Let's see if Porky is really worth the money he's getting paid.

[Larry33]

$20mill isn't an elite pitcher salary, and wasn't even in 2016. That same off-season, Jordan Zimmerman signed for 5 years $110mill, Jeff Samardjzia signed for 5 years $90mill and Wei-Yin Chen signed for 5 years $80mill. You might want to re-adjust your scale for "elite" pitchers. The elite pitchers that offseason were Price and Greinke, both of whom signed for substantially more than a $20mill AAV.

 

Porcello was also 26 at the time, and it was a rare case of paying a pitcher for what he was going to do as opposed to what he had already done...

 

Porcello was nothing more than a 4th ranked starter in Detroit.

 

There's currently 16 pitchers making 20 mil plus in the MLB today. They are Strasburg, Scherzer, Grienke, Price, Kershaw, Verlander, Hernandez, Lester, Zimmerman, Arrieta, Tanaka, Keuchel, Porcello, Cueto, Darvish, and Hamels. Looking at that list we can all agree that Porcello clearly does belong with those names everyone else was establish as elite type pitcher something Porcello never was for his career avg WAR 1.75 not exactly your ACE pitcher type quality.

[Bellhorn04]

Porcello was nothing more than a 4th ranked starter in Detroit.

 

Yeah sure-in 2014, when they also had Verlander, Scherzer and Price.

 

Porcello actually had a better season than Verlander in 2014.

 

C'mon Larry, don't try to pull the wool over our eyes here.

[notin]

Porcello was nothing more than a 4th ranked starter in Detroit.

 

There's currently 16 pitchers making 20 mil plus in the MLB today. They are Strasburg, Scherzer, Grienke, Price, Kershaw, Verlander, Hernandez, Lester, Zimmerman, Arrieta, Tanaka, Keuchel, Porcello, Cueto, Darvish, and Hamels. Looking at that list we can all agree that Porcello clearly does belong with those names everyone else was establish as elite type pitcher something Porcello never was for his career avg WAR 1.75 not exactly your ACE pitcher type quality.

 

If you use Fangraphs fWAR, you would know that Porcello has averaged more fWAR per season than Keuchel, Arrieta, and Zimmermann, and is barely behind Cueto.

 

You're actually convincing me it was a good contract...

[notin]

Yeah sure-in 2014, when they also had Verlander, Scherzer and Price.

 

Porcello actually had a better season than Verlander in 2014.

 

C'mon Larry, don't try to pull the wool over our eyes here.

 

By that argument, ERod is nothing but a fourth starter in Boston...

[Bellhorn04]

When the Red Sox gave Porcello that extension, there's little doubt that they overpaid a bit on the salary, but in return they got a relatively short 4 years. It's not all about the salary.

 

The way I look at it, it was a 5 year contract for 95 million. He was already set to make 12.5 million for 2015. And the extension was announced before he had thrown a pitch for us in a real game.

[moonslav59]

When the Red Sox gave Porcello that extension, there's little doubt that they overpaid a bit on the salary, but in return they got a relatively short 4 years. It's not all about the salary.

 

The way I look at it, it was a 5 year contract for 95 million. He was already set to make 12.5 million for 2015. And the extension was announced before he had thrown a pitch for us in a real game.

 

The best part was that all the years of the contract were within prime.

 

It's not very often you get 4 years of a team control contract all in prime.

[Larry33]

Yeah sure-in 2014, when they also had Verlander, Scherzer and Price.

 

Porcello actually had a better season than Verlander in 2014.

 

C'mon Larry, don't try to pull the wool over our eyes here.

 

Then why didn't you explain how come Verlander wasn't himself in 2014 and had an off year it was because he had to have muscle core repair surgery after the 2013 season . Everyone knows was Verlander wasn't himself 2014.

[Larry33]

If you use Fangraphs fWAR, you would know that Porcello has averaged more fWAR per season than Keuchel, Arrieta, and Zimmermann, and is barely behind Cueto.

 

You're actually convincing me it was a good contract...

 

Baseball Reference contradict your analysis everyone you mentioned has higher career WAR numbers than Porcello. Cueto is way ahead of Porcello in WAR 32.3 vs 19.3 good thing you're not in a race you'd be so far behind you'd think you were first.

