The 2018 Bullpen Season Thread

[Bellhorn04]

Hembree 8IP 8H 5ER

 

Reed 8IP 1ER 9K

 

Priceless

 

Troll.

[MADSTORK]

Truth hurts doesn’t it?

[Bellhorn04]

Truth hurts doesn’t it?

 

Yeah, this 11-2 record is killing me.

 

Still think 86 wins is a gift?

[MADSTORK]

Yeah, this 11-2 record is killing me.

 

Still think 86 wins is a gift?

 

Hard to justify Tampa and Miami as legit major league lineups

 

Outside of Kimbrel the BP is a train wreck

Starting pitching will be suspect with a lefty dominate staff not to mention the injury history of Price Rodriquez and Pomeranz

 

I keep it in perspective the pink hats do not !

[Bellhorn04]

Hard to justify Tampa and Miami as legit major league lineups

 

Outside of Kimbrel the BP is a train wreck

Starting pitching will be suspect with a lefty dominate staff not to mention the injury history of Price Rodriquez and Pomeranz

 

I keep it in perspective the pink hats do not !

 

You obviously can't keep s*** in perspective, predicting 86 wins for a team that won 93 and added JD Martinez.

[cp176]

You obviously can't keep s*** in perspective, predicting 86 wins for a team that won 93 and added JD Martinez.

 

he kind of lost it here don't you think when he said pink hat types - I don't really know that that expression has much meaning but I'm pretty sure that we aren't it whatever it is!

I think that the bullpen will ultimately be ok once things get sorted out. Maybe Johnson winds up out there. I will say though that if the emphasis is going to be on trying to limit pitchers to just a few over or under 100 pitches,then the bullpen is going to be stressed most of the time. Just getting through 6 solid innings looks good for our guys for the most part I think.

[moonslav59]

he kind of lost it here don't you think when he said pink hat types - I don't really know that that expression has much meaning but I'm pretty sure that we aren't it whatever it is!

I think that the bullpen will ultimately be ok once things get sorted out. Maybe Johnson winds up out there. I will say though that if the emphasis is going to be on trying to limit pitchers to just a few over or under 100 pitches,then the bullpen is going to be stressed most of the time. Just getting through 6 solid innings looks good for our guys for the most part I think.

 

Hopefully Smith finds his groove. Maybe this has just been an adjustment phase for him.

 

It remains to be seen if 2017 was a fluke for Kelly, Barnes & Hembree.

 

We still have a lot of pitchers on the DL who will be coming back soon. Some tough choices may have to made (trade out-of-options Hembree?), but our pen, on paper, should get stronger as the year preogresses.

 

(Alert: projecting any pen's future production is nearly impossible.)

 

 

[MADSTORK]

You obviously can't keep s*** in perspective, predicting 86 wins for a team that won 93 and added JD Martinez.

 

 

I state facts. Fact is the bullpen outside of closer was not addressed. The same starting staff (minus Sale in 16) is 1 6 in playoff games. Sox add Martinez without mentioning other Teams have added equal or greater depth. Yankees Angels Astro's Guardians Twins and Mariners all have equal or far better talent.

 

It comes down to Starting Pitching, your 8th inning set up and Closer during a playoff run. The Redsox have done nothing to address the latter outside of Closer. Far more greater concern is the lack of Scouting Drafting and Development of Pitching within the Organization. Dombrowski's first move should have been to revamp the Minor League development system but he didn't. Baird, Crockett and a host of other evaluators should have been replaced much like Epstein did in 03-04 in Boston then again in Chicago.

 

Boston is a Playoff Contender not a Championship Contender as constructed at the moment

 

But that is ok. Some fans and Posters like a playoff contender

[harmony]

I state facts. Fact is the bullpen outside of closer was not addressed. The same starting staff (minus Sale in 16) is 1 6 in playoff games. Sox add Martinez without mentioning other Teams have added equal or greater depth. Yankees Angels Astro's Guardians Twins and Mariners all have equal or far better talent.

