2020-2021 Offseason Thread

[notin]

What he represented in this post was "why can't the Sox keep their good players?" He was sold at his highest value. Beni and JBJ are better.

 

He was dealt to get Kimbrel, which was a clear attempt to fill a void on the Sox. And a rare one to be addressed by Dombrowski.

 

But let's not pretend the impact of departing players begins and ends with their stats on other teams...

[Nick]

Only player I want back from DD deals is Kopech....I still think he'll have a stellar career. But we did what we did to get Sale on his OLD contract. That was still a good trade.

[mvp 78]

He was dealt to get Kimbrel, which was a clear attempt to fill a void on the Sox. And a rare one to be addressed by Dombrowski.

 

But let's not pretend the impact of departing players begins and ends with their stats on other teams...

 

The impact on sending out prospects (that are worse than the ones you kept) to fill a glaring need and help you win a WS seems like a good thing. Nitpick about the other deals if you want, but the Sale and Kimbrel deals I do over and over again.

[notin]

Pillar, or any of the other guys we keep hearing of to replace JBJ for much less money.

 

I think the difference thee was 1) JBJ was here and a known commodity and 2) for one year, the money did not make a difference with resetting since they had clear plans to not sign anyone else and to move Mookie and as much of Price as possible. It is possible that before JBJ was tendered, conversations with the Dodgers had already started. Those kinds of deals just don't happen on one phone call...

[Nick]

Pillar, or any of the other guys we keep hearing of to replace JBJ for much less money.

"Tanks for the Memories"......Classic...my coffee just came out of my mouth...

[notin]

The impact on sending out prospects (that are worse than the ones you kept) to fill a glaring need and help you win a WS seems like a good thing. Nitpick about the other deals if you want, but the Sale and Kimbrel deals I do over and over again.

 

I was much more OK with Sale, as he was younger and on an insanely good deal and an elite SP. Kimbrel I felt was an overpay for taking that contract from the Padres, and while the Sox biggest pitching weakness in 2015 was actually the bullpen more so than the rotation, the one role in the bullpen that still looked solid was closer, as they still had Uehara, who was coming off a stellar season even at age 40...

[Nick]

Do we try to extend E Rod in off season? Do we sign and trade him? I can see the latter happening.

[notin]

Only player I want back from DD deals is Kopech....I still think he'll have a stellar career. But we did what we did to get Sale on his OLD contract. That was still a good trade.

 

Kopech is off to a start that makes me think he will be Eovaldi 2.0. That's fine for a while. Just don't go signing him to a 4 year $68mill extension and hope he is going to actually be able to pitch...

[Bellhorn04]

Do we try to extend E Rod in off season? Do we sign and trade him? I can see the latter happening.

 

His doctors are going to be important factors in the call.

[Nick]

The impact on sending out prospects (that are worse than the ones you kept) to fill a glaring need and help you win a WS seems like a good thing. Nitpick about the other deals if you want, but the Sale and Kimbrel deals I do over and over again.

 

Yep, Yep, Yep....3 last places in 4 years. What did anyone expect DD to do? Stay the course? Henry didn't hire DD to improve to 4th place in standings. DD did his job, Henry no longer needed him, adios.

 

That's how the business world works. No lifetime job guaranty.

[notin]

Do we try to extend E Rod in off season? Do we sign and trade him? I can see the latter happening.

 

Sign and trade? That's the NBA where they do that.

 

ERod will likely be tendered a contract if he passes a physical of some sort. If he doesn't pass whatever the criteria, no point in signing him. If he does, he helps fill the biggest need on the team...

[Bellhorn04]

Kopech is off to a start that makes me think he will be Eovaldi 2.0. That's fine for a while. Just don't go signing him to a 4 year $68mill extension and hope he is going to actually be able to pitch...

 

Eovaldi was second on the team in innings pitched.

[Nick]

Kopech is off to a start that makes me think he will be Eovaldi 2.0. That's fine for a while. Just don't go signing him to a 4 year $68mill extension and hope he is going to actually be able to pitch...

