JDM says absolutely no cheating and team will be cleared

[Elktonnick]

This is a classic case of 'begging the question' (i.e., assuming one's conclusion).

Hardly! I assume nothing. The regulatory authority in this case the commissioner issued a fiat which he was legally empowered to do. In that directive he specifically prohibited and defined the proper and improper use of electronic measures. He determined by investigative means that the Astros improperly used electronic devices in violation of the rules of baseball. This fits the definition of cheating as I cited in my post.

It hardly meets the definition of begging the question as it is generally understood.

[notin]

We don't have to wait for the Boston Report to know that Manfred is tailoring this to an outcome. We can see it in the Houston Report:

- the Houston report completely exonerates Ownership and Upper Management which basically firewalls Ownership

 

What if the extremely likely scenario existed where Ownership knew nothing about this? MLB focused on the guilty parties (on the field) and decided Hindu and Cora created an atmosphere of tolerance, effectively saying the guilty players were following orders. That the Astros fired Luhnow anyway shows that this firewall is meaningless and they will hold upper management accountable.

 

Also, they did fine the team $5 million, which is presumably paid by ownership. While this amount is probably trivial to the billionaires running teams, it’s also the maximum allowable fine.

 

And they lessened their product on the field in the future by taking away draft picks.

 

 

- No active players named or suspended or sanctioned in any way when we know PLAYERS in the batters box knew what to listen for to get the signs and in some instances it was PLAYERS in the dugout walkway banging on a trash can. One "retired" player called out. Whoopdie-dingdong!

 

So who do you think MLB is protecting exactly? Upper management? Or players? Or both? That leaves only coaching staff as vulnerable.

 

This is not the same as a PED scandal where players individuals fail a documented drug test attached to their names. Their attitude was a bad culture and they punished those associated with creating or tolerating that culture.

 

They do want the Astros to field a team at some point in 2020.

 

So sorry but Manfred has already proven lacking before we even get to the Boston Report.

 

Exactly how should the Astros have been punished by Manfred?

[Elktonnick]

I scoured the internet dictionaries for definitions, but nothing cited technology within the context of a professional sports milieu...

 

The commissioner supplied all teams with video, which he said was ok to use to look at the past and the present, but not for the future. A lot of guys still used tech in the past to look at the then-present for the future, which they're paying for now in the present... but you can bet tech will continue to be used in the future (and don't be surprised if some of these present scapegoats will be back in the future). It's convoluted, because the only thing black-and-white about this whole issue is Manfred said stop, many didn't, and he's apparently making an example of a few that won.

 

Curt Schilling recently said, "That system would have made me easy to face in October" -- which is understandable, and I'm not defending the use of video. But Schilling also once defined good pitching as "deceiving batters to take strikes and swing at balls."

 

I'm not a Cora apologist; he chose not to follow an edict and paid the price. But I am a baseball apologist, in that I acknowledge the game has always been about secret codes and deception and seeking an edge -- everybody does that -- and I can't imagine that ever changing.

Every parent has their child say to them "but everyone does it." When our children said it to us our reply was "that doesn't make it right"

There is no excuse for cheating. It destroys the integrity of the game. What Cora did was cheating. All the the rhetoric is an attempt to obfuscate the truth. Baseball has rules. There is a right way and a wrong way to play the game. What Cora and the Astros did was the wrong way.

[notin]

Every parent has their child say to them "but everyone does it." When our children said it to us our reply was "that doesn't make it right"

There is no excuse for cheating. It destroys the integrity of the game. What Cora did was cheating. All the the rhetoric is an attempt to obfuscate the truth. Baseball has rules. There is a right way and a wrong way to play the game. What Cora and the Astros did was the wrong way.

 

I agree with this. Especially since you added about Cora "with the Astros." That story has come out and been corroborated.

 

At some point in the future, we might be able to add "and then later with the Red Sox." I'm not there yet, but then I'm not one to assume guilt for everything. I can wait a bit longer to find out what happened...

[Elktonnick]

I agree with this. Especially since you added about Cora "with the Astros." That story has come out and been corroborated.

 

At some point in the future, we might be able to add "and then later with the Red Sox." I'm not there yet, but then I'm not one to assume guilt for everything. I can wait a bit longer to find out what happened...

