A Realistic View at 2019: Part II

[Bellhorn04]

The funny thing about 2013 was that Iggy out OPS'd Stephen Drew .785 to.777.

 

Fact check please!

 

The .785 OPS you're citing for Iggy was only for the 63 games with Boston, and was the result of a crazy high BABip to start out with. His OPS was .985 at the end of June before plummeting to .785 due to a .464 OPS in July.

 

With Detroit in 2013 he had a .654 OPS in 46 games.

 

His final OPS for 2013 was .735.

[Slasher9]

2013 ALCS.

not to take shots at Iggy but he did have a huge Error in 9th inning of game 2 + a play he should have made in the 8th inning (ruled a hit) that allowed us to escape a 97% probability of a Loss in that game. the difference between tying the series up 1-1 vs going down 2-0 was HUGE.

[moonslav59]

Fact check please!

 

The .785 OPS you're citing for Iggy was only for the 63 games with Boston, and was the result of a crazy high BABip to start out with. His OPS was .985 at the end of June before plummeting to .785 due to a .464 OPS in July.

 

With Detroit in 2013 he had a .654 OPS in 46 games.

 

His final OPS for 2013 was .735.

 

I honestly thought I wrote "with Boston," but I did not.

 

To me, Iggy was better from 2013-2015- the same time period Drew was with us ('13-'14), and the time Iggy was still under team control from his original contract (to '15, I believe).

 

Yes, Iggy got hurt with the Tiger in 2014, but even the offensive numbers from 2013-2015 were better than Drew's, and that was the one thing Drew supposedly had on Iggy- Offense.

 

OPS 2013-2015:

 

.725 Iggy (.348 OBP and 16 SBs)

 

.674 Drew (.288 OBP and 7 SBs)

 

To be fair, Drew had a better UZR/150 than Iggy during this period (10.2 to 7.1). It's like our impressions of these two were upside down.

 

 

 

 

[Bellhorn04]

2013 ALCS.

not to take shots at Iggy but he did have a huge Error in 9th inning of game 2 + a play he should have made in the 8th inning (ruled a hit) that allowed us to escape a 97% probability of a Loss in that game. the difference between tying the series up 1-1 vs going down 2-0 was HUGE.

 

His error in the 7th inning of Game 6 was even huger.

[moonslav59]

Glad Iggy is gone. He is a lousy teammate for one thing and he always will be.

 

One simple question. Would Rafi have made so much progress with Iggy at SS as opposed to X? Answer: NOPE...not on a bet.

 

Drew made every single play in that series and you simply cannot downplay a shortstop in a short series making every single play compared to a hothead booting them and screaming at his teammates the whole time. So if you are arguing would I want Iggy now...NOPE....not on a bet. Would not have taken Iggy over Drew in that series and would not take Iggy now over X.

 

We got Peavy and WS and the Tigers got....embarrassed AGAIN!!!

 

Lousy teammate? Where do you get this crap?

 

Again, nobody ever wanted to get rid of Bogey for X, so stop the Iggy vs Bogey strawman stuff. We wanted Iggy & Bogey.

 

It was Iggy vs Middy, Iggy vs Drew and Iggy vs any other 3Bman in our system until 2015.

[moonslav59]

His error in the 7th inning of Game 6 was even huger.

 

Yes, so Drew is better over two plays in his career?

 

And for a guy apparently known for making errors on easy plays, he has 43 career errors. That's only 13 more than Renteria had in one year with the Sox.

[S5Dewey]

nope!

 

Then neither does all your garbage about his being a poor teammate.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, so Drew is better over two plays in his career?

 

And for a guy apparently known for making errors on easy plays, he has 43 career errors. That's only 13 more than Renteria had in one year with the Sox.

 

moon, we traded Iggy in 2013 and he ended up with Detroit. We played Detroit in the ALCS and he made 2 big errors that helped us win the series.

 

Do you really expect us not to make a big deal out of that?

[Slasher9]

Yes, so Drew is better over two plays in his career?

