10/27 World Series Game 4

[cp176]

What I really liked about all of this was Cora saying that at some point in time it all boils down to having the will to win. What is that you think? Can a will to win be quantitatively measured? This game is numbers oriented but it really is all about the people playing. They believeand expect to win and they do partly because they think they can. I loved watching Sale go off in the bullpen.

[Maxbialystock]

The will to win is an interesting notion, even an attractive one if you are a Sox fan.

 

If you're a Dodgers fan, however, managerial ineptitude transcends all else. And in the bottom of the 6th the Sox fans were just as sure they had the idiot at the helm--dummy Cora whose chief claim to fame, according to a few, was that he was a lucky manager.

 

I find it fascinating that last night ERod threw 93 pitches and Hill threw 91 pitches and one fan base is furious ERod was left in and the other fan base even more furious Hill was removed. And perhaps both are right.

 

Me, I think I can make a case that both managers were equally right/wrong. In Dave Roberts case his starter Hill had told him to keep a careful watch because he could run out of gas. At that point in the game the Dodgers had a 4-0 lead and the comfort of knowing that whoever they sent to the mound in the previous 24 innings was certain to be effective because in those 24 innings the Sox drove in exactly 1 run, a dinger by JBJ. As for Cora, he had a lineup that in the playoffs had been deemed relentless but in the previous 24 innings was moribund and now, thanks to a bad throw by Vazquez, were down 1-0 with the redoubtable Hill and his astounding curve on the mound. Why not let ERod get that last out and save the bullpen a tad because this game could well go extra innings.

 

I personally thought the game was over in the 6th before the Puig dinger and because the lineup was dead, dead, dead. Wrong. This is baseball, and anything can happen. Lightning struck the Dodgers lineup when Puig got that dinger, and the same exact thing happened 1/2 inning later when Moreland, pinch-hitting, did the same thing for the Sox. Land o' goshen!

 

Think about that. Two teams go almost 24 innings scoring a total of 6 runs, only 4 of them earned, and in the space of two half innings--the bottom of the 6th and the top of the 7th--they score 7 runs. And in the subsequent 2 innings they score 8 more runs. In that total of 3 1/3 innings they scored 15 runs including 4 dingers!!!! And let's not forget that Kimbrel, no longer having to worry about tipping his pitches, showed once again why the Sox will be nuts to renew his contract and why Cora had Price warming up in the bullpen with a 5 run lead that was suddenly a 3 run lead with no one out in the bottom of the 9th.

 

So maybe it is was/is a will to win, but I would argue it is impossible for both teams in the World Series and after having to win both division series and league championship series not to have a very strong will to win.

 

What we saw last night was baseball. Amazing baseball.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[OH FOY]

We cut the heart out of the Dodgers, this series is done, just a matter of time. They punched with the best that they got, and almost lost 2 games. Mookie hasn't hit, JD hasn't hit, and we are still winning. Cora and Team know today, you should put in final Knockout Punch. Don't worry about game 6.

[Bellhorn04]

Something else to chew on, Max, about how managerial decisions are viewed:

 

After Game 3 Cora was being criticized in a lot of quarters for 'going all-in' with Eovaldi.

 

After Game 4 we heard a lot about how Eovaldi's performance in Game 3 was very inspirational to the team.

[jung]

Cora had to hold the fort until the Sox got Hill out of the game. It was as simple as that. If Hill had a bionic arm he would still be blowing the Sox away this morning, tonight, whenever. We have no shot at hitting Hill...no shot...never had a shot.

 

Hill's only real failing in this series is that his stuff is curvaceous but weak which would encourage fly balls to Fenway LF here in Boston. So that is the answer to somebody's question from last night. Why not Hill for more starts in this series? Can't really use him in Fenway or if you do you are asking for it.

 

So that is why IMO Cora erred in leaving Erod to pitch to Puig with something like 85 pitches on Erod's arm. Since when does Erod have more pitches than that in his arm. His velocity was already down at that point to just over 90. Just hold the fort Alex until you can get Hill out of the game. Fortunately the Sox came all the way back against their pen.

