Dodgers or Brewers?

[jung]

Thought the Owners in NL vote if they want DH or not. Commissioner has nothing to do with it.

 

True...but the Commissioner does have a hand in dealing with the abomination of the advanced shift which should be banned across baseball, both leagues regardless of whether the idiot NL continues to resist the DH. Shifting is fine. The Advanced Shift is a mutation, an abortion that simply turns great plays into mundane BS and encourages ridiculous levels of attempted fence crashing by the hitters.

 

Oh yea... watching fielders just stand there taking hot smashes moving not more than a foot left or right is exciting as all get out. We are turning infielders into the equivalent of lawn chairs with a basket attached to the seat. What did we all think...that there would be some excitement in thinking the fielder might hurt his hand through his mitt catching one of those things? Surprise surprise, there is no excitement in any of it....zipo....zero....nada!!!

[OH FOY]

I like both. Traditional and the DH.

[tom-uk]

Sox match up better w Brewers:

2018 Sox OPS vs LHP .719

LH Starters: Kershaw, Ryu, and Hill, vs. only Miley.

Brewer pitchers bring the heat, Sox best in bigs hitting fastballs.

[jacksonianmarch]

Having the DH has led to a bit of an advantage for AL teams. Think about it. Instead of needing 8 offensive positions filled on a nightly basis, the AL needs 9. This leaves them with one regular player ready to pinch hit in NL home parks and a lineup that’s entirely full in AL parks. The NL teams use their best pinch hitter as a DH, but there’s no point in pointing up big cash for a pinch hitter when team building.

 

This year, both NL teams have acquired DH type talent to flesh out their bench, so I don’t see that as a problem for either squad. Whether it’s Dozier, Muncy, or Freese with the Dodgers or Aguilar/Shaw on the Brewers, they’ll have a starting 9 in Boston worthy of being in the DH spot. This doesn’t happen every season

[sk7326]

True...but the Commissioner does have a hand in dealing with the abomination of the advanced shift which should be banned across baseball, both leagues regardless of whether the idiot NL continues to resist the DH. Shifting is fine. The Advanced Shift is a mutation, an abortion that simply turns great plays into mundane BS and encourages ridiculous levels of attempted fence crashing by the hitters.

 

Oh yea... watching fielders just stand there taking hot smashes moving not more than a foot left or right is exciting as all get out. We are turning infielders into the equivalent of lawn chairs with a basket attached to the seat. What did we all think...that there would be some excitement in thinking the fielder might hurt his hand through his mitt catching one of those things? Surprise surprise, there is no excitement in any of it....zipo....zero....nada!!!

 

why? there are holes in the infield - just in different places. I mean back in the 90s I remember teams shifting for lefthanders - they are just better positioned now. The actual bad part of the shifting is increasing the amount of walks.

[sk7326]

Fantastic post. The commissioner does need to do all he can to try and fix these problems, but the owners are the ones who make the final decisions.

 

I'm not sure why any NL owner clings to their anti-DH stance.

 

Because it costs less money

[jung]

I like both. Traditional and the DH.

 

I would like both as well were it not for the multiple abominations of:

- the juiced baseball

- the advanced shift

- MLB rules changes

 

 

All of which has led to hitters becoming entirely consumed by fence crashing, leaving the yard.

 

The difference is that in the NL, there is still a spot in the batting order for the pitcher.

 

My first thought when looking at the possible consequences of DH v no DH coupled with, rules changes, the juiced baseball and the advanced shift was that the NL would retain some semblance of baseball play in that the pitchers would remain the kinds of bat handlers they always had been, trying to at least have productive AB's even if those productive AB's were productive outs. The exact opposite has happened. Instead, pitchers simply do not even practice bunting in the NL. No pitcher in either league practices with a bat in his hands, entirely consumed with their pitching. They don't even practice at least making effective contact, hitting the ball behind the runner via bat handling either. How do I know that? Because they can't do it anymore. You do what you practice in baseball. You don't practice it, you can't do it. There is nothing IMO in the world of sports harder than hitting a baseball thrown by somebody that knows what he is doing. You don't practice with a bat in your hands, everything you do with a bat in your hands from that day forward is pure dumb luck or the lack of it.