 

I agree that the jury is still out on the Red Sox. While there is reason to believe the may be guilty there is certainly evidence to believe they are not. So we have to wait.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Some are positive their opinions are facts, especially about labels. Mine is that there are a lot of grays in games where one side tries to beat another, especially when the rules keep changing.

 

I had someone who doesn't play baseball argue with me that it was ok for a batter to detect if a pitcher was tipping pitches for his own at bats, but it was conspiratorial if the batter went back to the dugout and revealed the info to all his teammates...

[harmony]

I agree that the jury is still out on the Red Sox. While there is reason to believe the may be guilty there is certainly evidence to believe they are not. So we have to wait.

Absolutely.

 

J.D. Martinez does not have the final say (although he may be right).

[Elktonnick]

Some are positive their opinions are facts, especially about labels. Mine is that there are a lot of grays in games where one side tries to beat another, especially when the rules keep changing.

 

I had someone who doesn't play baseball argue with me that it was ok for a batter to detect if a pitcher was tipping pitches for his own at bats, but it was conspiratorial if the batter went back to the dugout and revealed the info to all his teammates...

The rules are pretty clear cut. I have yet to hear any one involved in the game at the professional level argue that the rules or the commissioner's memo are unclear as to what is legal and what is not.

[jacksonianmarch]

The problem with Manfred punishing players is that punishments aren’t spelled out in the CBA, so he’d have to use the “best interests of the game” clause and that would be pretty problematic for him long term. He used it for ARod, but you only use that when you absolutely have to. Also, who do you punish? If The whole team did it, you cannot just eliminate the Astros MLB squad and force them to play scabs for 2020. That would kill the business In that market, which is counterintuitive to the best interests of the game. By firing a manager, a GM and pulling picks, you don’t damage the product on the field for the most part and you don’t have to battle with the MLBPA. Two less picks in a draft aren’t going to hinder guys becoming ball players. The lost draft capital will mildly help the teams picking behind them as they move up a spot. Baseball can backfill the manager and GM roles easily. In essence, the punishment is nothing outside of draft loss and that doesn’t affect MLB on the whole. This is why he gave players immunity.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Try explaining to kids of the video age that the MLB says it's ok to "steal" signs by looking with your eyes, but not ok by looking with your eyes at video.

[Elktonnick]

Try explaining to kids of the video age that the MLB says it's ok to "steal" signs by looking with your eyes, but not ok by looking with your eyes at video.

 

It is easy because Daddy said so.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

It is easy because Daddy said so.

 

Ya, that always works. You just lost all credibility with anyone under 30 (wait -- Alexa, how old is Siri?)

[Elktonnick]

Ya, that always works. You just lost all credibility with anyone under 30 (wait -- Alexa, how old is Siri?)

I hardly think so.. Even those under 30 understand the need for rules unless they are anarchists.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Or adolescents glued to screens... or old guys unglued because of screens...

[jad]

Every parent has their child say to them "but everyone does it." When our children said it to us our reply was "that doesn't make it right"

There is no excuse for cheating. It destroys the integrity of the game. What Cora did was cheating. All the the rhetoric is an attempt to obfuscate the truth. Baseball has rules. There is a right way and a wrong way to play the game. What Cora and the Astros did was the wrong way.

 

Balderdash! There is no absolute difference between 'cheating/non-cheating'. How is spending 5x as much as competing teams 'fair'? Isn't that cheating? (not in baseball, but it is not allowed in NFL or NBA). What about holding in football? (illegal! happens every play. Is surreptitiously holding an example of cheating?) How about tennis? yelling is illegal, grunting is ok? Using a timeout to ice a kicker--gamesmanship? or cheating? Did you ever hear Michael Jordan talk about the illegal hand-checks he used to use on driving opponents to throw their shot off? (SHould he be banned?) Flopping on 3-pt. shots? Goalie interference in hockey? Quick-pitching in baseball or quick-serving in tennis? Throwing inside in baseball? How about at a batter's chin? Paying a player in the NCAA or giving athletes benefits not available to other students? (this happens every day). How about admitting athletes with few to no academic skills to college in the first place? ...