 

That said, that brings us back to one of the other hero's of this series, Eo. Eo saved our pen in game 3 while Roberts had to use his and the goons Roberts used in Game 3 were if anything less capable in game 4. Madson has come in to 7 inherited runners and all of them have scored just as an example! Imagine his bar conversations over a drink after this series.

 

"Hey, how many inherited runners scored off you in the 2018 WS?"

 

"All of them"

 

Eo has been a monster...just a monster.

Edited October 28, 2018 by jung

[Slasher9]

What I really liked about all of this was Cora saying that at some point in time it all boils down to having the will to win. What is that you think? Can a will to win be quantitatively measured? This game is numbers oriented but it really is all about the people playing. They believeand expect to win and they do partly because they think they can. I loved watching Sale go off in the bullpen.

Cora better hope kimmi & notin don’t read this....

[cp176]

The will to win is an interesting notion, even an attractive one if you are a Sox fan.

 

If you're a Dodgers fan, however, managerial ineptitude transcends all else. And in the bottom of the 6th the Sox fans were just as sure they had the idiot at the helm--dummy Cora whose chief claim to fame, according to a few, was that he was a lucky manager.

 

I find it fascinating that last night ERod threw 93 pitches and Hill threw 91 pitches and one fan base is furious ERod was left in and the other fan base even more furious Hill was removed. And perhaps both are right.

 

Me, I think I can make a case that both managers were equally right/wrong. In Dave Roberts case his starter Hill had told him to keep a careful watch because he could run out of gas. At that point in the game the Dodgers had a 4-0 lead and the comfort of knowing that whoever they sent to the mound in the previous 24 innings was certain to be effective because in those 24 innings the Sox drove in exactly 1 run, a dinger by JBJ. As for Cora, he had a lineup that in the playoffs had been deemed relentless but in the previous 24 innings was moribund and now, thanks to a bad throw by Vazquez, were down 1-0 with the redoubtable Hill and his astounding curve on the mound. Why not let ERod get that last out and save the bullpen a tad because this game could well go extra innings.

 

I personally thought the game was over in the 6th before the Puig dinger and because the lineup was dead, dead, dead. Wrong. This is baseball, and anything can happen. Lightning struck the Dodgers lineup when Puig got that dinger, and the same exact thing happened 1/2 inning later when Moreland, pinch-hitting, did the same thing for the Sox. Land o' goshen!

 

Think about that. Two teams go almost 24 innings scoring a total of 6 runs, only 4 of them earned, and in the space of two half innings--the bottom of the 6th and the top of the 7th--they score 7 runs. And in the subsequent 2 innings they score 8 more runs. In that total of 3 1/3 innings they scored 15 runs including 4 dingers!!!! And let's not forget that Kimbrel, no longer having to worry about tipping his pitches, showed once again why the Sox will be nuts to renew his contract and why Cora had Price warming up in the bullpen with a 5 run lead that was suddenly a 3 run lead with no one out in the bottom of the 9th.

 

So maybe it is was/is a will to win, but I would argue it is impossible for both teams in the World Series and after having to win both division series and league championship series not to have a very strong will to win.

 

What we saw last night was baseball. Amazing baseball.

 

I did not read your entire post yet Max due to tiredness but I will soon. This is a different Red Sox team. All of the things that some feel transcend the realm of statistical proof are evident with this version of the Red Sox. Focus, mental toughness, clutch performances, etc. etc. etc. ! They are good but they also believe in each other and expect to win something they have learned to do over the last few years. Down 4-0 but looking in that dugout - no negative reaction. Take another look at that Dodgers dugout when the Sox tied it up - Game over!!!

I did read some of what you wrote - Of course the Dodgers have had a will to win they have run into a team whose will to win overwhelms them. The Red Sox are that good and the Dodgers aren't.

 

Much of this series has been over coached by both teams. Last night was a clear example once again - Dodgers had a warrior on the mound in Hill. He knew what he was doing and how to do it. Roberts should simply have said screw the odds and stick with the winner. To Cora's credit, he didn't get over the top involved. Just enough. This is my favorite Sox team - no ********, just play,celebrate when you should be celebrating.