 

So since an NL team has to generate some offense and they have a total black hole in the 9 spot, the rest of the batting order simply tries to leave the building now one batter after the other, before they get to the black hole at 9. The combination of juiced baseball, advanced shift and rules changes have made for that. What does that Pitcher in the 9 hole do when he gets to the plate? Well since he does not really practice doing anything with a bat in his hands, guess what.....he tries to leave the building! What the heck. Everybody else is doing it. I might as well close my eyes and hope to run into something.

 

The total effect of keeping a spot in the batting order for the pitcher combined with everything else in the list of bullet items above is that it turns the modest mess of some AL play into the total disaster of all NL play. Now the NL games have turned into a combination of K's, weak pop ups, fly balls, extra base hits, HR's, BB's and a rare single and even rarer ground out in that order. A Single is usually a ball mishit and beaten out by a speedy hitter. The preponderance of K's and weak pop ups overwhelms everything else by miles. There is no hit and run, no hitting behind runners, little opposite field hitting, no manufacturing runs. There is simply trying to leave. They are so obsessed with trying to leave that not only is a K just fine in pursuit of leaving but a weak pop up, the most pitiful thing in all baseball is just fine in pursuit of leaving the building.

 

As for the fielding, you no longer see DP's in the NL. Nobody is ever on 1st base other than somebody there by virtue of a walk or infield hit for one and since all you have to do in the Advanced Shift is wait for some computer geek to tell you where to stand and wait for the ball to come to you, they can no longer even bend over to make a play. If they do make a play on the ball, they cannot transfer it between the other infielders so as to actually execute a DP. Infielders in the NL spend entire games just standing there waiting to get off the field. That is one heck of way to be prepared to make a play on a ground ball or a hot smash not hit right at you....ANY PLAY at all for that matter. Heck infielders no longer have to have footwork even to defend themselves whether in the AL or the NL.

 

The real difference in the two leagues now is that at least in the AL down in the 9 hole there is a batter, an actual hitter who can handle the bat, a guy that works at his game, that practices with a bat in his hands. Even that guy thinks he should be leaving the building. But at least he practices with a bat in his hands and he CAN hit behind runners, hit and run, maybe even lay down a bunt. They are all trying to leave in the NL, all the way down to the Pitcher trying to run into something. Why even should the 8 hitter in an NL order try to advance runners with a black hole at 9 hitting right behind him?

 

For a multitude of reasons not the least of which is that NL baseball has turned into pure trash, the NL needs to give up holding a spot open in the batting order for the Pitcher. The argument that it maintains a purer form of baseball has been turned entirely on its head by the list of bullet items above in this post. Holding a spot open for the Pitcher has had the exact opposite effect of the argument for it and there is simply no way that even a whole bevy of double switches in a single game makes up for missing out on exciting infield play, hit and run baseball and manufacturing runs.

 

Lets not even get started on the true arcade baseball stupidity of seeing four WS games played one way and 3 others played another way depending on being in an AL or an NL park. Its another whacked out artifact of something that should have been dealt with ages ago. Heck, its only the Series that 30 baseball teams, 1,200 ballplayers, 400 coaches, about 3,000 front office personnel, 5,000 network execs and some millions of fans aim at every year...But who gives a darn when compared to the "sanctity" of pitchers hitting, a sanctity that has been breeched more times than a red light district lady in a Naval Port city.

 

In the name of God, please NL adopt the DH and Manfred please get rid of the advanced shift. If MLB wants to live with the fantasy that it is "protecting" infielders with its stupid rules around the bases, fine. Send a Christmas card to Pedey every year while you are at it.

Edited October 20, 2018 by jung

[notin]

Go Brewers!!

 

And if the Sox can take a 3 games to none lead, game 4 tickets should be cheap and readily available. A 3-1 lead does the same thing for game 5...

[notin]

I would like both as well were it not for the multiple abominations of:

- the juiced baseball

- the advanced shift

- MLB rules changes

 

 

All of which has led to hitters becoming entirely consumed by fence crashing, leaving the yard.

 

The difference is that in the NL, there is still a spot in the batting order for the pitcher.

