will Cora get hit with the Hammer??

[notin]

That base has already been covered. Hinch did not have a role in Houston other than acquiescing reluctantly and he still got his head handed to him.

 

No, that doesn’t cover it. Cora should and will get punished regardless of actual involvement, but for now implicating other coaches in a scandal for no reason is just making random accusations...

[jung]

No, that doesn’t cover it. Cora should and will get punished regardless of actual involvement, but for now implicating other coaches in a scandal for no reason is just making random accusations...

 

Nobody has leveled an accusation yet. If you find one in my previous post....you let me know.

 

Players for their part are not going to be dragged into this regardless of how active their role though once you have the guy on second base using material he knows has come from in game real time video as part of a sign stealing system what are we really talking about. You're still splitting hairs in my view in a way that will earn the Sox no credit in this.

Edited January 14, 2020 by jung

[notin]

So now you are going to argue that the cameras used matters? The core offense is using real time in game video to cheat. Your argument simply suggests that Cora became a more knowledgeable cheater between 2017 and 2018. He could possibly do it without a dedicated camera system. Whoopie-ding dong.

 

Of course it matters. Every team has a video room. How many have installed secret cameras in CF for the sole purpose of getting signals and sequences fed directly to the clubhouse?

 

And if Cora went to being a better cheater, why did he switch to a less effective system? Houston could have had a line on every pitch. Boston only did when a runner was on second.

[harmony]

Quote Originally Posted by harmony

What was the bench coach's role (if any) in all of this?

 

We don’t even know if Cora has a role. Until there are details from an actual investigation, there is no point in random accusations...

 

No accusation made, only a question that leaves open the possibility that the bench coach had no role.

[notin]

Nobody has leveled an accusation yet. If you find one in my previous post....you let me know.

 

 

There was a question about Roenicke’s involvement.

 

The Astros engineered a huge plot to steal signs that involved installing a camera and monitoring a live feed. The Red Sox has some players checking existing replays that every team has access to. Maybe the same ethically, but worlds apart in terms of conspiracy...

[jung]

Of course it matters. Every team has a video room. How many have installed secret cameras in CF for the sole purpose of getting signals and sequences fed directly to the clubhouse?

 

And if Cora went to being a better cheater, why did he switch to a less effective system? Houston could have had a line on every pitch. Boston only did when a runner was on second.

 

Possibly because banging on a trash can was simply too painfully overt to last long without exposure. Maybe Cora didn't switch to a less effective system, just a more covert system.

 

Still and all you are spitting hairs. The core offense is using real time in game video to cheat. You are 90% to as bad as it gets at that point. You can parse the last 10% any way you want to.

Edited January 14, 2020 by jung

[notin]

No accusation made, only a question that leaves open the possibility that the bench coach had no role.

 

And until a report is released, we already all know the answer.

 

Roenicke will manage if he is not implicated. Someone else will manage if he is...

[Slasher9]

roenicke was probably the one pushing the button on the remote that vibrated the hitters batting glove everytime an offspeed pitch was coming. the whole coaching staff needs to be cleaned out IMO. they are all complicit. they are all dirty.

[jung]

roenicke was probably the one pushing the button on the remote that vibrated the hitters batting glove everytime an offspeed pitch was coming. the whole coaching staff needs to be cleaned out IMO. they are all complicit. they are all dirty.

 

If Hinch had any chance of being spared in Houston it evaporated as the report stated that his acquiescence said to the players that Management was "tolerant". When it comes to cheating there is little space between tolerant and complicit. That likely is what got Hinch and the GM fired as well. That was ownership saying, NOT US. We were not tolerant nor complicit in any of this.

[S5Dewey]

We don’t even know if Cora has a role. Until there are details from an actual investigation, there is no point in random accusations...

 

We are now seven pages into this discussion and here's what I know for sure: We don't actually know anything and we won't until the investigation is over.

Here's something else I know for sure: If I had a dollar for every time I've seen the words "probably", "possibly", or "maybe" followed by someone's name in this discussion I could retire. Or at least go out and buy myself a bottle of really good scotch.

[Carpin]

We are now seven pages into this discussion and here's what I know for sure: We don't actually know anything and we won't until the investigation is over.

