will Cora get hit with the Hammer??

[moonslav59]

I think it is a distinction without a difference.

 

Perhaps. I'm thinking the degree of the second offense can add or take away from the punishment.

[notin]

]only if the initial leaked reports are true that the Red Sox only utilized the electronic sign stealing with a runner on 2b. [/b]

what if the batters were wearing vibrating pads under their batting gloves and the clubhouse was sending signals for every pitch via CF camera view of catcher?

WTF has left the door open for every and all cheating speculations to be thrown at the Red Sox and deservedly so.

2018*

Thanks Cora!

 

 

Technically the Red Sox never did electronic sign stealing.

 

They did use replay technology to decipher the opponent’s pitch signals and sequences. But live action signs were stolen and relayed by a runner on second base, which as a stand-alone action is perfectly legal...

[moonslav59]

Technically the Red Sox never did electronic sign stealing.

 

They did use replay technology to decipher the opponent’s pitch signals and sequences. But live action signs were stolen and relayed by a runner on second base, which as a stand-alone action is perfectly legal...

 

The league actually said stealing signs the old fashion way it part of the game and not illegal.

[oldtimer]

Technically the Red Sox never did electronic sign stealing.

 

They did use replay technology to decipher the opponent’s pitch signals and sequences. But live action signs were stolen and relayed by a runner on second base, which as a stand-alone action is perfectly legal...

 

Don't the players commonly look at replay technology to see what they and theiir opponents are doing? I suppose the only difference is immediancy. If you look at yesterdays game playbacks and learn of the signs being used, presumably that is okay and then the man that gets to second can signal to the batter legally. It appears to me the only difference is when the signs are being stolen real time and then somehow being passed to the batter, such as banging on trash cans. Sign stealing in general has been practiced as long as signs have been used. In the game today, all sorts of efforts are being made to switch signs such that sign stealing will be less effective or totally ineffective.

[notin]

The league actually said stealing signs the old fashion way it part of the game and not illegal.

 

 

Yes but it was the coupling of it with the deciphering in the replay room that makes this illegal.

 

What works for the Sox is, this is light years different than the Astros live feed electronic sign stealing. If both teams were robbing liquor stores, the Astros pulled out a gun and went straight for the register while the Red Sox were abusing the “take a penny, leave a penny” dish.

 

What works against the Red Sox is this is not the first offense. I don’t think that having a new manager and GM will factor in here either...

[jung]

Technically the Red Sox never did electronic sign stealing.

 

They did use replay technology to decipher the opponent’s pitch signals and sequences. But live action signs were stolen and relayed by a runner on second base, which as a stand-alone action is perfectly legal...

 

That sounds an awful lot like a distinction without a difference. I would hate to try to make that case in an effort to not get the book thrown at me. The Sox used video and electronics to decipher pitch signals and sequences. i seriously doubt that material could be boiled down effectively for use by a runner on second base who's main responsibility is to get home from scoring position. Hence I have to believe that the Sox used coaches and other players in some system more covert than pounding on a trash can.

 

I can't find a way to believe this ends better for the Sox than it ended for Houston and if anything maybe a tad worse. Once you are top draft picks in two years into penalties, you have already had the book thrown at you. I don't see any possibility of the Sox avoiding that. What Cora gets.......YIKS!!!!!!

[moonslav59]

Don't the players commonly look at replay technology to see what they and theiir opponents are doing? I suppose the only difference is immediancy. If you look at yesterdays game playbacks and learn of the signs being used, presumably that is okay and then the man that gets to second can signal to the batter legally. It appears to me the only difference is when the signs are being stolen real time and then somehow being passed to the batter, such as banging on trash cans. Sign stealing in general has been practiced as long as signs have been used. In the game today, all sorts of efforts are being made to switch signs such that sign stealing will be less effective or totally ineffective.

 

How else does the runner on second know what the signs mean unless there is some study given to the subject before he gets to second?

[moonslav59]

That sounds an awful lot like a distinction without a difference. I would hate to try to make that case in an effort to not get the book thrown at me. The Sox used video and electronics to decipher pitch signals and sequences. i seriously doubt that material could be boiled down effectively for use by a runner on second base who's main responsibility is to get home from scoring position. Hence I have to believe that the Sox used coaches and other players in some system more covert than pounding on a trash can.

 

I can't find a way to believe this ends better for the Sox than it ended for Houston and if anything maybe a tad worse. Once you are top draft picks in two years into penalties, you have already had the book thrown at you. I don't see any possibility of the Sox avoiding that. What Cora gets.......YIKS!!!!!!

 

I'm not saying it might not end up worse for the Sox, but I just don't think we can know, until we know what they actually did.