 

My first thought when looking at the possible consequences of DH v no DH coupled with, rules changes, the juiced baseball and the advanced shift was that the NL would retain some semblance of baseball play in that the pitchers would remain the kinds of bat handlers they always had been, trying to at least have productive AB's even if those productive AB's were productive outs. The exact opposite has happened. Instead, pitchers simply do not even practice bunting in the NL. No pitcher in either league practices with a bat in his hands, entirely consumed with their pitching. They don't even practice at least making effective contact, hitting the ball behind the runner via bat handling either. How do I know that? Because they can't do it anymore. You do what you practice in baseball. You don't practice it, you can't do it. There is nothing IMO in the world of sports harder than hitting a baseball thrown by somebody that knows what he is doing. You don't practice with a bat in your hands, everything you do with a bat in your hands from that day forward is pure dumb luck or the lack of it.

 

So since an NL team has to generate some offense and they have a total black hole in the 9 spot, the rest of the batting order simply tries to leave the building now one batter after the other, before they get to the black hole at 9. The combination of juiced baseball, advanced shift and rules changes have made for that. What does that Pitcher in the 9 hole do when he gets to the plate? Well since he does not really practice doing anything with a bat in his hands, guess what.....he tries to leave the building! What the heck. Everybody else is doing it. I might as well close my eyes and hope to run into something.

 

The total effect of keeping a spot in the batting order for the pitcher combined with everything else in the list of bullet items above is that it turns the modest mess of some AL play into the total disaster of all NL play. Now the NL games have turned into a combination of K's, weak pop ups, fly balls, extra base hits, HR's, BB's and a rare single and even rarer ground out in that order. A Single is usually a ball mishit and beaten out by a speedy hitter. The preponderance of K's and weak pop ups overwhelms everything else by miles. There is no hit and run, no hitting behind runners, little opposite field hitting, no manufacturing runs. There is simply trying to leave. They are so obsessed with trying to leave that not only is a K just fine in pursuit of leaving but a weak pop up, the most pitiful thing in all baseball is just fine in pursuit of leaving the building.

 

As for the fielding, you no longer see DP's in the NL. Nobody is ever on 1st base other than somebody there by virtue of a walk or infield hit for one and since all you have to do in the Advanced Shift is wait for some computer geek to tell you where to stand and wait for the ball to come to you, they can no longer even bend over to make a play. If they do make a play on the ball, they cannot transfer it between the other infielders so as to actually execute a DP. Infielders in the NL spend entire games just standing there waiting to get off the field. That is one heck of way to be prepared to make a play on a ground ball or a hot smash not hit right at you....ANY PLAY at all for that matter. Heck infielders no longer have to have footwork even to defend themselves whether in the AL or the NL.

 

The real difference in the two leagues now is that at least in the AL down in the 9 hole there is a batter, an actual hitter who can handle the bat, a guy that works at his game, that practices with a bat in his hands. Even that guy thinks he should be leaving the building. But at least he practices with a bat in his hands and he CAN hit behind runners, hit and run, maybe even lay down a bunt. They are all trying to leave in the NL, all the way down to the Pitcher trying to run into something. Why even should the 8 hitter in an NL order try to advance runners with a black hole at 9 hitting right behind him?

 

For a multitude of reasons not the least of which is that NL baseball has turned into pure trash, the NL needs to give up holding a spot open in the batting order for the Pitcher. The argument that it maintains a purer form of baseball has been turned entirely on its head by the list of bullet items above in this post. Holding a spot open for the Pitcher has had the exact opposite effect of the argument for it and there is simply no way that even a whole bevy of double switches in a single game makes up for missing out on exciting infield play, hit and run baseball and manufacturing runs.

 

Lets not even get started on the true arcade baseball stupidity of seeing four WS games played one way and 3 others played another way depending on being in an AL or an NL park. Its another whacked out artifact of something that should have been dealt with ages ago. Heck, its only the Series that 30 baseball teams, 1,200 ballplayers, 400 coaches, about 3,000 front office personnel, 5,000 network execs and some millions of fans aim at every year...But who gives a darn when compared to the "sanctity" of pitchers hitting, a sanctity that has been breeched more times than a red light district lady in a Naval Port city.

 

In the name of God, please NL adopt the DH and Manfred please get rid of the advanced shift. If MLB wants to live with the fantasy that it is "protecting" infielders with its stupid rules around the bases, fine. Send a Christmas card to Pedey every year while you are at it.

 

The shift is just a defensive alignment, and if hitters would get out of their "exit velocity/launch angle" mode, it becomes easier to defeat.