[Slasher9]

The problem for Roberts was that hill tagged himself out of that game.

[jung]

The problem for Roberts was that hill tagged himself out of that game.

 

I have seen this posted a good deal and in fact, we don't really know that. We don't know how Hill and Roberts communicate with each other. We don't know one single thing about the professional relationship between them. Just because the way they communicate with each other might not conform to what we have grown used to "seeing" but not experiencing between manager and pitcher does not mean that Hill tagged himself out.

 

Frankly, I am more surprised that Roberts said anything about it to the media. I grow less impressed with him by the minute.

[cp176]

Cora better hope kimmi & notin don’t read this....

 

Slasher - what the hell - i can't sneak one gd thing by you!!!

 

For the record though, I realize the role that analytics play in today's game and I understand there is a place for them all. I do think that they are over done, and somewhat over used, but we aren't going backwards and that is ok. The product on the field is a better product I think than we have seen. I think that we are very fortunate to have a manager that understands baseball players and what makes them tick. Combination old school new school if you will. For my money though, this game never has been and never will be solely about talent. They have brought together a team filled with professionals who I think approach the game the right way.

[cp176]

The problem for Roberts was that hill tagged himself out of that game.

 

 

you sure?

[cp176]

and while we are on the topic of last night's game, at the risk of getting bitched at again, as well as E-Rod pitched last night, his not being able to get his fat ass to second base on that infield roller was ridiculous. I don't give a s*** if he has been injured or was afraid of getting hurt, it is the 5th game of the world series - make the effort. It stood out and was very much out of character for a team that lays it all there on just about every play. Get in shape .

[Bellhorn04]

I did not read your entire post yet Max due to tiredness but I will soon. This is a different Red Sox team. All of the things that some feel transcend the realm of statistical proof are evident with this version of the Red Sox. Focus, mental toughness, clutch performances, etc. etc. etc. ! They are good but they also believe in each other and expect to win something they have learned to do over the last few years. Down 4-0 but looking in that dugout - no negative reaction. Take another look at that Dodgers dugout when the Sox tied it up - Game over!!!

 

The reaction of Puig to Moreland's home run said a lot too. Not only did he not move from his position, he put his hands on his head as if he couldn't believe what Madson had done, or he couldn't believe what Roberts had done bringing Madson in.

 

Not a great signal to your team, especially when you're still leading the game.

[cp176]

The reaction of Puig to Moreland's home run said a lot too. Not only did he not move from his position, he put his hands on his head as if he couldn't believe what Madson had done, or he couldn't believe what Roberts had done bringing Madson in.

 

Not a great signal to your team, especially when you're still leading the game.

 

I saw the same thing and read it the same way. You could see it and you could feel momentum (there I go again) swinging the other way. I think that we have reached a point with L.A. where they expect the Sox to rip them up after they get the first two outs. Obviously anything can happen, but the Red Sox know they can win and I don't think that the Dodgers truly believe that they can.

[moonslav59]

Cora made a few mistakes tonight. ERod has a lot of trouble getting through 6 innings. Even when he has cruised through 5 2/3 innings this season, things have almost always fallen apart for him and prevented him from completing the 6th. Tonight was not the time to try to get ERod through 6. The team bailed him out of that very bad move, when Roberts decided to hand the ball to Madson and Maeda -- two bags of trash.

 

I'm rarely critical of Cora: the guy is the best we've ever had, but I thought he should have been pulled before Turner.

 

I also wondered why he pulled Porcello so early but let ERod go so long.

 

That being said, most of what Cora did yesterday worked.

 

What a ballsy team we have here!

[Maxbialystock]

Something else to chew on, Max, about how managerial decisions are viewed:

 

After Game 3 Cora was being criticized in a lot of quarters for 'going all-in' with Eovaldi.

 

After Game 4 we heard a lot about how Eovaldi's performance in Game 3 was very inspirational to the team.

 

And I was one of the complainers because I was plenty worried we had used up 2 starters in one game and still lost it. But I still think Cora has had an incredible season for a manager because I've watched almost every game and think he makes good decisions.

