2022 Bullpen Thread

[Maxbialystock]

1) Houck's first save was a 1-run lead, June 10 at Seattle.

2) Schreiber has moved up the trust ladder in a big hurry and will no doubt get some closing opportunities at some point.

3) Whitlock will be returning to the rotation, why would you think any differently?

 

Are you nuts? Are you completely and utterly crazy???? Never, ever suggest on talksox that Whitlock should start again because the Sox are knee deep in great starters and in dire need of relievers, especially closers.

[Old Red]

1) Houck's first save was a 1-run lead, June 10 at Seattle.

2) Schreiber has moved up the trust ladder in a big hurry and will no doubt get some closing opportunities at some point.

3) Whitlock will be returning to the rotation, why would you think any differently?

The starting rotation has survived without Whitlock, and Evol. Getting a one run save against the hard hitting Seattle team told you what? What has happened since then. Are you confident with Houck coming into the 9th inning at Yankee Stadium protecting a 1 run lead?

[Larry Cook]

1) Houck's first save was a 1-run lead, June 10 at Seattle.

2) Schreiber has moved up the trust ladder in a big hurry and will no doubt get some closing opportunities at some point.

3) Whitlock will be returning to the rotation, why would you think any differently?

 

When sale, Whitlock and eovaldi return, what will our 5 starters look like?

 

Sale

Eovaldi

Pivetta

Wacha

Whitlock or hill?

 

Tough choices ahead.

[Maxbialystock]

The starting rotation has survived without Whitlock, and Evol. Getting a one run save against the hard hitting Seattle team told you what? What has happened since then. Are you confident with Houck coming into the 9th inning at Yankee Stadium protecting a 1 run lead?

 

I wouldn't be confident with Kimbrel coming into the 9th inning vs. this year's Yankees with a 2 run lead, let alone 1.

 

I do now agree you've wanted Whitlock to close all along, but must state again why I agree with Cora's use of him--

 

1. Whitlock has never been a closer. Thus Bellhorn's telling comment that right now that Schreiber has moved rapidly up the trust ladder. Whitlock has never been on that ladder leading up to closing.

 

2. Whitlock was a great Rule 5 steal by Bloom precisely because of how he was used last year--almost never as a closer, but as a long reliever (73 innings in 46 games) and short reliever. His WAR was a stunning +2.9.

 

3. He has an excellent repertoire, which is why I think it's right to give him a shot at starting. Starters eat innings, or didn't you watch last night's game or any of Pivetta's other Quality Starts (he's had 9)? Closers do not eat innings, and, as I like to remind you, the rules of MLB allow opposing teams to score in all 9 innings (or more). That is in fact how the Sox won last night's game--they outscored the Guardians before the 9th inning.

 

4. Just my opinion, but I think the best closers have these attributes: two terrific pitches--fast ball (faster is better but Uehara's was like 88 mph) and breaking ball (knuckle curve, splitter, whatever); great command; fearlessness. This is Whitlock's second MLB season ever, so I don't think he has yet acquired great command or fearlessness, plus I think he prefers to use--as he should--that entire repertoire.

[Bellhorn04]

The starting rotation has survived without Whitlock, and Evol. Getting a one run save against the hard hitting Seattle team told you what? What has happened since then. Are you confident with Houck coming into the 9th inning at Yankee Stadium protecting a 1 run lead?

 

Repeating what Max said, a 1 run lead at YS in the 9th is tough for anyone.

 

Houck is a young guy who has just started in the closer role. He's had some rough moments but ultimately got the final outs.

 

Have some patience.

[Maxbialystock]

When sale, Whitlock and eovaldi return, what will our 5 starters look like?

 

Sale

Eovaldi

Pivetta

Wacha

Whitlock or hill?

 

Tough choices ahead.

 

I'm not sold on Hill even though I think his experience is valuable. To me he doesn't have enough pitches and/or command of the ones he has.

 

However, I do think Winckowski could be the 5th starter, in which case maybe Whitlock goes back to the bullpen.

 

I also think that Sale, despite his stunning career as a starter, remains a question mark. Last year, after extensive rehab, he struggled as a starter: 12 starts (including the postseason), 51.2 innings, 4.1 innings/start.

[Maxbialystock]

Repeating what Max said, a 1 run lead at YS in the 9th is tough for anyone.