[notin]

The problem with Manfred punishing players is that punishments aren’t spelled out in the CBA, so he’d have to use the “best interests of the game” clause and that would be pretty problematic for him long term. He used it for ARod, but you only use that when you absolutely have to. Also, who do you punish? If The whole team did it, you cannot just eliminate the Astros MLB squad and force them to play scabs for 2020. That would kill the business In that market, which is counterintuitive to the best interests of the game. By firing a manager, a GM and pulling picks, you don’t damage the product on the field for the most part and you don’t have to battle with the MLBPA. Two less picks in a draft aren’t going to hinder guys becoming ball players. The lost draft capital will mildly help the teams picking behind them as they move up a spot. Baseball can backfill the manager and GM roles easily. In essence, the punishment is nothing outside of draft loss and that doesn’t affect MLB on the whole. This is why he gave players immunity.

 

The real loss isn’t so much the draft picks as it is the associated slot money, the loss of which can impact the entire draft...

[harmony]

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/83163454_10219234574328041_1713907244929646592_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=j4JecTbgSNoAX9oF5th&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=a1cbe5fc54f5c57fa96a2808e0af4ee9&oe=5EA57375

[Elktonnick]

Balderdash! There is no absolute difference between 'cheating/non-cheating'. How is spending 5x as much as competing teams 'fair'? Isn't that cheating? (not in baseball, but it is not allowed in NFL or NBA). What about holding in football? (illegal! happens every play. Is surreptitiously holding an example of cheating?) How about tennis? yelling is illegal, grunting is ok? Using a timeout to ice a kicker--gamesmanship? or cheating? Did you ever hear Michael Jordan talk about the illegal hand-checks he used to use on driving opponents to throw their shot off? (SHould he be banned?) Flopping on 3-pt. shots? Goalie interference in hockey? Quick-pitching in baseball or quick-serving in tennis? Throwing inside in baseball? How about at a batter's chin? Paying a player in the NCAA or giving athletes benefits not available to other students? (this happens every day). How about admitting athletes with few to no academic skills to college in the first place? ...

Most of your post is either pure sophistry or an angry rant, hardly worth a considered response. However. ,being philosophical, you may find the words of St. Thomas Aquinas helpful. To paraphrase him, "Life is Tough".

[Elktonnick]

https://scontent-sea1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/83163454_10219234574328041_1713907244929646592_n.jpg?_nc_cat=108&_nc_ohc=j4jectbgsnoax9of5th&_nc_ht=scontent-sea1-1.xx&oh=a1cbe5fc54f5c57fa96a2808e0af4ee9&oe=5ea57375

 

lmfao

[jung]

What if the extremely likely scenario existed where Ownership knew nothing about this? MLB focused on the guilty parties (on the field) and decided Hindu and Cora created an atmosphere of tolerance, effectively saying the guilty players were following orders. That the Astros fired Luhnow anyway shows that this firewall is meaningless and they will hold upper management accountable.

 

Also, they did fine the team $5 million, which is presumably paid by ownership. While this amount is probably trivial to the billionaires running teams, it’s also the maximum allowable fine.

 

And they lessened their product on the field in the future by taking away draft picks.

 

 

 

 

So who do you think MLB is protecting exactly? Upper management? Or players? Or both? That leaves only coaching staff as vulnerable.

 

This is not the same as a PED scandal where players individuals fail a documented drug test attached to their names. Their attitude was a bad culture and they punished those associated with creating or tolerating that culture.

 

They do want the Astros to field a team at some point in 2020.

 

 

 

Exactly how should the Astros have been punished by Manfred?

 

Upper Management, Ownership and the players. Protecting Upper Management creates a firewall between field and general management and Ownership. Guys banging on a trash can in the tunnel and neither Upper Management or Ownership has a question about that???? MY ASS.

 

As for the players, they could not suspend them and they likely could not fine them. But they could sanction them. They should have been called out by name, each and every one of them if each and every team member was involved in some way. Hard to imagine that the core of that batting order if not the entire batting order 1-9 was not involved up to their eyeballs. Who was banging on the trash can in the tunnel? I want names. I could imagine some of the bench players just not playing along. Its not hard to review the video and audio feeds from games and see who was at the plate when signaling (trash can bashing) was going on.

 

Ultimately, they should have been able to review enough audio and video to find players simply not willing to play along. If you find a player never at the plate when the trash can banging is going on you can safely assume he has told his mates that he wants nothing to do with it.

