A Realistic View at 2021: Part II

[Maxbialystock]

Who was available and worse than Andriese?

 

Why do you keep insisting Cora and bullpen were the villains last night? The real reason the Sox lost was that the lineup scored just 2 earned runs in 11 innings, the last two of course with a man on 2b base and no one out.

 

Without the 2 unearned runs to keep them alive, the Sox lose last night in 9 innings. And before Cora finally went to Andriese, Workman miraculously held the A's scoreless in the 10th and 11th innings, but the Sox offense stunk yet again.

 

Plus you keep forgetting that today the Sox play their 13th game of 19 straight without a break, which weighs most heavily on the bullpen.

 

Last night you lost a ton of credibility when you said Cora's managing was so bad he must have bet on the game. You weren't serious about the betting, but you were serious that Cora was clueless in Oakland.

[Nick]

I'm not sure operations people are ready to 'replace' a starter unless it's with Sale.

 

It's possible someone like Houck may spot start to give starting arms a day of rest here and there.

 

I think we need to keep bringing up bullpen help and see if one or two sticks. They can come in on low leverage situations to start.

 

We need to lengthen bull pen depth if our starters are only going 5 innings. We're burning through bullpen arms when we have close games as we've had with the A's.

 

That will get worse once we start to play the other Big 3 in the stretch run.

 

We're not ready.

[dgalehouse]

Last night , the Sox had the audacity, the gall, the unmitigated gall to actually lose a game. An utter disgrace. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Changes need to be made. Now !!!!

[moonslav59]

Last night , the Sox had the audacity, the gall, the unmitigated gall to actually lose a game. An utter disgrace. They have absolutely no idea what they are doing. Changes need to be made. Now !!!!

 

nice.

[Nick]

nice.

 

Many of us enjoy analyzing the game and the team.

 

His hyperbole adds nothing to discussion.

 

Manager admits pen is being overworked.

 

Well what's the solution? To me it seems we need to rotate out arms with our minor league affiliates.

 

We can have civil conversation. It can't just be shut up because we're in 1st place. By the time you realize its a problem, it maybe too late.

[Elktonnick]

Many of us enj the Yanoy analyzing the game and the team.

 

His hyperbole adds nothing to discussion.

 

Manager admits pen is being overworked.

 

Well what's the solution? To me it seems we need to rotate out arms with our minor league affiliates.

 

We can have civil conversation. It can't just be shut up because we're in 1st place. By the time you realize its a problem, it maybe too late.

While we are grousing about losing one out of nine, The Chapman and the Yankees just blew another save and the Mets score 6 to drop the Yankees to .500. How much longer does Boone last?

[mvp 78]

The five Red Sox All-Stars are the most in MLB. Padres, Astros and Jays have four.

 

Bizarre: Texas has 3 and Oakland only 1.

[mvp 78]

So Barnes, Bogaerts, Devers, Eovaldi and Martinez are the Red Sox All-Stars.

[mvp 78]

While we are grousing about losing one out of nine, The Chapman and the Yankees just blew another save and the Mets score 6 to drop the Yankees to .500. How much longer does Boone last?

 

That’s like the nWo: too sweeeeeeet!

[dgalehouse]

So Barnes, Bogaerts, Devers, Eovaldi and Martinez are the Red Sox All-Stars.

 

Devers , Bogaerts and J.D. were no brainers. Good to see Barnes and Eovaldi get the recognition . Congrats to all . Well deserved.

[moonslav59]

Many of us enjoy analyzing the game and the team.

 

His hyperbole adds nothing to discussion.

 

Manager admits pen is being overworked.

 

Well what's the solution? To me it seems we need to rotate out arms with our minor league affiliates.

 

We can have civil conversation. It can't just be shut up because we're in 1st place. By the time you realize its a problem, it maybe too late.

 

I’m fine with civil discourse, but you and I both know it went beyond that in a game we barely lose after winning 7 straight.

 

We had guys screaming to bring in pitchers not even on the roster.

Cora bashing beyond civility.

Bloom bashing.

 

I thought the sarcastic post was fitting.

[Nick]

Gerrit Cole, Aroldis Chapman make All-Star Game after brutal Yankees loss

 

Gotta love New York papers....

[mvp 78]

I’m fine with civil discourse, but you and I both know it went beyond that in a game we barely lose after winning 7 straight.