 

Houck is a young guy who has just started in the closer role. He's had some rough moments but ultimately got the final outs.

 

Have some patience.

 

I have my doubts about Houck, but so far he has been without question our best closer.

[notin]

I'm not sold on Hill even though I think his experience is valuable. To me he doesn't have enough pitches and/or command of the ones he has.

 

However, I do think Winckowski could be the 5th starter, in which case maybe Whitlock goes back to the bullpen.

 

I also think that Sale, despite his stunning career as a starter, remains a question mark. Last year, after extensive rehab, he struggled as a starter: 12 starts (including the postseason), 51.2 innings, 4.1 innings/start.

 

 

Whitlock might also have an innings limit that necessitates a return to the bullpen at some point…

[dgalehouse]

Closin' ain't easy . The goal is to get the last out without giving up the lead. If you do that , your team wins the ballgame. You did your job. On pretty much a nightly basis , one or more closers fail in that effort. So far , Houck has gotten it done . The Sox are plainly committed to using Whitlock in the rotation , both now and in the future. I still think that Sale would be great in the closer's role. I think he could follow Eck's path to Cooperstown.

[moonslav59]

I'm not sold on Hill even though I think his experience is valuable. To me he doesn't have enough pitches and/or command of the ones he has.

 

However, I do think Winckowski could be the 5th starter, in which case maybe Whitlock goes back to the bullpen.

 

I also think that Sale, despite his stunning career as a starter, remains a question mark. Last year, after extensive rehab, he struggled as a starter: 12 starts (including the postseason), 51.2 innings, 4.1 innings/start.

 

I think Hill would be an excellent long man.

 

I thought Sale looked better than I expected out of the gate, last year but he did not get better.

 

Cora says his arm is now100%.

 

I could see him being a great closer but he’ll try starting first.

[Maxbialystock]

I think Hill would be an excellent long man.

 

I thought Sale looked better than I expected out of the gate, last year but he did not get better.

 

Cora says his arm is now100%.

 

I could see him being a great closer but he’ll try starting first.

 

To remind: I am a huge, huge Sale fan, an enormously professional and dedicated pitcher.

 

So, regardless of how much of the 2017 and 2018 Chris Sale he still has, he is still an asset. The question is, what suits him best?

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

I think Hill would be an excellent long man.

 

I thought Sale looked better than I expected out of the gate, last year but he did not get better.

 

Cora says his arm is now100%.

 

I could see him being a great closer but he’ll try starting first.

 

If Sale's arm is 100%, he's a starter. And if he comes back as the ACE, the SOX could have the best rotation in the AL.

[Larry Cook]

To remind: I am a huge, huge Sale fan, an enormously professional and dedicated pitcher.

 

So, regardless of how much of the 2017 and 2018 Chris Sale he still has, he is still an asset. The question is, what suits him best?

 

If sale’s secondary pitches have regained their sharpness then he is a premier starter.

 

But if he now only a fastball - slider pitcher, then he will be a reliever.

[moonslav59]

If sale’s secondary pitches have regained their sharpness then he is a premier starter.

 

But if he now only a fastball - slider pitcher, then he will be a reliever.

 

He could be a very effective starter with just 2 excellent pitches.

 

(I'm not sure why TJS would hurt a change-up pitch.)

[Bellhorn04]

Lots of fun to toy with the idea of Sale in the pen, but I guarantee that isn't Plan A.

[Larry Cook]

He could be a very effective starter with just 2 excellent pitches.

 

(I'm not sure why TJS would hurt a change-up pitch.)

 

Last year wasn’t it his change up and slider that he lost all sharpness?

 

Coaches seem to think the slider has returned this year. I have not heard about the change up!

[moonslav59]

Last year wasn’t it his change up and slider that he lost all sharpness?

 

Coaches seem to think the slider has returned this year. I have not heard about the change up!

 

I have not either,

[moonslav59]

Lots of fun to toy with the idea of Sale in the pen, but I guarantee that isn't Plan A.

 

I doubt it’s even been discussed.

[notin]

I doubt it’s even been discussed.

 

Before the season back when the Sox thought Sale was healthy, the plan appeared to me to be Sale-Eovaldi-Pivetta-Wacha-Hill in the rotation and both Houck and Whitlock in the pen. If that was the plan 3 months ago, why wouldn’t it be now?