Here's something else I know for sure: If I had a dollar for every time I've seen the words "probably", "possibly", or "maybe" followed by someone's name in this discussion I could retire. Or at least go out and buy myself a bottle of really good scotch.

 

That's probably a good idea lol

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Every team need to have a Mike Fiers/Larry Bigbie type player with actual integrity. We as a culture embrace this “team code” but the reality is, it’s bad for the sport...

 

I wish you had put quotation marks around integrity. How do you think Fiers' ex-teammates or even current teammates feel about him? I'd suspect a lot are more concerned about trust rather than penalties or consequences (ya, I know "stitches for snitches" originated in the streets, not from retaliatory beanballs)...

 

It might suck to be part of the Red Sox right now, but none of us wear the laundry (except the souvenirs). But as a fan, I refuse to put an asterisk on 2018 -- or 04 or 07 or 13 -- when my favorite teams won drinking performance-enhancing protein shakes or shots of Jack Daniels or manipulating the latest technology -- because that was the culture of their milieu at that time in history... just like the Yankee dynasty that won during the steroid era or champs snorting powder in the 70s and 80s or eating greenies in the 60s or using binoculars before Bobby Thomson's HR in 1951.

 

But I agree it's time for this era to stop, mainly because what's really bad for the game are all the sign-delays that make it such a drag to watch.

[notin]

I wish you had put quotation marks around integrity. How do you think Fiers' ex-teammates or even current teammates feel about him? I'd suspect a lot are more concerned about trust rather than penalties or consequences (ya, I know "stitches for snitches" originated in the streets, not from retaliatory beanballs)...

 

[...]

 

But I agree it's time for this era to stop, mainly because what's really bad for the game are all the sign-delays that make it such a drag to watch.

 

What does what Fiers’ teammates think of him have to do with his honesty and moral principles? Integrity isn’t about becoming an accomplice for the good of the team. True integrity can involve the very type of sacrifice you’re alluding to with Fiers. Never mind his past teammates. Will new teams want him on board, knowing he will go public if they cross the lines? To be a whistle blower with borderline talent can end a career. You don’t see teams lining up to sign Larry Bigbie.

 

 

And it’s weird that the only outcome from this that any fans have voiced displeasure in is that it lengthens games. When steroids are involved, people want history rewritten with asterisks next to pennants and home run titles and the existence of some players wiped from the annals of Cooperstown. But with other forms of cheating from Apple watches to spitballs, the level of anger from fans is based solely on how it effects televised games. If teams could figure out a way to cheat during commercials, I doubt any fans would care at all.

 

Many years ago, I heard Jason Stark sum it up simply, but perfectly. “Fans don’t like cheating if it leads to more home runs. But that’s it.”

Edited January 14, 2020 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

And it’s weird that the only outcome from this that any fans have voiced displeasure in is that it lengthens games. When steroids are involved, people want history rewritten with asterisks next to pennants and home run titles and the existence of some players wiped from the annals of Cooperstown. But with other forms of cheating from Apple watches to spitballs, the level of anger from fans is based solely on how it effects televised games. If teams could figure out a way to cheat during commercials, I doubt any fans would care at all.

 

Many years ago, I heard Jason Stark sum it up simply, but perfectly. “Fans don’t like cheating if it leads to more home runs. But that’s it.”

 

Totally disagree.

[notin]

Totally disagree.

 

I would hope some do. but so far at least 3 posters have voiced displeasure with the effect on games by lengthening it. That's appalling, especially if you had any outrage over steroids...

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

What does what Fiers’ teammates think of him have to do with his honesty and moral principles? Integrity isn’t about becoming an accomplice for the good of the team. True integrity can involve the very type of sacrifice you’re alluding to with Fiers. Never mind his past teammates. Will new teams want him on board, knowing he will go public if they cross the lines? To be a whistle blower with borderline talent can end a career. You don’t see teams lining up to sign Larry Bigbie.

 

 

And it’s weird that the only outcome from this that any fans have voiced displeasure in is that it lengthens games. When steroids are involved, people want history rewritten with asterisks next to pennants and home run titles and the existence of some players wiped from the annals of Cooperstown. But with other forms of cheating from Apple watches to spitballs, the level of anger from fans is based solely on how it effects televised games. If teams could figure out a way to cheat during commercials, I doubt any fans would care at all.