[Bellhorn04]

Then why didn't you explain how come Verlander wasn't himself in 2014 and had an off year it was because he had to have muscle core repair surgery after the 2013 season . Everyone knows was Verlander wasn't himself 2014.

 

The point is that Porcello is not a #4 pitcher just because he was on the same staff with 3 studs one year.

[Bellhorn04]

Baseball Reference contradict your analysis everyone you mentioned has higher career WAR numbers than Porcello. Cueto is way ahead of Porcello in WAR 32.3 vs 19.3 good thing you're not in a race you'd be so far behind you'd think you were first.

 

fWAR treats Porcello much better than bWAR, you're right about that.

 

If we want to debate fWAR vs. bWAR for pitchers, that's a whole other thread, and it would just turn into an Old School-New School fiasco.

[notin]

When the Red Sox gave Porcello that extension, there's little doubt that they overpaid a bit on the salary, but in return they got a relatively short 4 years. It's not all about the salary.

 

The way I look at it, it was a 5 year contract for 95 million. He was already set to make 12.5 million for 2015. And the extension was announced before he had thrown a pitch for us in a real game.

 

Which would make it virtually identical to the contract Jeff Samardzija got that same off-season. In that respect, it looks like a good deal...

[jung]

Nothing wrong with what the Sox have done with Rick to this point. I honestly have no idea what we would have to complain about. Resigning him almost at any number he would accept would be a huge mistake, for the Sox, for Rick for everybody.

 

That said, I don't think Sox Management is stupid enough to try to resign him here.

[notin]

Baseball Reference contradict your analysis everyone you mentioned has higher career WAR numbers than Porcello. Cueto is way ahead of Porcello in WAR 32.3 vs 19.3 good thing you're not in a race you'd be so far behind you'd think you were first.

 

Baseball Reference doesn't contract my analysis. They contradict Fangraphs' analysis. And saying one is definitively right over the other is usually only done with a sense of bias. What should be learned from it is that there are multiple ways of evaluating a pitcher, and Cueto doesn't clearly fare batter than Porcello using all of them, which means it's probably closer than you think.

 

To me, the biggest drawback to Cueto has been the injuries. He might have been more talented, but that talent did little use to anyone when it was stashed on the DL...

[FredLynn]

Exactly my point I was trying to prove that Porcello is nothing more than an average pitcher and there's noway he 's worth the 82.5 mil dollars he's getting paid.

 

He's getting an elite players salary for being an average mediocre pitcher.

 

Point made. Good thing we will not have Porcello to kick around next year. Or Bradley. Or Leon.

[S5Dewey]

Exactly my point I was trying to prove that Porcello is nothing more than an average pitcher and there's noway he 's worth the 82.5 mil dollars he's getting paid.

 

He's getting an elite players salary for being an average mediocre pitcher.

 

IMO you need to edit that to say that "he's getting an elite player's salary for being an average pitcher in 2019".

 

Unless, of course, you want to step into a time machine and undo his entire contract. That would negate 2016 when he went 22-4 for $20.125M and won the CYA and his 17-7 2018 ($21.125M) when the Sox won the WSC.

 

I'm disappointed in his performance this year (in spite of the fact that I believe the new ball has a lot to do with it) but I would NEVER say that he wasn't worth the $82.5M he got paid.

[notin]

IMO you need to edit that to say that "he's getting an elite player's salary for being an average pitcher in 2019".

 

Unless, of course, you want to step into a time machine and undo his entire contract. That would negate 2016 when he went 22-4 for $20.125M and won the CYA and his 17-7 2018 ($21.125M) when the Sox won the WSC.

 

I'm disappointed in his performance this year (in spite of the fact that I believe the new ball has a lot to do with it) but I would NEVER say that he wasn't worth the $82.5M he got paid.

 

Perfectly stated...

[moonslav59]

One could argue $22M is not really "elite," but I guess that depends on what you think "elite" means.

[S5Dewey]

Perfectly stated...

 

What?? Something we unequivocally agree on? LOL

[Slasher9]

Baseball Reference contradict your analysis everyone you mentioned has higher career WAR numbers than Porcello. Cueto is way ahead of Porcello in WAR 32.3 vs 19.3 good thing you're not in a race you'd be so far behind you'd think you were first.