 

Well Kopech hasn't done anything to deserve a 4 year $68M extension. I just liked him.....we'll see about his injury but your're right. I just liked the guy when he was traded to White Sox. Obviously DD knew about Devers and Moncada was expendable because we already had a second baseman....Pedey.......oh wait...

[mvp 78]

I was much more OK with Sale, as he was younger and on an insanely good deal and an elite SP. Kimbrel I felt was an overpay for taking that contract from the Padres, and while the Sox biggest pitching weakness in 2015 was actually the bullpen more so than the rotation, the one role in the bullpen that still looked solid was closer, as they still had Uehara, who was coming off a stellar season even at age 40...

 

Kimbrel was a 3x All Star from 2016 - 2018.

 

Uehara retired two years after Kimbrel was signed. They needed a longer term solution in the closer spot.

 

After the Kimbrel trade, Uehara had 9 saves for the remainder of his career. Kimbrel had 31, 35 and 42 for the Sox.

[notin]

Well Kopech hasn't done anything to deserve a 4 year $68M extension. I just liked him.....we'll see about his injury but your're right. I just liked the guy when he was traded to White Sox. Obviously DD knew about Devers and Moncada was expendable because we already had a second baseman....Pedey.......oh wait...

 

They had already move Moncada off second. Yoan did have an abysmal debut in Boston, but I doubt that was why he was traded; Pedroia had a rough start his first call up, too.

 

Moncada and Kopech were traded simply because Sale was not coming cheap...

[Nick]

I've been impressed with Bloom so far.....his every move makes the team better....glad he's on our side...

[notin]

Kimbrel was a 3x All Star from 2016 - 2018.

 

Uehara retired two years after Kimbrel was signed. They needed a longer term solution in the closer spot.

 

After the Kimbrel trade, Uehara had 9 saves for the remainder of his career. Kimbrel had 31, 35 and 42 for the Sox.

 

And you don't think the presence of Kimbrel had any impact on the amount of saves for Uehara?

 

And really, who pitched better between the two in 2016?

 

Kimbrel was a lot younger and Uehara was clearly winding down a brilliant MLB career. But closer was not the Sox top need...

[Nick]

They had already move Moncada off second. Yoan did have an abysmal debut in Boston, but I doubt that was why he was traded; Pedroia had a rough start his first call up, too.

 

Moncada and Kopech were traded simply because Sale was not coming cheap...

 

There was much debate on this board about bringing up Moncada....several arguments against it....not ready, damage his psyche, etc. I'm glad he got an audition just to find out what he was made of....he played third because of second base being blocked by Dustin. He made his audition. Devers was deemed to be better so they had no problem including him in the deal. The one I hated to see go was Kopech.

[mvp 78]

And you don't think the presence of Kimbrel had any impact on the amount of saves for Uehara?

 

And really, who pitched better between the two in 2016?

 

Kimbrel was a lot younger and Uehara was clearly winding down a brilliant MLB career. But closer was not the Sox top need...

 

For one year? Maybe. For 2017, nope.

[mvp 78]

And Uehara and Kimbrel both pitched about the same in 2016.

[notin]

And Uehara and Kimbrel both pitched about the same in 2016.

 

My point exactly!!

[Bellhorn04]

My point exactly!!

 

Remember when I said how bad the 2015 pitching rotation was, and you said it was actually the bullpen that was atrocious?

[harmony]

I've been impressed with Bloom so far.....his every move makes the team better....glad he's on our side...

FWIW I concur.

[notin]

Remember when I said how bad the 2015 pitching rotation was, and you said it was actually the bullpen that was atrocious?

 

And that is true. I even mentioned it earlier today.