 

But the DH thing is flat out stupid, and always was. Either bring it into both leagues or not at all. Not sure why the NL didn't just start out with it in 1973 along side the AL. But this different set of rules for each league is silly. And the strategic element in the NL has been dead for a long time...

[jung]

The shift is just a defensive alignment, and if hitters would get out of their "exit velocity/launch angle" mode, it becomes easier to defeat.

 

The Shift IS IMO just a defensive alignment and I am fine with it. Its the Advanced Shift that is wrecking havoc within the game itself. The Shift would actually be very difficult to legislate against. However the Advanced Shift, the Overload, would be easy to kill off via rule and an outright ban. Its the Overload that is the real killer anyway.

 

The problem with asking hitters to "beat the Advanced Shift, the Overload" is that the ball starts in the hands of the Pitcher. Every play, everything that happens in baseball starts with a pitch and the Battery represents the only element on the field that is directing the pitch. They alone, Pitcher and Catcher knows what they are trying to accomplish with each pitch, what pitch will be thrown and its intended location. The only way to give Hitters a reasonable shot at beating the Advanced Shift would be for Hitters to be told where the pitch is going. At that point you would destroy baseball completely.

 

Simply too great an expectation to expect hitters to be able to beat the Advanced Shift enough times. Get rid of the juiced baseball and maybe you would have a shot at making that compromise. Does anybody believe we will go back to the pre-2016 baseball? Not me. Simply too much incentive with the juiced baseball to simply try to hit over the Overload.

 

We should have realized that the Advanced Shift would continue to grow into the monster it has become. It was obvious that the more data that could be compiled on each hitter, the more each hitter would face not just a Shift but an Advanced Shift, an Overload. The most dangerous hitters face the most Advanced Shifts. Keep the Shift. Kill the Advanced Shift, the Overload. Unless you can put laser sights on baseball bats, hitters will never be able to beat Overloads unless you tell them exactly what the pitcher is trying to do with each pitch and which pitch he is going to throw and its intended location. Once you do that, you completely destroy the game of baseball. We are simply incentivizing baseball toward a one dimensional power game and that is just boring as heck baseball. Anybody that thinks the NL game is "exciting" baseball needs his head examined. While the DH has saved the AL for now us baseball enthusiasts are likely just kidding ourselves if we think the AL is working on anything more than a temporary reprieve from the AL looking year by year more and more like the mess of NL baseball.

[Kimmi]

Pretty easy to Manage in the AL. If you like that. A few Minor moves, and Pitching changes. Score means nothing, to your Starter. You could Pitch him 9 and lose. Maybe a couple of Match-up changes. Nothing hard. Count to 100, and your Starter is gone. That's a toughie. That's done in both Leagues, so sabermetrics took that out. 120 Pitches today you better be Pitching a No-Hitter. Game has changed. Less feel for it, more Computer.

 

I think a strong argument can be made that managing in the AL is more difficult than managing in the NL.

[moonslav59]

I have no issues with the shift.

 

I do have issues with players who fail to adjust or even try to adjust. I think, over time, players will learn ways to beat the shift, and maybe change the way they are defensed.

 

Plus, they used a shift on Ted Williams, so it's not like it's brand new.

[notin]

I have no issues with the shift.

 

I do have issues with players who fail to adjust or even try to adjust. I think, over time, players will learn ways to beat the shift, and maybe change the way they are defensed.

 

Plus, they used a shift on Ted Williams, so it's not like it's brand new.

 

The shift was old even when it was used on Ted Williams.

 

It was actually called “The Williams Shift” because it was first used in the 1920’s and 30’s against Cub/Phillie slugger Fred “Cy” Williams.

 

Why were so many old-times ball players nicknamed “Cy” and none since?

[d-money]

Looks like it will be the dodgers. Gonna face some good pitching but we did against the stros as well. Out starters will have to pitch well.

[OH FOY]

Rod Carew said he wished they had the shift against him when he played. He said he would have added 30 points to his Lifetime Average.

[d-money]

I hate Los Angeles! Let’s destroy them!!!

[moonslav59]

Rod Carew said he wished they had the shift against him when he played. He said he would have added 30 points to his Lifetime Average.

 

They would not have put a shift on Rod.

