Sandy Leon vs. JBJ--who brings more value on defense and overall

[Maxbialystock]

Short and sweet (a rarity for me), my vote is for Leon both ways because this year for the first time I can see the difference Leon makes with the rotation, which is huge.

 

JBJ could be the greatest defensive CF is MLB history, which he certainly is not, and Leon would still be more valuable on defense because pitching is the dominant factor in any team's defense and gets tested roughly 120 times per game. And good catchers, as we have seen with Leon, make a difference on how effective those 120 pitches are (even though the lion's share of the work is by the pitchers). Centerfielders get tested--non-routine plays--maybe 2 or 3 times a game, if that.

 

For JBJ to be worth more than Sandy, I think his OPS would have to be at least .800.

 

The only complication to my thesis is that on this team Vazquez is still the #1 catcher because of his better hitting, and in my opinion JBJ is still the #1 centerfielder, despite his weak hitting.

Edited May 22, 2019 by Maxbialystock

[jacksonianmarch]

JBJ has looked like he lost a step out there this year. He’s also a very minus defender right now, -11.9 UZR/150. Leon came back and all of a sudden, Sale is mowing people down. Could be coincidence, but a pitchers comfort is important and if Leon unlocks your ace, then he’s worth his weight in gold

[mvp 78]

JBJ has looked like he lost a step out there this year. He’s also a very minus defender right now, -11.9 UZR/150. Leon came back and all of a sudden, Sale is mowing people down. Could be coincidence, but a pitchers comfort is important and if Leon unlocks your ace, then he’s worth his weight in gold

 

Some of us had faith this would happen, but you were very skeptical.

[mvp 78]

There's room for both Leon and JBJ on this roster. I'm not sure why the conversation the past few days has been "pick one."

[bosoxmal]

Neither one has any value/

[moonslav59]

JBJ has looked like he lost a step out there this year. He’s also a very minus defender right now, -11.9 UZR/150. Leon came back and all of a sudden, Sale is mowing people down. Could be coincidence, but a pitchers comfort is important and if Leon unlocks your ace, then he’s worth his weight in gold

 

I believe JBJ had a minus UZR/150 early last year, too.

 

I don't pay too much attention to short sample defensive metrics, but it is interesting he's got such a low number. The eye test does not agree.

[mvp 78]

I believe JBJ had a minus UZR/150 early last year, too.

 

I don't pay too much attention to short sample defensive metrics, but it is interesting he's got such a low number. The eye test does not agree.

 

I'm sorry, but my eye test doesn't show JBJ to be doing anything superhuman this year. He had one nice game saving catch that Mookie would have made as well. He's fine defensively, but he's not the best CF even in his division.

[notin]

I’m actually leaning towards the “Time to move on from JBJ” side.

 

The smart move might be to non-tender him and try to bring back Porcello...

[jacksonianmarch]

I have watched a fair amount of Sox games and I see a noticeable difference in JBJ in CF. Still getting good jumps, but he’s been a touch unsure of himself and he’s definitely lost a step

[Bellhorn04]

You can't really compare a CFer to a catcher defense-wise. There's no CERA for outfielders.

[Bellhorn04]

I also think JBJ might be about to go on one of his good streaks with the bat.

[Slasher9]

this will end up being my favorite thread.

 

can we DFA them both?

bring back swi and mookie is as good a CFer as JBj and JDM is as good as a RFer as Mook. that opens up the DH spot for Pearce.

get the duckboats ready!

 

the OP was whining for weeks about "when has JBj ever done anything to save a game defensively". then he makes the biggest catch we will see all year to literally snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. oh, but beni, mook, shoot even JDM would have made that catch! nothing to see here!

[mvp 78]

I also think JBJ might be about to go on one of his good streaks with the bat.

 

Would be nice, but I haven't seen much evidence of him turning it around. Maybe they'll make him retool his swing for the 20th time.

[mvp 78]

this will end up being my favorite thread.