 

It comes down to Starting Pitching, your 8th inning set up and Closer during a playoff run. The Redsox have done nothing to address the latter outside of Closer. Far more greater concern is the lack of Scouting Drafting and Development of Pitching within the Organization. Dombrowski's first move should have been to revamp the Minor League development system but he didn't. Baird, Crockett and a host of other evaluators should have been replaced much like Epstein did in 03-04 in Boston then again in Chicago.

 

Boston is a Playoff Contender not a Championship Contender as constructed at the moment

 

But that is ok. Some fans and Posters like a playoff contender

Another fact: The Red Sox are in third place in the American League in relief pitching fWAR:

 

https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=al&qual=0&type=8&season=2018&month=0&season1=2018&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0&sort=18,d

[moonslav59]

I state facts. Fact is the bullpen outside of closer was not addressed. The same starting staff (minus Sale in 16) is 1 6 in playoff games. Sox add Martinez without mentioning other Teams have added equal or greater depth. Yankees Angels Astro's Guardians Twins and Mariners all have equal or far better talent.

 

It comes down to Starting Pitching, your 8th inning set up and Closer during a playoff run. The Redsox have done nothing to address the latter outside of Closer. Far more greater concern is the lack of Scouting Drafting and Development of Pitching within the Organization. Dombrowski's first move should have been to revamp the Minor League development system but he didn't. Baird, Crockett and a host of other evaluators should have been replaced much like Epstein did in 03-04 in Boston then again in Chicago.

 

Boston is a Playoff Contender not a Championship Contender as constructed at the moment

 

But that is ok. Some fans and Posters like a playoff contender

 

I think the thought was having Carson Smith for a full season and Thornburg for the end of the season would be enough to "upgrade" a pen that did very well last year, even if it might have been a bit of a fluke.

 

We also had Workman coming back for the full year and maybe the idea that Wright, Johnson and/or Velazquez might fill a long reliever role nicely once our starters returned.

 

I don't fault DD for not adding a pen arm last winter.

[Bellhorn04]

Last night's game suggests that Cora is liking Hembree and Kelly as the 7th and 8th inning guys right now.

 

Barnes and Smith have been used sparingly of late. Barnes in fact has pitched only once since April 15.

[Station 13]

Last night's game suggests that Cora is liking Hembree and Kelly as the 7th and 8th inning guys right now.

 

Barnes and Smith have been used sparingly of late. Barnes in fact has pitched only once since April 15.

 

There's a reason why Barnes or others are hardly seen, the starters are pitching deep in games. As it also a ROAD games, we sometime only pitch 8 innings.

[MADSTORK]

I think the thought was having Carson Smith for a full season and Thornburg for the end of the season would be enough to "upgrade" a pen that did very well last year, even if it might have been a bit of a fluke.

 

We also had Workman coming back for the full year and maybe the idea that Wright, Johnson and/or Velazquez might fill a long reliever role nicely once our starters returned.

 

I don't fault DD for not adding a pen arm last winter.

 

 

2 5 last seven games

 

Pitching now becoming a liability both relief and starting.

Somebody better fault somebody

[oldtimer]

Hopefully Smith finds his groove. Maybe this has just been an adjustment phase for him.

 

It remains to be seen if 2017 was a fluke for Kelly, Barnes & Hembree.

 

We still have a lot of pitchers on the DL who will be coming back soon. Some tough choices may have to made (trade out-of-options Hembree?), but our pen, on paper, should get stronger as the year preogresses.

 

(Alert: projecting any pen's future production is nearly impossible.)

 

 

 

Smith has been very shaky so far. Maybe he is tipping his pitches, but he definitely is getting hit hard. We were kind of counting on more from him. Hembree and Barnes don't have a solid history. Both throw hard but their command is an issue.

 

Starting pitching has not been that strong either. Price worries me the most. Gopher balls to the Rays?

[moonslav59]

"...Hembree and Barnes don't have a solid history. Both throw hard but their command is an issue...."

 

Hembree's going in the right direction at a steady pace:

 

BB/9

4.5 in 2014

3.2 in 2015

3.0 in 2016

2.6 in 2017

2.0 in 2018

 

Barnes is another story:

3.1 in 2015

4.2 in 2016

3.6 in 2017

7.0 in 2018

[Bellhorn04]

2 5 last seven games

 

Pitching now becoming a liability both relief and starting.