 

Many years ago, I heard Jason Stark sum it up simply, but perfectly. “Fans don’t like cheating if it leads to more home runs. But that’s it.”

 

Honesty and moral principles have everything to do with what goes on inside a clubhouse -- in any sport, in the context that it stays inside the clubhouse. These aren't crimes the players committed here, but an accepted part of the game of baseball for over a century. It's just been taken to an advanced level using the latest tech available... which the commish didn't like it, told them to stop, and is now swinging from the heels about.

 

I never played the game for money, but you might believe someone who did -- like Merloni, when he says the effects of sign-stealing are overrated and inconsequential.

 

Try telling that to the same media that is increasingly changing its tune on HOF voting for steroid users.

[notin]

Honesty and moral principles have everything to do with what goes on inside a clubhouse -- in any sport, in the context that it stays inside the clubhouse. These aren't crimes the players committed here, but an accepted part of the game of baseball for over a century. It's just been taken to an advanced level using the latest tech available... which the commish didn't like it, told them to stop, and is now swinging from the heels about.

 

I never played the game for money, but you might believe someone who did -- like Merloni, when he says the effects of sign-stealing are overrated and inconsequential.

 

Try telling that to the same media that is increasingly changing its tune on HOF voting for steroid users.

 

Merloni is obviously a better voice on the impact than any of us, but that doesn't change that teams still do it. And doesn't make it right. I think corked bats are 100% ineffective, but they're still illegal.

 

And you are right about this not being a criminal activity, but integrity and honesty are not limited to criminal matters. You can downplay this aspect of it all you want, but you're now ignoring that another big leaguer went and turned whistle blower because he said it was not how the game was supposed to be played. His exact quote was "That's not playing the right way." Effective or not, he stood on certain principles of sportsmanship.

 

How is silence integrity here? I don't get that. Fiers might not be a good teammate, but that is not the same thing at all.

[5GoldGlovesOF,75]

Merloni is obviously a better voice on the impact than any of us, but that doesn't change that teams still do it. And doesn't make it right. I think corked bats are 100% ineffective, but they're still illegal.

 

And you are right about this not being a criminal activity, but integrity and honesty are not limited to criminal matters. You can downplay this aspect of it all you want, but you're now ignoring that another big leaguer went and turned whistle blower because he said it was not how the game was supposed to be played. His exact quote was "That's not playing the right way." Effective or not, he stood on certain principles of sportsmanship.

 

How is silence integrity here? I don't get that. Fiers might not be a good teammate, but that is not the same thing at all.

 

I'm not ignoring what Fiers said, but if he was so concerned about the issue, why didn't he come out while he was an Astro? Didn't he celebrate their title and wear their ring?

 

Logan Morrison said today he heard Astros banging trash cans as early as 2014, and that lots of teams were using video to crack catcher's codes, including New York, Toronto and Los Angelos... None of this really went public until opposing teams started sending reconnaissance employees to intercept foes spying on each other. Then Cora praised Beltran last summer as a great addition to the Yankees by "paying attention to details".

 

Cora may just turn out to be Manfred's fallguy.

[Elktonnick]

Merloni is obviously a better voice on the impact than any of us, but that doesn't change that teams still do it. And doesn't make it right. I think corked bats are 100% ineffective, but they're still illegal.

 

And you are right about this not being a criminal activity, but integrity and honesty are not limited to criminal matters. You can downplay this aspect of it all you want, but you're now ignoring that another big leaguer went and turned whistle blower because he said it was not how the game was supposed to be played. His exact quote was "That's not playing the right way." Effective or not, he stood on certain principles of sportsmanship.

 

How is silence integrity here? I don't get that. Fiers might not be a good teammate, but that is not the same thing at all.

 

I was appalled listening to Merloni's rant. Cora is a spineless arrogant self righteous hypocrite. Unless he resigns immediately he is without honor. If he waits for the commissioner to formally announce his disciplinary action, he should be banned for life.