 

And for a guy apparently known for making errors on easy plays, he has 43 career errors. That's only 13 more than Renteria had in one year with the Sox.

 

no of course not. but you have to see the irony in it. i am sure you watched that series and those games. if he just makes those routine plays and 1 other grounder ruled a hit by sox scorer that he probably makes the play on 8 times out of 10 we probably dont have a parade in 2013. sorry, i'm not trying to hate on Iggy and i would have been more then happy to keep him over stephen drew and move X to 3b, but the trade definitely worked out for us that season and for that particular ALCS.

[moonslav59]

no of course not. but you have to see the irony in it. i am sure you watched that series and those games. if he just makes those routine plays and 1 other grounder ruled a hit by sox scorer that he probably makes the play on 8 times out of 10 we probably dont have a parade in 2013. sorry, i'm not trying to hate on Iggy and i would have been more then happy to keep him over stephen drew and move X to 3b, but the trade definitely worked out for us that season and for that particular ALCS.

 

I've watched every play of every Sox game for over a decade.

 

Those were horrible and extremely costly errors.

 

I never judge players on 2 plays. Nobody should.

 

I hated the trade at the time, but I said it made sense. We needed a SP'er. The trade worked.

 

We are talking about two different things. Iggy was not traded for Drew. I'd rather have had Iggy from 2013-2015 than Drew. That was my point.

[moonslav59]

moon, we traded Iggy in 2013 and he ended up with Detroit. We played Detroit in the ALCS and he made 2 big errors that helped us win the series.

 

Do you really expect us not to make a big deal out of that?

 

No. It was a big deal.

 

I just think 2 bad plays does not tip the balance.

 

We'll never know if Iggy makes 2 big errors for us, had we kept him. Would he have still gotten hurt in 2014?

 

It's my opinion, and I respect yours.

 

Drew and Peavy helped us in 2013, and we won a ring. The trade worked.

 

That doesn't mean I have to agree Drew was better than Iggy in this time frame.

[Elktonnick]

Then neither does all your garbage about his being a poor teammate.

 

I think this article explains why many think Iglesias is a lousy team mate.

 

Shortstop Jose Iglesias played for the Detroit Tigers in 2013, and 2015-2018. He was an All-Star in 2015 when he batted .300 in 120 games.

Jose Iglesias played four full seasons for the Detroit Tigers, but it seems like he was here for a decade.

This offseason the enigmatic shortstop will change uniforms, exercising his free agent rights. There’s little chance the Tigers will make an offer to retain him.

It’s hard to find fans in Detroit who will miss Iglesias. His tenure in Detroit was strange, uneven, and controversial. But mostly it was disappointing.

Iglesias came to the team in a three-team trade in the middle of the 2013 season that cost Detroit young outfielder Avisail Garcia and reliever Brayan Villarreal. At the time, the 23-year old Cuban was filling in at short for the injured Stephen Drew for the Red Sox. He surprised the Boston brass by getting hot at the plate, he was hitting over .400 on July 4th. Iglesias was considered a one-trick pony: a flashy defensive whiz who couldn’t hit much. There were questions of whether he would ever hit well enough to be in a lineup regularly. Some in the Boston front office thought Iglesias was destined for a utility player role. But the hits kept coming in the summer of 2013 and when Drew came back from his injury, the Sox had a decision to make. General Manager Ben Cherington didn’t hesitate: he dealt Iglesias at the July 31 trade deadline, acknowledging that Iglesias’ recent hitting spree inflated the young player’s value as high as it might ever be.

Detroit GM Dave Dombrowski needed Iglesias, but he couldn’t tell anyone exactly why. Since spring training, Major League Baseball had been investigating a drug scandal at Biogenesis, a lab that had supplied performance-enhancing drugs to players for several years. Detroit shortstop Jhonny Peralta’s name had been linked to Biogenesis since February. Initially Peralta strongly denied having used PEDs. Then, in June his denial was less adamant, then he went silent. Dombrowski knew that MLB would hand down suspensions in early August. With Peralta’s head in the noose, he knew almost certainly that his star shortstop would be suspended.