 

wait...i thought no one uses WAR as an argument ender on TalkSox???!!!

color me confused.....

[Slasher9]

wait...i thought no one uses WAR as an argument ender on TalkSox???!!!

color me confused.....

 

also, IP? games played? because no one ever just throws out WAR numbers without including games played/AB's/IP.....so i'm told?

[Slasher9]

#warcansuckayankeeslimpdick

[notin]

also, IP? games played? because no one ever just throws out WAR numbers without including games played/AB's/IP.....so i'm told?

 

You do realize WAR numbers include factors like IP, games played, etc as it trends to being cumulative...

[notin]

One could argue $22M is not really "elite," but I guess that depends on what you think "elite" means.

 

I made that point as well. That same offseason, Price and Greinke showed what the "elite" price range was...

[Slasher9]

You do realize WAR numbers include factors like IP, games played, etc as it trends to being cumulative...

 

Exactaf***inglutely. That’s the point. When comparing 2 or more players. But nobody does it (except you harmony)

[Larry33]

Well Porcello pitched another gem last night with 13.50 ERA 4 IP 7 H 6 R 6 ER 2 HR 1 SO .368 avg 1.75 WHIP. Most think he's worth his money simply because he's an inning eater well no matter the No of inning pitched if most of them are bad innings. I guess there's a good reason DD ignored his plea to give him an extension at reduced price to stay in Boston along with his outspokenness to even negotiate during the season.

[Bellhorn04]

Well Porcello pitched another gem last night with 13.50 ERA 4 IP 7 H 6 R 6 ER 2 HR 1 SO .368 avg 1.75 WHIP. Most think he's worth his money simply because he's an inning eater well no matter the No of inning pitched if most of them are bad innings.

 

Correction: most think he was worth his money for 2015-2018. Obviously not this year.

[Larry33]

Correction: most think he was worth his money for 2015-2018. Obviously not this year.

 

Come give your head a shake anybody in their right mind wouldn't consider his 2015 season with a 9-15 record with .375 W-L% and 4.92 ERA worth 20 plus mil nor his 2017 season with 11-17 record with .393 W-L% and 4.65 ERA .In 2018 was least innings he pitched in any season since his debut in 2009 with 4.28 ERA now who knows how he'll end the season his outlook so far seem pretty dismal. The 2016 season is the only time he earned his due of 20 mil plus and the rest of his contract he was being overpaid for being a mediocre pitcher on great team.

[notin]

Come give your head a shake anybody in their right mind wouldn't consider his 2015 season with a 9-15 record with .375 W-L% and 4.92 ERA worth 20 plus mil nor his 2017 season with 11-17 record with .393 W-L% and 4.65 ERA .In 2018 was least innings he pitched in any season since his debut in 2009 with 4.28 ERA now who knows how he'll end the season his outlook so far seem pretty dismal. The 2016 season is the only time he earned his due of 20 mil plus and the rest of his contract he was being overpaid for being a mediocre pitcher on great team.

 

He also wasn't making $20mill in 2015. His contract ran from 2016-2019...

[Bellhorn04]

Come give your head a shake anybody in their right mind wouldn't consider his 2015 season with a 9-15 record with .375 W-L% and 4.92 ERA worth 20 plus mil nor his 2017 season with 11-17 record with .393 W-L% and 4.65 ERA .In 2018 was least innings he pitched in any season since his debut in 2009 with 4.28 ERA now who knows how he'll end the season his outlook so far seem pretty dismal. The 2016 season is the only time he earned his due of 20 mil plus and the rest of his contract he was being overpaid for being a mediocre pitcher on great team.

 

In 2018 he had a bWAR of 3.1. Nice try with the innings thing though.

[Larry33]

In 2018 he had a bWAR of 3.1. Nice try with the innings thing though.

 

He was also one of the pitchers that got the most run support that season. If he had half the run support he got he wouldn't had the numbers so being on the most offensive team in the MLB helped him. His ERA will tell you exactly how good he really was anybody with an above 4.00 ERA isn't an elite pitcher in this league.