 

can we DFA them both?

bring back swi and mookie is as good a CFer as JBj and JDM is as good as a RFer as Mook. that opens up the DH spot for Pearce.

get the duckboats ready!

 

the OP was whining for weeks about "when has JBj ever done anything to save a game defensively". then he makes the biggest catch we will see all year to literally snatch victory from the jaws of defeat. oh, but beni, mook, shoot even JDM would have made that catch! nothing to see here!

 

I can't keep up with who rants about what anymore, especially in regards to JBJ. All posters that don't have avatars are grouped as one single hive mind to me. It took me years to know the difference between sk7326 and cp176.

[cp176]

I can't keep up with who rants about what anymore, especially in regards to JBJ. All posters that don't have avatars are grouped as one single hive mind to me. It took me years to know the difference between sk7326 and cp176.

 

You think you know the difference huh?

If the thread is simply asking who has more current value JBJ or Leon, I don't see much of a debate at all. Sandy gets the nod. that doesn't mean that the team can't get along with both of them. it can.

JBJ still is very good out there but his occasional great plays although meaningful and fun to look at can't make up in any way how he has failed at the plate. i also think that on occasion, he makes fairly easy plays look a little tougher than they need to be.

[Slasher9]

he makes fairly easy plays look a little tougher than they need to be.

 

he literally does the exact opposite of this.

i think maybe my TV shows the game differently.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[notin]

You can't really compare a CFer to a catcher defense-wise. There's no CERA for outfielders.

 

No, but if we had a hypothetical situation where you were only allowed having a glove-only catcher or a glove-only CF, which is preferable?

 

I think most would agree the catcher is...

[notin]

JBJ still is very good out there but his occasional great plays although meaningful and fun to look at can't make up in any way how he has failed at the plate. i also think that on occasion, he makes fairly easy plays look a little tougher than they need to be.

 

 

I think when Bradley starts to really struggle at the plate, fans start questioning whether or not his defense is really worth it.

 

And I get that...

[mvp 78]

No, but if we had a hypothetical situation where you were only allowed having a glove-only catcher or a glove-only CF, which is preferable?

 

I think most would agree the catcher is...

 

I'd say catcher unless you have another catcher that is decent (not great) behind the plate but kills it with the bat.

[jacksonianmarch]

He’s the worst regular in baseball right now. -1.9 WAR

[mvp 78]

Right now, JBJ has the lowest fWAR and oWAR in MLB. This is more than just "JBJ is struggling again." Per metrics, he's arguably the worst starting player in the league. Will he be there at year end, I don't believe it.

[Bellhorn04]

He’s the worst regular in baseball right now. -1.9 WAR

 

You're not supposed to add together the fWAR of -0.9 and the bWAR of -1.0. Averaging them would be OK.

[Bellhorn04]

This is just turning into another JBJ thread. I guess we need two of them a year now.

[jacksonianmarch]

You're not supposed to add together the fWAR of -0.9 and the bWAR of -1.0. Averaging them would be OK.

 

Sorry, was a typo. -0.9 WAR. A full -0.5 worse than Chris Davis

[Slasher9]

This is just turning into another JBJ thread.

 

that was the OP's plan.

me? i blame Cora.

[Bellhorn04]

JBJ's bWAR was -1.4 a week or two ago. It has bottomed out and is on the upswing, I'm calling it now.

[mvp 78]

This is just turning into another JBJ thread. I guess we need two of them a year now.

 

Actually, YOU created the 2nd thread this year. This is the third.

[mvp 78]

JBJ's bWAR was -1.4 a week or two ago. It has bottomed out and is on the upswing, I'm calling it now.

 

It'd be hard to get much worse though.

[Bellhorn04]

Actually, YOU created the 2nd thread this year. This is the third.

 

Yeah, that was just a quickie poll. And probably not one of my better ideas as a forum participant LOL

[mvp 78]

Yeah, that was just a quickie poll. And probably not one of my better ideas as a forum participant LOL

 

If JBJ takes a while to pull out of this, I expect the number of JBJ posts to keep growing.