 

We had guys screaming to bring in pitchers not even on the roster.

Cora bashing beyond civility.

Bloom bashing.

 

I thought the sarcastic post was fitting.

 

Moon… THIS IS ONLY A 53 WIN TEAM. They stink!

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Oakland only 1.

 

There is a great line in the movie Moneyball. The A's are trying to replace Giambi and Damon with less expensive players and they begin considering another player (Scott Hattenberg maybe?) and the scout says something like "he can't throw, he is slow and unathletic." Billy Beane's great response: "he sounds like an Oakland A already." LOL.

[oldtimer]

Pivetta had a wonderful 7 inning start. Bloom made a great acquisition in that one. Pulling out a 1 to 0 win with both Bogaerts and Renfroe being rested was an accomplishment. The announcers mentioned Arroyo was on his return to the Sox and will be available tomorrow. I assume Chavis will be sent down. He played today and chased the ball out of the zone. To bad for him, but to me he looked like the weakest hitter today. While Santana went 0 for, at least he put the ball in play.

 

With Barnes throwing again today, he may be unavailable to pitch in the first two games against the Angels. Whitlock also won't pitch tomorrow. Perhaps the Sox will bring up BP help although Cora is still supporting Andriese's cause.

[Nick]

Pivetta had a wonderful 7 inning start. Bloom made a great acquisition in that one. Pulling out a 1 to 0 win with both Bogaerts and Renfroe being rested was an accomplishment. The announcers mentioned Arroyo was on his return to the Sox and will be available tomorrow. I assume Chavis will be sent down. He played today and chased the ball out of the zone. To bad for him, but to me he looked like the weakest hitter today. While Santana went 0 for, at least he put the ball in play.

 

With Barnes throwing again today, he may be unavailable to pitch in the first two games against the Angels. Whitlock also won't pitch tomorrow. Perhaps the Sox will bring up BP help although Cora is still supporting Andriese's cause.

 

I think it's okay talk about how to improve the team. If the answer is Bloom and Cora have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know then there's not much point in being here.

 

Not long ago it was said that our pen was rested and now we're little worn out.

 

There's probably only two solutions to the problem. Stay with starters little longer. In that case Cora should have left E Rod for another inning the other day. Or rotate out lesser BP arms with pitchers on 40 man roster. The team can't complain and do nothing about it.

 

It was good to see Whitlock pitch the 8th inning. More reliable arms in later innings the better.

Edited July 5, 2021 by Nick

[Maxbialystock]

I think it's okay talk about how to improve the team. If the answer is Bloom and Cora have forgotten more about baseball than you will ever know then there's not much point in being here.

 

Not long ago it was said that our pen was rested and now we're little worn out.

 

There's probably only two solutions to the problem. Stay with starters little longer. In that case Cora should have left E Rod for another inning the other day. Or rotate out lesser BP arms with pitchers on 40 man roster. The team can't complain and do nothing about it.

 

It was good to see Whitlock pitch the 8th inning. More reliable arms in later innings the better.

 

Talk away. It's a free board.

 

But don't for one second think you can convince me this team is in dire need of fixing, not when they just won 8 straight, lost a close one which never should have gotten to extra innings but for those two A's errors, and now have started another streak--to say nothing of having the best record in the AL and a 4.5 game lead over the Rays, 8.5 over the Jays, etc.

 

This team has just played it's 13th straight game without a break. They are about to play 6 more. Of course the bullpen is tired. Cora used the heck out of them to get those 8 straight. Andriese even pitched in one of them when it made no difference, which is mostly what he has done for at least a month. He stinks.

 

However, the Sox bullpen still has Barnes, Ottavino, Whitlock, Taylor, Hernandez, Sawamura, and Workman. That's seven pretty decent relievers, all with + WAR's ranging from +.6 (Sawamura and Workman) to +1.3 (Whitlock). They are a big reason why the Sox won 8 straight, the Sox lead the AL, etc.

[Larry Cook]

At some point sale comes back, someone has to go to the bullpen and someone had to go to triple a.

 

At some point brazier could come back and someone else has to go to triple a.

 

Could be hang’em Chaim is waiting for internal reinforcements

[SPLENDIDSPLINTER]

There is a great line in the movie Moneyball. The A's are trying to replace Giambi and Damon with less expensive players and they begin considering another player (Scott Hattenberg maybe?) and the scout says something like "he can't throw, he is slow and unathletic." Billy Beane's great response: "he sounds like an Oakland A already." LOL.