[jad]

I haven't been following this discussion, but has anyone explained why Cora would have put an inferior system into place, when he had been part of the all-encompassing one at Houston? (Was it bec. he refused to share the details of that system? i.e., would not rat out the Astros? or did he just feel what they were doing was a bit much? Or did he think that ethically (!) the point was to encourage the players themselves to develop a system of their own?) Sorry if this was answered above.

[notin]

That sounds an awful lot like a distinction without a difference. I would hate to try to make that case in an effort to not get the book thrown at me. The Sox used video and electronics to decipher pitch signals and sequences. i seriously doubt that material could be boiled down effectively for use by a runner on second base who's main responsibility is to get home from scoring position. Hence I have to believe that the Sox used coaches and other players in some system more covert than pounding on a trash can.

 

I can't find a way to believe this ends better for the Sox than it ended for Houston and if anything maybe a tad worse. Once you are top draft picks in two years into penalties, you have already had the book thrown at you. I don't see any possibility of the Sox avoiding that. What Cora gets.......YIKS!!!!!!

 

It’s a pretty damn big distinction. The methods the Astros used to steal signs was electronic. The Sox used a runner on second base.

 

The only reason the Sox should be punished as harshly is because this is not their first offense. If, say, the Brewers were doing what Boston did, I would not expect them to be punished the same as Houston...

[notin]

I haven't been following this discussion, but has anyone explained why Cora would have put an inferior system into place, when he had been part of the all-encompassing one at Houston? (Was it bec. he refused to share the details of that system? i.e., would not rat out the Astros? or did he just feel what they were doing was a bit much? Or did he think that ethically (!) the point was to encourage the players themselves to develop a system of their own?) Sorry if this was answered above.

 

I’ve posed that question twice in different contexts.

 

I doubt Cora was involved, since he clearly had better techniques and had not been caught yet. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get punished or fired...

[jad]

I’ve posed that question twice in different contexts.

 

I doubt Cora was involved, since he clearly had better techniques and had not been caught yet. That doesn’t mean he shouldn’t get punished or fired...

 

Thanks. That sounds right. I'm sure he knew what was going on, but must have taken the position 'This is something players and coaches do, not something the manager puts in place.'

[notin]

Don't the players commonly look at replay technology to see what they and theiir opponents are doing? I suppose the only difference is immediancy. If you look at yesterdays game playbacks and learn of the signs being used, presumably that is okay and then the man that gets to second can signal to the batter legally. It appears to me the only difference is when the signs are being stolen real time and then somehow being passed to the batter, such as banging on trash cans. Sign stealing in general has been practiced as long as signs have been used. In the game today, all sorts of efforts are being made to switch signs such that sign stealing will be less effective or totally ineffective.

 

 

It was doing during a game that is the issue. Replay review is fine any other time. In fact, as far as I can tell, replay review before or after a game to determine signs and sequences is perfectly legal...

[jung]

Shaugnessy on SportsHub agrees with me. Get all this electronic and video replay crap out of the hands of the teams.

[notin]

Shaugnessy on SportsHub agrees with me. Get all this electronic and video replay crap out of the hands of the teams.

 

All it takes to stop what the Sox did is put one league employee in the video room...

[Elktonnick]

Yes, I mentioned that in earlier posts. Even a minor second offense could bring stiff punishment to set an example. I get that, but I still think the degree of the second offense (that must be proven) plays into the type of punishment we will receive.

 

Shaugnessy on SportsHub agrees with me. Get all this electronic and video replay crap out of the hands of the teams.

Listening as well! Shaughnessy believes that Boston in effect gave the middle finger to the commissioner by their action in 2018. He believes that their punishment will be at least as bad if not worse because of it.

[Carpin]

All it takes to stop what the Sox did is put one league employee in the video room...

 

Make the the home team pays for the "clubhouse cop", with full access to the team installations and managed directly by the commissioners office and ask them to sign a non disclosure agreement to avoid any leak on legal team practices

[jung]

It was doing during a game that is the issue. Replay review is fine any other time. In fact, as far as I can tell, replay review before or after a game to determine signs and sequences is perfectly legal...

 

In that sense, video review is the same in NFL as MLB. It is perfectly legal to review past game video. The issue is using video in real time during the game in progress. What is valuable from a sign stealing perspective is the past performance of your opponent as to sequencing etc bounced off what your opponent is doing in the game in progress.

 

So for example if you know how often and how they have changed their sign sequencing in the past and you use the real time game in progress video, you can beat the sequencing for that game. This is in part why I think it unlikely that the Sox system was dependent on the runner at 2nd base digesting all of that data and using it effectively. I think we will find that the Sox simply developed a coding system using players and coaches that was just more covert than banging on a trash can.

 

I agree with those that have posed that it makes no sense that Cora would have used a far less effective system in Boston than in Houston. Why? Dirty is dirty. We are kidding ourselves if we think there is some fine hair to be cut in this and i don't think Cora would have thought that either.