[d-money]

Dodgers have that experience from last season. Is that an advantage over us? I don’t see it.

[jacksonianmarch]

They’ve got the left handed starters and would benefit from using them in games 1-3. Throw Buehler game 4 and hope to catch lightning in a bottle. The Dodgers are one of the deeper teams in the post season while the Sox aren’t as deep, they are the best. This is gonna be a good series. I still predict Sox in 6, but I am clearly rooting for Dodger blue

[Youk Of The Nation]

They’ve got the left handed starters and would benefit from using them in games 1-3. Throw Buehler game 4 and hope to catch lightning in a bottle. The Dodgers are one of the deeper teams in the post season while the Sox aren’t as deep, they are the best. This is gonna be a good series. I still predict Sox in 6, but I am clearly rooting for Dodger blue

 

As long as every team you root for continues to lose, I'm a happy man.

[BOSOX11]

Time to fly my Red Sox flag, just to irritate the s*** out of my neighbors.

[YastrzemskI]

Funny.. I’m in the LA area and most of my neighbors are Red Sox fans. The hat is worn year round.

[TylerD]

Bring it Dodgers.

[redsoxrules]

They’ve got the left handed starters and would benefit from using them in games 1-3. Throw Buehler game 4 and hope to catch lightning in a bottle. The Dodgers are one of the deeper teams in the post season while the Sox aren’t as deep, they are the best. This is gonna be a good series. I still predict Sox in 6, but I am clearly rooting for Dodger blue

 

You do realize that LA sucks even more against lefties right? Boston has proved in the playoffs that it doesn't matter if they are facing a lefty or not . They've won anyways

[jung]

They would not have put a shift on Rod.

 

That is absolutely right. They would not shift Rod. But that is really the point. Computer databases now create an environment where pumping enough data at the database allows virtually every hitter tendency to be exposed and the result is Overload shifts used all the way down to the bottom of lineups. The only players that escape it are the true all field hitters. However, was anybody ever going to admire Rod for his power hitting? You don't get both kinds of hitting out of one hitter more than once, maybe twice in a generation. More might be able to do it for a single year...but not more than that. We have one Trout and one Mookie and Mookie has not even done it long enough yet to be in the Trout category.

 

I don't want to see baseball based on computer databases. If somebody wants to play fantasy baseball based on computer databases, they are welcome to knock their minds out. But it is the advent of computer databases combined with the Advanced Shift, the Overload that makes for the anomaly of fat turd infielders simply positioned so that every play they make is made one foot left or right of where they are positioned. I don't need to see the result of fat turd infielders simply allowed to succeed based on what a computer tells them to do. I need to see great pitching by Pitchers, great plays by great Infielders/OFer's and great hitting by great Hitters.

 

Again everything that happens in baseball starts with a pitch. The battery knows what pitch and what location they are going to. In fact, the Shortstop and 2nd baseman knows what pitch and what location they are going to. The hitter doesn't know either the pitch or the location. The hitter can't do more than guess. You are just never going to see hitters able to beat that in combination with the Overload unless they try to hit over it, an effort that creates its own kind of boring baseball.

 

Teams should be allowed to put their OFer's anyplace they want to. They should be allowed to put their infielders two either side of 2nd base. With that one restriction put them anywhere you want to put them. You just can't aim baseballs with any precision with a baseball bat unless the hitter knows what pitch is coming to what location.

 

The result is that baseball is caught between a rock and a hard place:

- Force hitters to try to aim for spots on the field and the power game will be completely gone from baseball. That would appear to be the opposite of what MLB wants.

- Force the battery to tell the hitter the pitch and the location, and you don't even have baseball any longer. You just killed the game itself.

- keep going the way they are going with these ungodly infield Overload Shifts and its like you have poured molasses over the entire field and taken all of the speed and agility out of the game substituting in fat turd infielders that have been "positioned" to make plays.

 

In fact, it has gotten so bad now that i am using last year's terminology. The MLB page dedicated to Shift or Shifting is no longer making a distinction between what had been called the Shift and what had been called the Advanced Shift or the Overload. Now starting with this year, all Shifts are Overloads and unless a team Overloads, it is no longer even considered a Shift. A Shift is now what used to be called an Overload Shift. In other words they are only counting three infielders on one side of 2nd base as a Shift. They are so deep into this mess now that they are not even counting AB's as a reference point for total Shifts. They are counting PA's instead. In other words, they think the Shift has become such a factor in baseball that they believe it is now driving the entire contest between hitter and battery/defense. Is that really what we think will make for exciting baseball?