 

But more than that it appears he has the team thinking the right way and I love the way he looks in the dugout during games. Alert, decisive, and calm--the exact opposite of what a first time manager for a highly paid, highly visible ball club should look.

 

They just fired a guy who took them to the WS in 2013 and won the AL East in 2016 and 2017. Gone. Francona, a perfectly good manager who broke the Curse and then won a 2d WS--gone. In the movie Bull Durham Crash Davis (Kevin Costner) holds forth on how tough MLB pitchers can be, but they ain't nuttin' compared to the Sox front office in the John Henry era. They are currently paying two guys, Pablo and Hanley, a combined $35M this season to stay away from this team.

 

Yet there is Cora--to the manner born. Pretty remarkable.

 

That said, just maybe it's time to recognize the players without whom all this--108 wins, 3 of 4 in the ALDS, 4 of 5 in the ALCS, and now 3-1 in the WS--is impossible.

 

And it has to be said, especially by yours truly, the big fat whiner last night, that last night's game was representative of the best games they've played this season. In fact, it probably is the best game given their situation and what was at stake.

 

So hat's off to all of them and especially Pearce who was interviewed after the game and said the same thing--it was a team effort all the way. I assume everyone has seen the replay of Sale charging guys up in the bullpen I think right before the Sox batted in the 7th.

Edited October 28, 2018 by Maxbialystock

[moonslav59]

I'm going to hold you to that.

 

I've praised his quickness and range, but all along I have worried he'd make a crucial error, but instead he makes a play I doubt Nunez or Holt could have made.

 

I have blasted others for making sweeping statements based on one play, one game, one week or even a half season, so I'm opening myself up to being called a hypocrite, but Devers' defense of late has been flawless and even spectacular at times.

 

Maybe the time off helped. Maybe he's just been more focused. On offense, he always seems to rise to the top when needed most. Now, it seems like his defense does, too.

 

I've said before, I'm fine with giving Devers another year at 3B (2019), but that it worries me about a guy having to learn on the fly right in the midst of a championship run. I'm not worried as much anymore, and besides, I've always felt his bat can and will outweigh any negatives he brings to defense.

 

I've been a huge Devers fan since his first year in the minors. I suggest hundreds of trades a year, but I have never once suggested trading Devers. I'm glad DD never did.

 

I'm looking forward to Devers having a huge year next year at 3B.

 

[Slasher9]

you sure?

 

Roberts said hill told him he was tired. I only coach 13u but if 1 of my players tells me he’s “tired” I yank him right out of the game.

[moonslav59]

Dodgers were 54-0 when ahead by 4 runs or more this year.

 

I admit, I was down after Puig's HR, but I still had a lot of hope we'd pull it out, once Hill was removed.

 

I can understand how many fans get frustrated and lash out with statements they might not really believe, but I keep getting the sense that some fans have had no hope in this team until after a win like last night's.

 

I've done my share in talking down Moreland, but I was glad to see him come up against the righty last night. I didn't expect a homer, but I was not shocked by it.

 

We've been doing this all year, and I guess it still surprises me how often some fans seemingly give up on hope.

 

It's easy being a Sox fan today.

 

Maybe my idea of what a true fan should be is outdated and old school, and maybe being a fan of teams that have had long stretches of ineptitude has taught me to more even keeled and less hyper-reactive, but to me fans should have confidence in the team they love, no matter what.

[S5Dewey]

I've praised his quickness and range, but all along I have worried he'd make a crucial error, but instead he makes a play I doubt Nunez or Holt could have made.

 

I have blasted others for making sweeping statements based on one play, one game, one week or even a half season, so I'm opening myself up to being called a hypocrite, but Devers' defense of late has been flawless and even spectacular at times.

 

Maybe the time off helped. Maybe he's just been more focused. On offense, he always seems to rise to the top when needed most. Now, it seems like his defense does, too.

 

I've said before, I'm fine with giving Devers another year at 3B (2019), but that it worries me about a guy having to learn on the fly right in the midst of a championship run. I'm not worried as much anymore, and besides, I've always felt his bat can and will outweigh any negatives he brings to defense.