Sure enough, on August 5, Peralta’s name was included among the 13 who were suspended for PED usage via the Biogenesis lab. Peralta’s penalty was 50 games, meaning he would essentially miss the rest of the regular season. Dombrowski saw Iglesias as insurance.

The Tigers won their third consecutive division title in 2013, and after July it was never in doubt. In his first week with the team, Iglesias never saw them lose, as the Tigers finished off a 12-game win streak. Iglesias teamed with second baseman Omar Infante for the balance of the season. After the trade, Iglesias batted .259 in 46 games with a pair of home runs. It was in the field where he turned heads, making flashy plays, including several off-balance throws. The Cuban shortstop made just two errors in 45 games at shortstop for Detroit.

Peralta returned for the final weekend of the regular season and the playoffs in 2013, but he left Motown as a free agent that winter. Which left the shortstop job to Iglesias. But “Iggy” wan’t able to do that job in 2014 because he suffered shin splints in both legs. Most likely the cause of the injuries was twofold: a sudden increase in training and a genetic condition that affects Iglesias’ feet. He wears inserts in his shoes to alleviate the shape and bone weaknesses in his feet, but at some point Iglesias overtrained or trained too much too quickly and caused inflammation and damage to his legs. The injuries proved serious and Iglesias missed the entire season.

Maybe it was his lost ’14 season that caused Detroit fans to have uncomfortable feelings about Iglesias. Just as they were getting to know him, he disappeared. To further complicate the relationship between the starting shortstop and the fans, it was just beginning of his injury saga.

Barely three weeks into the 2015 season, Iglesias made an awkward attempt to make a game-ending double play in Tampa against the Rays. He crossed in front of second base with the ball, tripped on the bag, and while falling forward he fired to first off-balance. The throw went wide and the Rays scored the winning run. As his teammates walked off the field, Iglesias lay on the ground hurt. When he tripped over the bag, Iglesias had fallen into the sliding Tampa runner, taking a knee to his head. He tore up his knee and more seriously, probably suffered a concussion. He missed three weeks that season to that injury and others. More injuries, and controversy followed later in the season.

On August 7, 2015, in a game against his former team at Comerica Park, Iglesias and teammate James McCann fought in the dugout, a fracas that was caught on camera. During the contest a grounder was hit up the middle on the shortstop side of second. Iglesias ran after the ball but didn’t seem to run that hard. The ball ended up passing him into center field, a few feet from his left. It seemed to McCann from his position at catcher that Iglesias could have dove for the ball. After the inning, McCann barked at Iglesias over the play, the shortstop shoved McCann, and the teammates had to be separated. After the confrontation, Anthony Gose got in Iggy’s face.

Iglesias made the All-Star team in 2015 on the strength of a hot first half at the plate. He would make great plays in the field that people said they’d never seen before, but then in the next game he would lazily run after a line drive. In many cases others around the league loved him more than we did, because they only saw him in three-game chunks. The warts were hidden. Iglesias cooled in the second half of the 2015 season, he continued to struggle to hit the slider or a curveball. Throughout his career he’s essentially been a predictable first-ball fastball hitter. No grinding out at-bats, no discernment or careful approach to hitting.

Throughout his career, Iglesias has been a contradiction. On the one hand he can look fantastic in the field, ranging far and wide to gather groundballs and executing off-balance throws. His hands are fast and his movements are fluid, he’s excellent at going back and catching pop flies in the short regions of the outfield. But on the other hand, the man they call “Little Flame” can be nonchalant, casual in his approach to fielding routine balls. He doesn’t like to dive and he can look bored and disinterested. His body language can be bad, and that pissed off some of his teammates.

While he was a Tiger, Iglesias burned through mentors. Infante tried to council the young infielder early on, then it was Victor Martinez, a respected team leader who often takes it on himself to work with young Latin players. Finally, Miguel Cabrera took Iggy under his wing after the 2017 season. That year, Iglesias went on the disabled list for the fourth straight season as a Tiger. Cabrera was determined to work hard in the offseason to strengthen and reshape his body, having suffered nagging injuries as he headed into his mid 30s. In the winter, Cabrera shepherded Iglesias to join him in working with the personal trainer that has previously helped Lebron James and many NFL players stay fit. But while Cabrera showed up for the intense workouts, Iglesias was a no-show more than once.