 

Maybe there were no players not willing to play along. But its not something impossible to figure out. If as a player I said to my mates, look I don't want anything to do with this and they continued to signal me as a means of making sure it was sink or swim for everybody, they are gonna' have a hard time with me. If it means we fight it out in the tunnel from clubhouse to dugout well fine. But you are not going to drag me into something I specifically said I did not want to be a part of. Trade me, bench me, fight me in the tunnel but you're not dragging me into a team wide in game real time video and electronics cheating scam I don't want to participate in. The players involved should have to wear that as well as Cora, Beltran and Hinch and the GM and I remain unconvinced that upper management at the least did not wonder what the Christ was going on.

 

I don't want to hear about any Omerta' BS either. Omerta' helps hide the guilty and punishes the innocent. Its BS. Its BS in cycling and BS anywhere else in sports.

Edited January 19, 2020 by jung

[jad]

Most of your post is either pure sophistry or an angry rant, hardly worth a considered response. However. ,being philosophical, you may find the words of St. Thomas Aquinas helpful. To paraphrase him, "Life is Tough".

 

Given your deep reading of medieval philosophers, you want to give me the actual reference for that? Or at least explain to me in all those examples which is cheating and which is not, since you claim the difference is clear cut? You might also detail for me the sports you have been involved in where no 'cheating' (under any definition) took place, bec. I don't know of one.

[Elktonnick]

Given your deep reading of medieval philosophers, you want to give me the actual reference for that? Or at least explain to me in all those examples which is cheating and which is not, since you claim the difference is clear cut? You might also detail for me the sports you have been involved in where no 'cheating' (under any definition) took place, bec. I don't know of one.

 

Like I said sophistry. But here is quick summary not all rule violations are cheating but all cheating violates rules. Ponder that conundrum.

 

As to Aquinas I suggest the Summa Theologica in the original Latin. I could at one time read Latin.(Unfortunately I lost my copy somewhere between our move from Spain to Kuwait. Or was it between Suriname and Spain, we moved so often it is difficult to recall and was 40 years ago. In any case it so hard to keep up one's Latin fluency these days as there are no ancient Romans around. And those that are all speak Italian, Castellano, or one of the other romance languages)

But it was a paraphrase not the actual quote.

Finally because man is a fallable being cheating takes place in all sports which is why there are referees and commissioners empowered to enforce the rules. These commissioners suspend and ban players as the need arises. So obviously these officials spend a lot of effort to distinguish between the cheaters and non cheaters. So clearly they think there is a difference.

 

(BTW I fibbed while I did study and could read Latin at one time, I read the Summa in English. The Dominican who taught Aquinas said we could so it wasn't cheating. It was a philosophy class not a Latin class.)

I know that does not answer all your questions but I had fun writing it.

[notin]

Upper Management, Ownership and the players. Protecting Upper Management creates a firewall between field and general management and Ownership. Guys banging on a trash can in the tunnel and neither Upper Management or Ownership has a question about that???? MY ASS.

 

As for the players, they could not suspend them and they likely could not fine them. But they could sanction them. They should have been called out by name, each and every one of them if each and every team member was involved in some way. Hard to imagine that the core of that batting order if not the entire batting order 1-9 was not involved up to their eyeballs. Who was banging on the trash can in the tunnel? I want names. I could imagine some of the bench players just not playing along. Its not hard to review the video and audio feeds from games and see who was at the plate when signaling (trash can bashing) was going on.

 

Ultimately, they should have been able to review enough audio and video to find players simply not willing to play along. If you find a player never at the plate when the trash can banging is going on you can safely assume he has told his mates that he wants nothing to do with it.

 

Maybe there were no players not willing to play along. But its not something impossible to figure out. If as a player I said to my mates, look I don't want anything to do with this and they continued to signal me as a means of making sure it was sink or swim for everybody, they are gonna' have a hard time with me. If it means we fight it out in the tunnel from clubhouse to dugout well fine. But you are not going to drag me into something I specifically said I did not want to be a part of. Trade me, bench me, fight me in the tunnel but you're not dragging me into a team wide in game real time video and electronics cheating scam I don't want to participate in. The players involved should have to wear that as well as Cora, Beltran and Hinch and the GM and I remain unconvinced that upper management at the least did not wonder what the Christ was going on.