 

I've been a huge Devers fan since his first year in the minors. I suggest hundreds of trades a year, but I have never once suggested trading Devers. I'm glad DD never did.

 

I'm looking forward to Devers having a huge year next year at 3B.

 

 

I was absolutely astounded when Devers made that play. He's botched easier plays this year. And the throw was on the money too.

In my coaching I've observed that often times when a player makes a play that I thought was beyond his ceiling that player was 'climbing the ladder', reached a higher rung than I thought he could, and within a short time that became his new normal. Maybe Devers chose the right time to climb that ladder.

[Emp9]

Unbelievable stop. Unbelievable throw to 1B. I rank it up there with all the great OF plays we've seen this post-season by our Sox. It’s the type of play that makes you reevaluate what you previously thought, sure. Don’t sleep on Sloth, bro.

[a700hitter]

I was absolutely astounded when Devers made that play. He's botched easier plays this year. And the throw was on the money too.

In my coaching I've observed that often times when a player makes a play that I thought was beyond his ceiling that player was 'climbing the ladder', reached a higher rung than I thought he could, and within a short time that became his new normal. Maybe Devers chose the right time to climb that ladder.

That was a great play by Devers. When he got up, I thought that he had no chance to make the play and i was hoping that he would eat the ball.

[moonslav59]

Unbelievable stop. Unbelievable throw to 1B. I rank it up there with all the great OF plays we've seen this post-season by our Sox. It’s the type of play that makes you reevaluate what you previously thought, sure. Don’t sleep on Sloth, bro.

 

He has a strong arm, but I was thinking the same thing - Don't throw it! I think that was the nicest play he's made all year, and he's been pretty steady since his return.

[Northern Star]

What a fantastic game!

 

Love seeing the shocked faces of Dodger fans.

 

Sale screaming in the Sox dugout while Dodgers are chiilin' & relaxed on the bench.

 

Moreland huge.

 

Pearce Huge.

 

Holt Huge.

 

Devers huge.

 

Did I mention Pearce huge?

 

Erod huge...just left in too long.

 

Sox pen huge...(until now)

 

 

 

 

And Dave Roberts proving he's still a true loyal Sox guy. Thanks Dave, don't mind if we do.

[moonslav59]

Playoff OPS

 

1.037 Holt

.919 Pearce

.898 Moreland

.853 Martinez

.835 JBJ

.764 Devers

.679 Beni

.670 Nunez

.610 Vaz

.599 Bogey

.593 Leon

.579 Betts

.523 Kinsler

 

RBI/AB

9/30 Devers

5/17 Moreland

13/46 JD

6/23 Holt

10/40 JBJ

8/34 Pearce

 

[moonslav59]

Playoff WHIP

 

0.77 Kelly

0.81 Eovaldi

1.04 Barnes

1.07 Hembree

1.10 ERod

1.11 Porcello

1.32 Price

1.33 Sale

1.38 Brasier

1.59 Kimbrel

10.00 Workman

 

ERA

0.00 Hembree

0.87 Kelly

1.04 Barnes

1.04 Brasier

1.61 Eovaldi

3.52 Porcello

4.26 Price

4.40 Sale

5.91 Kimbrel

6.30 ERod

45.00 Workman

 

[OH FOY]

Bellinger not in Line-up tonight.

[moonslav59]

Playoff OPS

 

1.037 Holt

.919 Pearce

.898 Moreland

.853 Martinez

.835 JBJ

.764 Devers

.679 Beni

.670 Nunez

.610 Vaz

.599 Bogey

.593 Leon

.579 Betts

.523 Kinsler

 

RBI/AB

9/30 Devers

5/17 Moreland

13/46 JD

6/23 Holt

10/40 JBJ

8/34 Pearce

 

 

Betts, Bogey and Beni all under .680, yet....

[a700hitter]

Betts, Bogey and Beni all under .680, yet....

Someone has to pay!

[moonslav59]

Someone has to pay!

 

Too bad this team is so unbalanced!