That’s the thing about Iglesias and his tenure with Detroit: he’s gifted but he doesn’t respect his gift. He lives on raw talent alone. He hasn’t improved in any area of his game: Iglesias still swings at bad pitches (he walked 40 times combined in 2017-18); he has reported to camp overweight; he’s failed to add power to his game. Under new manager Ron Gardenhire he did agree to steal more bases, but he also makes as many boneheaded base running plays as anyone on the team.

What will the legacy be of Iglesias in Detroit? Sadly, there won’t be much of one. Maybe we shouldn’t blame him. He came here as insurance, he was always a set piece, a side dish to the Kinsler’s and Cabrera’s and Hunter’s who were around here. But he also had a light that he never seemed to switch on, a level he never bothered to go to, a gear he never used. For that reason, we never really knew how good Iglesias could be.

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Tags: Detroit Tigers, Jose Iglesias

 

About Dan Holmes

The editor of Detroit Athletic Co. blog, Dan Holmes is the author of Ty Cobb: A Biography. He previously worked for the National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum in Cooperstown, NY, and worked for Major League Baseball as a web producer. He contributed to Sock it to 'Em Tigers: The Incredible Story of the 1968 Detroit Tigers, and Deadball Stars of the American League. Follow him on Twitter at @thedanholmes or visit his personal blog at danholmes.com.

[moonslav59]

nope!

 

How about second fewest errors made by a SS since 2011 (6,000+ innings)?

 

Only Peralta made less.

 

How about 3rd best Flg%?

 

How about 2nd best UZR/150?

[notin]

Lousy teammate? Where do you get this crap?

 

Again, nobody ever wanted to get rid of Bogey for X, so stop the Iggy vs Bogey strawman stuff. We wanted Iggy & Bogey.

 

It was Iggy vs Middy, Iggy vs Drew and Iggy vs any other 3Bman in our system until 2015.

 

I was as down on Miuddlebrooks a any Sox fan, even when he was still a minor leaguer. I wanted Middlebrooks to be dealt there (which would have made sense because the White Sox had never replaced Joe Crede at 3b and could have just kept Detroit out of that deal altogether.)

 

But Iglesias did have issues. He reportedly had a mild tantrum upon a demotion to Pawtucket once, which Castiglione discussed on the radio as a Cuban thing as Cubans viewed demotions as statements they were not good enough (his words, not mine). And Iglesias also started a dugout fight with Detroit catcher James McCann during a game against the Red Sox.

 

He certainly wasn't perfect. I never cared, since I never planned on hanging out with him anyway...

[Bellhorn04]

No. It was a big deal.

 

I just think 2 bad plays does not tip the balance.

 

We'll never know if Iggy makes 2 big errors for us, had we kept him. Would he have still gotten hurt in 2014?

 

IIRC Iggy's 2014 injury wasn't something that happened in a game. He had some sort of general condition with his shins.

[notin]

How about second fewest errors made by a SS since 2011 (6,000+ innings)?

 

Only Peralta made less.

 

How about 3rd best Flg%?

 

How about 2nd best UZR/150?

 

At the time Iglesias was dealt, the two of the top 3 active career leaders in UZR/150 for shortstops were Adam Everett and Nick Punto, both of whom had been dealt by the Red Sox in previous deals. No one cried nearly as much when those two excellent defenders were traded away. Punto was reaching the end of his career, so he wasn't the player he was in Minnesota. But Everett went on to have a great career as a defensive infielder, and was dealt for Human Volcano Carl Everett (no relation) in a move that some have said was to undermine Sox manager Jimy Williams, who envisioned a future Sox infield with Everett and David Eckstein up the middle. (Eckstein was DFA'd and released to accommodate the worthless Ed Sprague.)