 

That is funny. It's really got to be difficult to build a successful baseball team with a limited budget that's actually playing their games on a football field. Just added proof of how great a GM Billy Beane is and always has been.

[mvp 78]

There is a great line in the movie Moneyball. The A's are trying to replace Giambi and Damon with less expensive players and they begin considering another player (Scott Hattenberg maybe?) and the scout says something like "he can't throw, he is slow and unathletic." Billy Beane's great response: "he sounds like an Oakland A already." LOL.

 

In retrospect, Beane did an ok job, but definitely not as otherworldly as the book portends.

[mvp 78]

In retrospect, Beane did an ok job, but definitely not as otherworldly as the book portends.

 

The Jeremy Brown stuff is f***ing hilarious.

[moonslav59]

We have a lot of options in the system, now and some more once they get healthy or "ML ready."

 

P

Sale

Brasier

Houck

Valdez

Bazardo

Ort (not on 40 man, now)

McCarthy/Seabold

 

C

Plawecki or Wong

 

1B

Cordero, Ockimey (not on 40 man, now)

 

1B/2B

Chavis (once Arroyo pushes him back to AAA)

 

2B/SS

Arauz, Downs?

 

3B

Chavis, Lopez & Munoz (not on 40 man, now)

 

OF

Cordero, Duran & Wilson(not on 40 man, now)

 

Santana, Andriese and Rios may be on a very short leash.

 

I'm not sure Workman is, anymore.

 

[Nick]

Talk away. It's a free board.

 

But don't for one second think you can convince me this team is in dire need of fixing, not when they just won 8 straight, lost a close one which never should have gotten to extra innings but for those two A's errors, and now have started another streak--to say nothing of having the best record in the AL and a 4.5 game lead over the Rays, 8.5 over the Jays, etc.

 

This team has just played it's 13th straight game without a break. They are about to play 6 more. Of course the bullpen is tired. Cora used the heck out of them to get those 8 straight. Andriese even pitched in one of them when it made no difference, which is mostly what he has done for at least a month. He stinks.

 

However, the Sox bullpen still has Barnes, Ottavino, Whitlock, Taylor, Hernandez, Sawamura, and Workman. That's seven pretty decent relievers, all with + WAR's ranging from +.6 (Sawamura and Workman) to +1.3 (Whitlock). They are a big reason why the Sox won 8 straight, the Sox lead the AL, etc.

 

You're telling me nothing I don't know. We're having a great season. We have top people in Bloom and Cora.

 

I was the first poster to argue that Whitlock was special. That he was being underutilized. Check it. He now pitches in high leverage situations.

 

You're smart guy, you think everything is great? Do you think our pitching right now is good enough to beat the Astros? How about Blue Jays? Our pitching may get by offensively impotent A's but I'm not sure it'll hold against top hitting ball clubs.

 

If you paid any attention, Workman was getting hammered last night and he was very lucky to get through his two innings.

 

My guess is Bloom is waiting for both Houck and Brasier at some point to get healthy enough to be called up.

 

But to pretend we have kick ass team because of our record is not comforting.

 

I've said often, I'm just asking for little tweak at the lower level of our 26 man roster.

[moonslav59]

The tweaks are coming.

 

Maybe not fast enough for some, but they are coming, soon.

[moonslav59]

As of right now, I doubt our bottom 3-4 players on the 26 man roster are worse than most AL contending teams' bottom 3-4, especially when our injured players return.

 

I'm happy with Wong or Plawecki as the back-up catcher.

 

We'll be better when Arroyo replaces Chavis or Santana, soon.

 

At some point, Cordero or Duran will replace Santana or Chavis.

 

If, by the deadline, Dalbec or a Dalbec/Marwin/Cordero combo is not working at 1B,we can find a cheap rental to take over.

 

Our pitching moves are a bit more complex due to options remaining, keeping as many options open as possible and an uncertain timetable on when some of our pitchers will be healthy and ready.

 

No starter is doing poorly over their last 2 or more starts, so when Sale returns, someone may give a nice boost to the pen. Houck, Brasier, Valdez, Bazardo and maybe Ort offer more hope and promise than Andriese, Rios and Workman. If several come through, we may even be able to handle a couple ILs from the pen. We may also pick up a RP'er at the deadline, if needed.