[moonslav59]

Listening as well! Shaughnessy believes that Boston in effect gave the middle finger to the commissioner by their action in 2018. He believes that their punishment will be at least as bad if not worse because of it.

 

This is actually encouraging. DS is wrong more than right.

[jung]

This is actually encouraging. DS is wrong more than right.

 

Where DS is controversial and stretching the edge of the envelop he is often wrong and he often does that more than other sports reporters. Dan is not out there stretching the edge of some envelop here.

[notin]

This is actually encouraging. DS is wrong more than right.

 

I think the Sox get hit hard for the repeat offense. Their “cheating” method was laughable compared to what Houston did. But because they’ve been warned before and a fine clearly did NOT get the message across, Manfred has to be harsher. He can’t be so stupid as to just levy a fine again, can he?

 

It’s also looking like Roenicke gets to drive the bus for a while...

[notin]

Make the the home team pays for the "clubhouse cop", with full access to the team installations and managed directly by the commissioners office and ask them to sign a non disclosure agreement to avoid any leak on legal team practices

 

Every team need to have a Mike Fiers/Larry Bigbie type player with actual integrity. We as a culture embrace this “team code” but the reality is, it’s bad for the sport...

[harmony]

I think the Sox get hit hard for the repeat offense. Their “cheating” method was laughable compared to what Houston did. But because they’ve been warned before and a fine clearly did NOT get the message across, Manfred has to be harsher. He can’t be so stupid as to just levy a fine again, can he?

 

It’s also looking like Roenicke gets to drive the bus for a while...

What was the bench coach's role (if any) in all of this?

[jung]

I think the Sox get hit hard for the repeat offense. Their “cheating” method was laughable compared to what Houston did. But because they’ve been warned before and a fine clearly did NOT get the message across, Manfred has to be harsher. He can’t be so stupid as to just levy a fine again, can he?

 

It’s also looking like Roenicke gets to drive the bus for a while...

 

The problem for the Sox if even if Cora was using a less ubiquitous version of his Houston system in Boston, once you are using in game video real time to cheat you are already 90% to as bad as it can get. That IS the core of the offense and it is in part what makes me question whether Cora simply developed a more covert method for communicating data to the field than banging on a trash can. I would find it hard to believe that Cora did not realize that the core offense was using in game video to cheat and you are really splitting hairs about what happens after that.

 

I actually do not think the Sox as a team get hit harder than Houston. To me that would look like splitting hairs the other way. But Cora.....man i think he is just going to be taken off to the woodshed for a long visit.

[notin]

What was the bench coach's role (if any) in all of this?

 

We don’t even know if Cora has a role. Until there are details from an actual investigation, there is no point in random accusations...

[SoxnCycles]

But it's not the usual protocol to give only a warning on first offense, and then go apeshit if there's a second offense.

 

It will be the new protocol if Manfred has decided no one took the first warning seriously.

The penalties for Houston were excessive and I expect Cora's time in baseball is done.

[notin]

The problem for the Sox if even if Cora was using a less ubiquitous version of his Houston system in Boston, once you are using in game video real time to cheat you are already 90% to as bad as it can get. That IS the core of the offense and it is in part what makes me question whether Cora simply developed a more covert method for communicating data to the field than banging on a trash can. I would find it hard to believe that Cora did not realize that the core offense was using in game video to cheat and you are really splitting hairs about what happens after that.

 

I actually do not think the Sox as a team get hit harder than Houston. To me that would look like splitting hairs the other way. But Cora.....man i think he is just going to be taken off to the woodshed for a long visit.

 

That’s a MASSIVE oversimplification to compare the two. The Astros had a a secret camera to give them a live feed of the signals and sequences from every pitch. The Red Sox used a runner on second base (that the opposing team presumably knew was there) to relay info to the hitter, and when no one was on second, they did NOTHING.

 

 

But yeah, the Apple Watch scandal will impact the punishment...

[SoxnCycles]

I kind of now know what it must have felt like to be a MFY fan when the mitchell report dropped.....

f***.

 

Yup, the Sox are screwed.

And over something so dumb.

[jung]

We don’t even know if Cora has a role. Until there are details from an actual investigation, there is no point in random accusations...

 

That base has already been covered. Hinch did not have a role in Houston other than acquiescing reluctantly and he still got his head handed to him.

[jung]

That’s a MASSIVE oversimplification to compare the two. The Astros had a a secret camera to give them a live feed of the signals and sequences from every pitch. The Red Sox used a runner on second base (that the opposing team presumably knew was there) to relay info to the hitter, and when no one was on second, they did NOTHING.

 

 

But yeah, the Apple Watch scandal will impact the punishment...

 

So now you are going to argue that the cameras used matters? The core offense is using real time in game video to cheat. Your argument simply suggests that Cora became a more knowledgeable cheater between 2017 and 2018. He could possibly do it without a dedicated camera system. Whoopdie-ding dong.