[moonslav59]

At the time Iglesias was dealt, the two of the top 3 active career leaders in UZR/150 for shortstops were Adam Everett and Nick Punto, both of whom had been dealt by the Red Sox in previous deals. No one cried nearly as much when those two excellent defenders were traded away. Punto was reaching the end of his career, so he wasn't the player he was in Minnesota. But Everett went on to have a great career as a defensive infielder, and was dealt for Human Volcano Carl Everett (no relation) in a move that some have said was to undermine Sox manager Jimy Williams, who envisioned a future Sox infield with Everett and David Eckstein up the middle. (Eckstein was DFA'd and released to accommodate the worthless Ed Sprague.)

 

I cried buckets when Alex Gonzalez was traded. Does that count?

 

(He actually started hitting HRs after he left us.)

[notin]

I cried buckets when Alex Gonzalez was traded. Does that count?

 

(He actually started hitting HRs after he left us.)

 

AGon was probably my favorite of the Sox shortstops during that SS-Rotation phase...

[moonslav59]

AGon was probably my favorite of the Sox shortstops during that SS-Rotation phase...

 

I started rooting for the Sox in the early 70's, my favorite SSs have been:

 

1. Rick Burleson (most innings at SS by any Sox since 1970)

2. Luis Aparicio (one of the first players that showed me the value of defense)

3. Alex Gonzalez (for some reason his defensive metrics did not meet my eye test)

4. Xander Bogaerts (his offense way more than makes up for his D)

5. John Valentin (not great on D but an unsung player)

6. Alex Cora, Pokey Reese, OCab, Iggy, Rey Quinones, Mario Guerrero (many were no stick)

7. Tim Naehring

8. Nomar (Man, the guy could hit!)

 

Neutral:

Hoffman (5th in innings) & Luis Rivera (6th in innings) just never got my heart

Spike Owen & Gutierrez (Jody Reed)

Lowrie, Scutaro & Aviles

Drew

 

Worst:

1. Lugo

2. Renteria

 

[Carpin]

I started rooting for the Sox in the early 70's, my favorite SSs have been:

 

1. Rick Burleson (most innings at SS by any Sox since 1970)

2. Luis Aparicio (one of the first players that showed me the value of defense)

3. Alex Gonzalez (for some reason his defensive metrics did not meet my eye test)

4. Xander Bogaerts (his offense way more than makes up for his D)

5. John Valentin (not great on D but an unsung player)

6. Alex Cora, Pokey Reese, OCab, Iggy, Rey Quinones, Mario Guerrero (many were no stick)

7. Tim Naehring

8. Nomar (Man, the guy could hit!)

 

Neutral:

Hoffman (5th in innings) & Luis Rivera (6th in innings) just never got my heart

Spike Owen & Gutierrez (Jody Reed)

Lowrie, Scutaro & Aviles

Drew

 

Worst:

1. Lugo

2. Renteria

 

 

I know this is more about feelings, than actual results/stats, but IMO you have Nomar way too low

[notin]

I started rooting for the Sox in the early 70's, my favorite SSs have been:

 

1. Rick Burleson (most innings at SS by any Sox since 1970)

2. Luis Aparicio (one of the first players that showed me the value of defense)

3. Alex Gonzalez (for some reason his defensive metrics did not meet my eye test)

4. Xander Bogaerts (his offense way more than makes up for his D)

5. John Valentin (not great on D but an unsung player)

6. Alex Cora, Pokey Reese, OCab, Iggy, Rey Quinones, Mario Guerrero (many were no stick)

7. Tim Naehring

8. Nomar (Man, the guy could hit!)

 

Neutral:

Hoffman (5th in innings) & Luis Rivera (6th in innings) just never got my heart

Spike Owen & Gutierrez (Jody Reed)

Lowrie, Scutaro & Aviles

Drew

 

Worst:

1. Lugo

2. Renteria

 

 

Rey Quinones over Nomar and Naehring? Really? Did one of his 190 at bats with Boston really impress you? His run at SS in Boston was barely longer than Arquimedez Pozo...