 

I can understand the sense of urgency many are feeling, right now. I feel it, too. I think Bloom & Cora know what they are doing. They are going to make moves, soon. I am sure of it.

Edited July 5, 2021 by moonslav59

[Nick]

As of right now, I doubt our bottom 3-4 players on the 26 man roster are worse than most AL contending teams' bottom 3-4, especially when our injured players return.

 

I'm happy with Wong or Plawecki as the back-up catcher.

 

We'll be better when Arroyo replaces Chavis or Santana, soon.

 

At some point, Cordero or Duran will replace Santana or Chavis.

 

If, by the deadline, Dalbec or a Dalbec/Marwin/Cordero combo is not working at 1B,we can find a cheap rental to take over.

 

Our pitching moves are a bit more complex due to options remaining, keeping as many options open as possible and an uncertain timetable on when some of our pitchers will be healthy and ready.

 

No starter is doing poorly over their last 2 or more starts, so when Sale returns, someone may give a nice boost to the pen. Houck, Brasier, Valdez, Bazardo and maybe Ort offer more hope and promise than Andriese, Rios and Workman. If several come through, we may even be able to handle a couple ILs from the pen. We may also pick up a RP'er at the deadline, if needed.

 

I can understand the sense of urgency many are feeling, right now. I feel it, too. I think Bloom & Cora know what they are doing. They are going to make moves, soon. I am sure of it.

 

As always thanks for your thoughtful response. And I agree with everything you said.

 

Cora will never, ever, throw a player under the bus. He's a player's manager. That said, I'm sure there's much discussion about few of the players on our 26 man roster.

How to make the team better is 24/7/365 conversation for Bloom and baseball people.

 

Best thing about 2021 Red Sox is that they can get better internally, ie have not reached their ceiling as a team, despite having more wins than anyone else. That's pretty comforting thought.

[mvp 78]

The tweaks are coming.

 

Maybe not fast enough for some, but they are coming, soon.

 

In first place by 4.5 games.

[Fan_since_Boggs]

Since returning, Houck has an ERA of 3.07 with 19 strikeouts and three walks (14 2/3 innings).

 

---------------------

 

With N.Yorke taking off at Salem, I'm starting to see Jeter Downs as the Red Sox best trade chip. I wouldn't trade Downs for a rental, however.

 

Chavis is a trade chip too with considerable less value than Downs.

 

Dalbec would also be a trade chip if the Red Sox acquire a starting 1b. I would offer Dalbec and Chris Murphy to the Royals for Santana and Zimmer. Get it done!

[moonslav59]

As always thanks for your thoughtful response. And I agree with everything you said.

 

Cora will never, ever, throw a player under the bus. He's a player's manager. That said, I'm sure there's much discussion about few of the players on our 26 man roster.

How to make the team better is 24/7/365 conversation for Bloom and baseball people.

 

Best thing about 2021 Red Sox is that they can get better internally, ie have not reached their ceiling as a team, despite having more wins than anyone else. That's pretty comforting thought.

 

It's a long season, and keeping as many options on the table has merit, even some that appear to be God-awful, right now. Theymust see some hope or promise in Andriese, Rios and Santana (Workman).

 

I don't know if anyone knows, for sure, what happened to Valdez, but they suddenly stopped using him, then demoted him.

 

I think they feel obligated to give Chavis a few looks- same with Cordero, and I can't blame them.

 

We can all look back and see how awful 3-4 players have been and say, "we can do better," but it's really about how long a look not about getting a look, and I think that is where the real debate is or should be.

 

Size of opportunity.

[moonslav59]

Starter trends,,,

 

Note: sample sizes are cherry-picked and vary in length.

 

Eovaldi

3.63 first 6 games

6.46 next 3 starts

2.27 last 8 starts

 

Pivetta

3.16 first 8 starts

6.08 middle 5 starts

3.52 last 4 starts

 

Perez

3.09 after 11 starts

29.70 next 2 starts

1.93 last 3 starts

 

ERod

3.51 after 4 starts (3.82 after 6)

7.63 next 9 starts

2.50 last 3 starts

(3.18 ERA first 6 + last 3 vs 8.55 middle 7)

 

Richards

3.75 after first 11 starts

8.31 next 5 starts

3.60 last 1 start