[jacksonianmarch]

You cannot use the “everyone was doing it” excuse here. This is an elaborate, sign stealing operation with on field management involvement using technology. This was bad enough that a journeyman starter who’s been on 4 teams expressly complained about only one of them cheating. That excuse doesn’t fly. I bet you every squad has some sort of evaluation of catchers and their sign signals. I’m sure they’ve got a book on each one of them, but my bet is they aren’t all doing it live. Listen, if a scout is on the feed and figures out a catchers sign sequence from the game before and hands it off to the team for the next game, then that’s fair game. Doing it IN GAME using the replay booth is expressly illegal.

[notin]

I'm not ignoring what Fiers said, but if he was so concerned about the issue, why didn't he come out while he was an Astro? Didn't he celebrate their title and wear their ring?

 

Logan Morrison said today he heard Astros banging trash cans as early as 2014, and that lots of teams were using video to crack catcher's codes, including New York, Toronto and Los Angelos... None of this really went public until opposing teams started sending reconnaissance employees to intercept foes spying on each other. Then Cora praised Beltran last summer as a great addition to the Yankees by "paying attention to details".

 

Cora may just turn out to be Manfred's fallguy.

 

He didn't come out and say anything in 2017 because no one would have. Especially someone who knew his contract was expiring. The 2018 Red Sox have the same type of whistle blower who happens to still be anonymous as far as I know.

 

Apparently Fiers did spend 2018 alerting his new teams - Detroit and eventually Oakland - to the practices of the Astros. He didn't go public just yet.

 

Really I don't care about the timing, even if Fiers only ratted out the Astros because they did not offer him a good contract in 2018. In fact, if that is his ultimate motivation, all the more incentive for teams not to cheat - there will be inevitable blackmail in the future.

 

Morrison is probably right that the isue is more widespread than we realize. Certainly the Red Sox and Astros are not the only teams who know how to use a camera...

[Bellhorn04]

Logan Morrison's comments are exactly what I was waiting to hear.

 

Now Manfred has to expand the investigation.

[notin]

Logan Morrison's comments are exactly what I was waiting to hear.

 

Now Manfred has to expand the investigation.

 

No he doesn’t. And I’d be very surprised if it happened...

[notin]

But I am 100% with slasher on this. Hand signals need to go.

 

They were all implemented to accommodate deaf players or old-fashioned scoreboard operators (from umpires). They’re outdated. Want to fight technology? Use technology...

[Bellhorn04]

No he doesn’t. And I’d be very surprised if it happened...

 

You shouldn't be surprised at all.

 

“So many teams are doing this,” Morrison wrote. “Exactly how many...I’m not sure.”

 

“I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs.”

 

Shouldn't Manfred want to talk to Morrison and learn more about these accounts?

 

He wants to catch all the cheaters, doesn't he?

[notin]

You shouldn't be surprised at all.

 

“So many teams are doing this,” Morrison wrote. “Exactly how many...I’m not sure.”

 

“I know from first hand accounts that the Yankees, Dodgers, Astros and Red Sox all have used film to pick signs.”

 

Shouldn't Manfred want to talk to Morrison and learn more about these accounts?

 

He wants to catch all the cheaters, doesn't he?

 

Here’s the thing.

 

Morrison is probably understating the problem. But how is this investigation going to work on just his word? He can talk to LoMo, who can and might name names. Then what?

[jacksonianmarch]

You can use a scout to look at the feed. You just cannot then pass it along to the players IN GAME!

[Bellhorn04]

Here’s the thing.

 

Morrison is probably understating the problem. But how is this investigation going to work on just his word? He can talk to LoMo, who can and might name names. Then what?

 

How did Manfred get his info on the Red Sox? He basically just talked to people, right?

[Bellhorn04]

You can use a scout to look at the feed. You just cannot then pass it along to the players IN GAME!

 

I assume Morrison understands that distinction.

[notin]

How did Manfred get his info on the Red Sox? He basically just talked to people, right?

 

I believe a former player like Fiers talked. But we don’t know who. But to give him some context, let’s assign him a made up name. Like, say, Steven White? Work for you?

 

Ok so how many teams have a Mike Fiers or Steven White to tell all?