[moonslav59]

I know this is more about feelings, than actual results/stats, but IMO you have Nomar way too low

 

It's about my favorites.

 

I'm high on D, especially at SS, CF and catcher.

 

Nomar was all flash on D with very little substance. He made easy plays look hard.

 

Loved his bat.

 

When he was traded, no lie, I said to my brothers-in-laws, "We just traded Nomar for Orlando Cabrera! This trade will win us a ring!"

 

Certainly, OCab alone did not win us the ring, but his solid defense was a big plus, and he hit pretty well, too.

 

Too bad he couldn't leave the other wives alone.

[moonslav59]

Rey Quinones over Nomar and Naehring? Really? Did one of his 190 at bats with Boston really impress you? His run at SS in Boston was barely longer than Arquimedez Pozo...

 

Naehring always seemed to be hurt and lacked range. (I did have him above Nomar!)

 

My favorite Sox player, now is JBJ, so it's not about being the best player, to me.

 

When JBJ goes, Rafael is my man!

[notin]

Naehring always seemed to be hurt and lacked range. (I did have him above Nomar!)

 

My favorite Sox player, now is JBJ, so it's not about being the best player, to me.

 

When JBJ goes, Rafael is my man!

 

I think my comment was more about Quinones. who played part of one season (in 1986) in Boston. Spike Owen logged more innings at shortstop for the Sox and he didn't even make your list . And it was Owen who had the stellar 1986 post-season...

[moonslav59]

I think my comment was more about Quinones. who played part of one season (in 1986) in Boston. Spike Owen logged more innings at shortstop for the Sox and he didn't even make your list . And it was Owen who had the stellar 1986 post-season...

 

Spike is on my list under "neutral". He was a good fielder. I'm not sure why I never liked him all that much.

 

I just remember liking Quinones in the field. That little bit of like was more than my like of Nomar.

 

(Nomar's routine before each pitch bugged me, too.)

[S5Dewey]

 

(Nomar's routine before each pitch bugged me, too.

 

I can remember some wag saying that one of the most effective ways to speed up the game of baseball would be to outlaw velcro.

[notin]

(Nomar's routine before each pitch bugged me, too.)

 

Nomar had nothing on Mike Hargrove. Remember him? His nickname was "The Human Rain Delay".

 

After every pitch, he stepped out of the box, adjusted his helmet and his gloves, and took 3 practice swings. And then, sometimes, readjusted his helmet and gloves. Sometimes he would step in the box and step back out and do it all over again. And that sequence all happened without fail after EVERY PITCH!

 

And to make matters worse, he was a very selective hitter and took a lot of pitches. And to really compound the issue, as he was not only a pretty good hitter, but he was especially good at drawing walks, he frequently hit leadoff. He could come up 5 times a game!! And did so alot!!

 

When Hargrove came up, you had time to go to the fridge and get a snack. And if there was nothing good to snack on, you actually had time to go to the store and buy something good. And you had to, because many people starved to death waiting for his at bat to come to an end.

 

In retrospect, Nomar wasn't so bad...

Edited August 22, 2019 by notin

[Bellhorn04]

Hargrove was the champ. Every one of his AB's was torture.

[Michigan adam]

Naehring always seemed to be hurt and lacked range. (I did have him above Nomar!)

 

My favorite Sox player, now is JBJ, so it's not about being the best player, to me.

 

When JBJ goes, Rafael is my man!

 

I always thought Nomar was better than Jeter on both sides of the ball. Other than durability, I always thought Jeter was WAY over rated. AROD was better than both at the time, but I always thought Jeter was worst of the three.

[moonslav59]

I always thought Nomar was better than Jeter on both sides of the ball. Other than durability, I always thought Jeter was WAY over rated. AROD was better than both at the time, but I always thought Jeter was worst of the three.

 

While I had issues with Nomar's defense, he was way better than Jeter on D. IMO, Jeter is the worst defensive SS in my time watching baseball (not counting scrubs who hardly played.)

 

Nomar was a much better hitter but for a much shorter time.