 

But that diesn't mean you go all in for a closer. Bullpens run 7 to 8 pitchers deep these days, and addressing a bullpen solely by trying to improve a ninth inning specialist is not necessarily the best way to go, even with the trickle down effect (of moving Koji to earlier innings). And as the objections to acquiring Kimbrel were largely the impact it had on the farm system and the overall cost and impact on team payroll, this was overkill, to be kind. A bit like fishing with dynamite, except in this case it substituting the TNT with C-4.

 

Could the Sox have acquired other bullpen arms who were not among the highest paid in the game and without giving up farm talent (needed to maintain an economic balance on the team) that off-season? DD did try that route as well, and while he failed miserably, the reasons why were not on him. (I liked the deals that brought Thornburg and Smith to the Sox, despite neither working out.)

 

But instead of Kimbrel, there were other relievers the Sox could have grabbed for a lot less while leaving Koji in the closer role.

 

My observations on pitcher acquisition is teams are better off trading for starters and signing closers. Even the best closers who get the bigger contract at least only get them for shorter terms....

[Bellhorn04]

And that is true. I even mentioned it earlier today.

 

But that diesn't mean you go all in for a closer. Bullpens run 7 to 8 pitchers deep these days, and addressing a bullpen solely by trying to improve a ninth inning specialist is not necessarily the best way to go, even with the trickle down effect (of moving Koji to earlier innings). And as the objections to acquiring Kimbrel were largely the impact it had on the farm system and the overall cost and impact on team payroll, this was overkill, to be kind. A bit like fishing with dynamite, except in this case it substituting the TNT with C-4.

 

Could the Sox have acquired other bullpen arms who were not among the highest paid in the game and without giving up farm talent (needed to maintain an economic balance on the team) that off-season? DD did try that route as well, and while he failed miserably, the reasons why were not on him. (I liked the deals that brought Thornburg and Smith to the Sox, despite neither working out.)

 

But instead of Kimbrel, there were other relievers the Sox could have grabbed for a lot less while leaving Koji in the closer role.

 

My observations on pitcher acquisition is teams are better off trading for starters and signing closers. Even the best closers who get the bigger contract at least only get them for shorter terms....

 

DD overpaid in prospects for Kimbrel, but I maintain that the contract itself was excellent.

[mvp 78]

My point exactly!!

 

But then what about the year after? Kimbrel was available in 2016, maybe not in 2017.

[notin]

DD overpaid in prospects for Kimbrel, but I maintain that the contract itself was excellent.

 

The contract was fine. The prosepct payment for a reliever not among the highest paid probably would have been fine too. but going overboard on both counts, especially for a specialty pitcher to fill the one bullpen role that wasactually working, felt unwise.

 

That's why I liked the Thornburg trade at the time. The Sox did give up a lot, but for a pitcher that was not going to bog down payroll. But then Thornburg's later injury made it a moot point, which I don't fault Dombrowski for...

[mvp 78]

The contract was fine. The prosepct payment for a reliever not among the highest paid probably would have been fine too. but going overboard on both counts, especially for a specialty pitcher to fill the one bullpen role that wasactually working, felt unwise.

 

That's why I liked the Thornburg trade at the time. The Sox did give up a lot, but for a pitcher that was not going to bog down payroll. But then Thornburg's later injury made it a moot point, which I don't fault Dombrowski for...

 

Before the Kimbrel trade in 2015, the Sox bullpen was 20th in bWAR. 21st in save %. 11 highest in BS.

 

They weren't a good pen. Well below average.

[notin]

But then what about the year after? Kimbrel was available in 2016, maybe not in 2017.

 

Uehara could have closed in 2017. He declined a bit and was not as effective as Kiimbrel, but he was certainly still good.

 

Kimbrel was great in 2017 and the first half of 2018, but then he just fell off a cliff and was not even closing when the won the WS. His postseason that year was questionable at best...

[notin]

Before the Kimbrel trade in 2015, the Sox bullpen was 20th in bWAR. 21st in save %. 11 highest in BS.

 

They weren't a good pen. Well below average.

 

True.

 

But a lot of that was the littany of weak pitchers not named Uehara...