 

I don't want to hear about any Omerta' BS either. Omerta' helps hide the guilty and punishes the innocent. Its BS. Its BS in cycling and BS anywhere else in sports.

 

It’s not hard at all ownership didn’t know. The opposing teams who were looking for other teams cheating didn’t say anything. The advance scouts for other teams didn’t say anything despite hearing that banging every game they went to. Why would ownership know? Do you think they knew about the whole plot as if they were in on it? Not likely. Cora couldn’t even get Hinch on board (reportedly).

 

Naming all the players is just a bad, bad idea. Do you also want them wearing scarlet “C”’s for the rest of their careers? Look at how naming players in PED scandals turned out. Did it get rid of them? Did they accomplish the goal of teaching aspiring high schoolers that they don’t need steroids to make the big league? Or did it turn all of MLB into a massive witch hunt that not only re-enforced needing steroids to make the majors, but also taught them the most severe penalty they will ever face is not getting into Cooperstown. At least on the first try.

 

It also didn’t get them out of the game.

 

And naming players won’t stop electronic sign stealing either. Getting rid of hand signs might..

[Elktonnick]

It’s not hard at all ownership didn’t know. The opposing teams who were looking for other teams cheating didn’t say anything. The advance scouts for other teams didn’t say anything despite hearing that banging every game they went to. Why would ownership know? Do you think they knew about the whole plot as if they were in on it? Not likely. Cora couldn’t even get Hinch on board (reportedly).

 

Naming all the players is just a bad, bad idea. Do you also want them wearing scarlet “C”’s for the rest of their careers? Look at how naming players in PED scandals turned out. Did it get rid of them? Did they accomplish the goal of teaching aspiring high schoolers that they don’t need steroids to make the big league? Or did it turn all of MLB into a massive witch hunt that not only re-enforced needing steroids to make the majors, but also taught them the most severe penalty they will ever face is not getting into Cooperstown. At least on the first try.

 

It also didn’t get them out of the game.

 

And naming players won’t stop electronic sign stealing either. Getting rid of hand signs might..

 

I for.one.hope they do.Not eliminate hand signals. It is part of the game. Just ban all video monitors during the game. Let manager's challenge a play the same way the ump sees it based.on his own eyes. Give him 10 seconds or before the next pitch. Give teams three instead of two challenges.

[harmony]

Given your deep reading of medieval philosophers, you want to give me the actual reference for that? Or at least explain to me in all those examples which is cheating and which is not, since you claim the difference is clear cut? You might also detail for me the sports you have been involved in where no 'cheating' (under any definition) took place, bec. I don't know of one.

Not directly on point:

 

https://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/thomas_aquinas_148678

 

[notin]

I for.one.hope they do.Not eliminate hand signals. It is part of the game. Just ban all video monitors during the game. Let manager's challenge a play the same way the ump sees it based.on his own eyes. Give him 10 seconds or before the next pitch. Give teams three instead of two challenges.

 

They’re outdated. Leaving your glove on the field for the other team was once “part of the game.” Not always a good enough reason, especially when the tradition you’re clinging to has very outdated origins...

[Elktonnick]

They’re outdated. Leaving your glove on the field for the other team was once “part of the game.” Not always a good enough reason, especially when the tradition you’re clinging to has very outdated origins...

 

I like tradition.

[notin]

I like tradition.

 

Pitchers hitting is a bigger tradition than hand signals...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Manfred copped out not punishing players, but we all know why -- the old school saying when managers get canned: "you can't fire the players" (basically, because nobody pays to see skippers skip).

 

Regarding notin's analogy to steroid guys missing Cooperstown "on the first try" -- would it surprise anyone that there just may be some users no one even suspected who are already in?

 

Would it be so surprising, then, that people will someday forgive the fallguys for these evil video days? How's Arod doing lately? Even another two-time suspended PEDer -- Manny Ramirez, who once pushed a 64-year-old team employee to the ground (not even the despicable AC did that) -- is starting to come around again, as are some of his admirers.

[Elktonnick]

Pitchers hitting is a bigger tradition than hand signals...

 

I like pitchers hitting