[moonslav59]

Before the season back when the Sox thought Sale was healthy, the plan appeared to me to be Sale-Eovaldi-Pivetta-Wacha-Hill in the rotation and both Houck and Whitlock in the pen. If that was the plan 3 months ago, why wouldn’t it be now?

 

Especially when you consider the probably don’t want Whitlock over 180 IP by the end of the Sox season, which might be later than some think it will be..

[JDavis76]

Closin' ain't easy . The goal is to get the last out without giving up the lead. If you do that , your team wins the ballgame. You did your job. On pretty much a nightly basis , one or more closers fail in that effort. So far , Houck has gotten it done . The Sox are plainly committed to using Whitlock in the rotation , both now and in the future. I still think that Sale would be great in the closer's role. I think he could follow Eck's path to Cooperstown.

 

I sincerely doubt he makes it to the Hall.

[Maxbialystock]

He could be a very effective starter with just 2 excellent pitches.

 

(I'm not sure why TJS would hurt a change-up pitch.)

 

I don't think 2 is enough for a starter. I have read comments that so far Sale's changeup is looking pretty good. I think he needs 3 good pitches and excellent command to be an effective starter. What I will never doubt is his professionalism.

[Maxbialystock]

Especially when you consider the probably don’t want Whitlock over 180 IP by the end of the Sox season, which might be later than some think it will be..

 

I don't know where you got that 180 IP from, but it does make sense for a young pitcher in his second MLB season and first as a starter.

 

Given his repertoire of good pitches, I would continue to use him as a starter. Cora can always limit the innings, and the point is that 5 innings are a bunch--provided they're good ones--and better value than relief-pitching.

 

I will be happy with whatever Cora decides.

[moonslav59]

I don't know where you got that 180 IP from, but it does make sense for a young pitcher in his second MLB season and first as a starter.

 

Given his repertoire of good pitches, I would continue to use him as a starter. Cora can always limit the innings, and the point is that 5 innings are a bunch--provided they're good ones--and better value than relief-pitching.

 

I will be happy with whatever Cora decides.

 

I mentioned 180, thinking that might be on the high end of what top brass wants him to reach. It was arbitrary, on my part.

 

It might be more about pitches than innings.

[moonslav59]

I don't think 2 is enough for a starter. I have read comments that so far Sale's changeup is looking pretty good. I think he needs 3 good pitches and excellent command to be an effective starter. What I will never doubt is his professionalism.

 

Sale's 2 exc ellent pitches are enough to be a solid starter, IMO, but I think his change-up will return.

 

It's his professionalism and fierce competitiveness that makes me a believer he returns to near top form.

[JDavis76]

Sale's 2 exc ellent pitches are enough to be a solid starter, IMO, but I think his change-up will return.

 

It's his professionalism and fierce competitiveness that makes me a believer he returns to near top form.

 

And you've come to this conclusion after catching his rehab assignment?

[Maxbialystock]

And you've come to this conclusion after catching his rehab assignment?

 

Meh. We're all guessing/hoping. I've read reports his fastball is up to 96mph and that both his slider and his changeup are coming along. Plus of course, he's Chris Sale.

 

We won't really know until he's facing an MLB lineup in a real game.

 

So nothing wrong with doubting. But also nothing wrong with hoping/believing.

[JDavis76]

Meh. We're all guessing/hoping. I've read reports his fastball is up to 96mph and that both his slider and his changeup are coming along. Plus of course, he's Chris Sale.

 

We won't really know until he's facing an MLB lineup in a real game.

 

So nothing wrong with doubting. But also nothing wrong with hoping/believing.

 

Agreed, and that's why one should say "I hope his change-up will return". "I think" implies that there is some knowledge, while we all know it is just wishful thinking.

[Bellhorn04]

Agreed, and that's why one should say "I hope his change-up will return". "I think" implies that there is some knowledge, while we all know it is just wishful thinking.

 

He was throwing the change-up in his last rehab start.

 

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2022/06/25/chris-sale-rehab-outing-red-sox-rib-cage-injury-update-return-portland/

[JDavis76]

He was throwing the change-up in his last rehab start.

 

https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-red-sox/2022/06/25/chris-sale-rehab-outing-red-sox-rib-cage-injury-update-return-portland/

 

That's great, I can throw a change-up as well. That doesn't mean it's effective.