 

So based on those numbers, PA's v Shifts....182,911 PA's yielded 31,816 Shifts for the year 2018. If they used AB's you would likely have something like 120,000 AB's yielding 31,816 Shifts. Those numbers do not even count Shifts within PA's and we all now know that teams are Shifting based on the Count, not just the Hitter but the count for that Hitter in that PA! I don't even want to think what that total Shift number would be....has to be north of 45,000 total shifts all in.

 

So where is all this really going? Just take the players off the field and let Fantasy leagues knock their minds out playing the game with computer generated players performing based on computer generated positioning and that is really the point. Computer baseball is NOT real baseball. Sorry to tell all you Fantasy Baseball fans that think you are actually doing something that correlates to real baseball. Have all the fun you want to have. It does not correlate to real baseball and MLB is treading on very dangerous ground here.

Edited October 21, 2018 by jung

[notin]

T

 

I don't want to see baseball based on computer databases. If somebody wants to play fantasy baseball based on computer databases, they are welcome to knock their minds out. But it is the advent of computer databases combined with the Advanced Shift, the Overload that makes for the anomaly of fat turd infielders simply positioned so that every play they make is made one foot left or right of where they are positioned. I don't need to see the result of fat turd infielders simply allowed to succeed based on what a computer tells them to do. I need to see great pitching by Pitchers, great plays by great Infielders/OFer's and great hitting by great Hitters.

 

 

Not only baseball but every sport is based on computed databases. It's funny people like to call out fantasy baseball, but FBB probably has fewer databases and algorthms than MLB.

 

 

And MLB teams can out their infielders anywhere they want. If they want the shortstop to position himself in section 213 Row C, let them. Maybe MLB should also make a rule where pitchers have to throw the ball where the hitter want s it, too. And to make it easier, throw in underhand.

 

As irrelevant as you think those last two sentences are, prior to 1894, those actually were the rules. But making teams play a certain way has always and always will prevent the game fro evolving.

 

Let the shift run it's course. There is nothing in the rulebook that gives any sort of leverage to the commissioner to ban it, beyond some fans don't like it. But like all fads, it will go away on its own..

[jung]

Not only baseball but every sport is based on computed databases. It's funny people like to call out fantasy baseball, but FBB probably has fewer databases and algorthms than MLB.

 

 

And MLB teams can out their infielders anywhere they want. If they want the shortstop to position himself in section 213 Row C, let them. Maybe MLB should also make a rule where pitchers have to throw the ball where the hitter want s it, too. And to make it easier, throw in underhand.

 

As irrelevant as you think those last two sentences are, prior to 1894, those actually were the rules. But making teams play a certain way has always and always will prevent the game fro evolving.

 

Let the shift run it's course. There is nothing in the rulebook that gives any sort of leverage to the commissioner to ban it, beyond some fans don't like it. But like all fads, it will go away on its own..

 

This "fad" has gone from slightly over 2,000 shifts per year to over 31,000 of what used to be called an Overload shift per year and is effecting the talent level of the ballplayers on the field. I think we are beyond a fad at this point. Joe Maddon re-invented the Overload starting with PA's to David Ortiz in 2006. So we are 12 years into a "fad" that has grown 15x since then.

 

And MLB and the Commissioner can absolutely legislate the Overloaded infield.

 

And yes, if anybody is wondering, total shifts were up again 2018 over 2017.

Edited October 21, 2018 by jung

[Kimmi]

Dodgers have that experience from last season. Is that an advantage over us? I don’t see it.

 

Nope.

[jung]

Dodgers have that experience from last season. Is that an advantage over us? I don’t see it.

 

Not a factor.

[Kimmi]

They’ve got the left handed starters and would benefit from using them in games 1-3. Throw Buehler game 4 and hope to catch lightning in a bottle. The Dodgers are one of the deeper teams in the post season while the Sox aren’t as deep, they are the best. This is gonna be a good series. I still predict Sox in 6, but I am clearly rooting for Dodger blue

 

You should just bite the bullet, and become a Red Sox fan.

 

You'd be so much happier.