Somebody better fault somebody

 

Calm down, Stork. 20-7 still ain't too bad.

 

If you've ever actually followed baseball you'd know that every team goes through rough patches.

 

Even the best teams lose at least 60 games in a season.

[Larry Cook]

That is true, teams go through rough patches.

 

But our pitchers are not executing their pitches like they were earlier in the year.

 

This needs to change if we are going win games. We can not out hit the opposition every game.

[cp176]

How often to real pitchers come along? Kimbrel is one! Cora brings him in in the 8th and he fully expects and absolutely wants to be the one to finish the game. Most would give lip service to this but Kimbrel is the real deal. To not do what it takes to sign this guy would be non-smart IMO. I do not believe that players with his talent are easily if ever replaceable.

[Bellhorn04]

Kimbrel is a special talent without a doubt. The question comes down to how much will it take to keep him. He will be one of the big prizes on the free agent market.

[notin]

How often to real pitchers come along? Kimbrel is one! Cora brings him in in the 8th and he fully expects and absolutely wants to be the one to finish the game. Most would give lip service to this but Kimbrel is the real deal. To not do what it takes to sign this guy would be non-smart IMO. I do not believe that players with his talent are easily if ever replaceable.

 

Who? Do we really have bullpens full of pitchers who complain about getting 4 outs and getting saves?

[cp176]

noin - lip service - they might be willing but unable to do it. Delete that part of my sentence if you wish. My statement was about Kimbrel and his abilities. You are making an effort to take a part of a sentence that is meant to make a positive statement and turn it into a negative. For the record i will say though that there are tons of players who say that they can do certain things when in reality they pretty much can't.

[notin]

noin - lip service - they might be willing but unable to do it. Delete that part of my sentence if you wish. My statement was about Kimbrel and his abilities. You are making an effort to take a part of a sentence that is meant to make a positive statement and turn it into a negative. For the record i will say though that there are tons of players who say that they can do certain things when in reality they pretty much can't.

 

Kimbrel is very talented.

 

But I think most players out there believe they can and want every chance to do his job.

 

I do doubt the Sox are able to keep Kimbrel. Dombrowski has already made multiple efforts to acquire his successor. Smith hasn't impressed anyone yet, but is very good. Thornburg has yet to pitch and hopefully is over his issues soon.

[oldtimer]

Kimbrel is very talented.

 

But I think most players out there believe they can and want every chance to do his job.

 

I do doubt the Sox are able to keep Kimbrel. Dombrowski has already made multiple efforts to acquire his successor. Smith hasn't impressed anyone yet, but is very good. Thornburg has yet to pitch and hopefully is over his issues soon.

 

Smith hasn't looked good at all. Hitters look like they know what is coming.

[mvp 78]

Kimbrel is very talented.

 

But I think most players out there believe they can and want every chance to do his job.

 

I do doubt the Sox are able to keep Kimbrel. Dombrowski has already made multiple efforts to acquire his successor. Smith hasn't impressed anyone yet, but is very good. Thornburg has yet to pitch and hopefully is over his issues soon.

 

The success rate for pitchers with Thoracic Outlet Syndrome is dismal. Thornburg and Smith are probably not the answers. Maybe DD thinks they have a guy in the minors that can do it?

 

I'd rather just sign Kimbrel.

[moonslav59]

I'm fine with keeping Kimbrel, although his cost will be very high for a position that is often filled at a much cheaper cost (see Uehara).

 

It would almost certainly mean we lose Pomeranz, but the way Velazquez is looking, maybe we'll be okay just finding a 6th starter to take the place of Velazquez next winter.

[mvp 78]

I'm fine with keeping Kimbrel, although his cost will be very high for a position that is often filled at a much cheaper cost (see Uehara).

 

It would almost certainly mean we lose Pomeranz, but the way Velazquez is looking, maybe we'll be okay just finding a 6th starter to take the place of Velazquez next winter.

 

Also often filled with mediocre options that don't provide the value that Kimbrel does. I'd rather a defined closer than a crapshoot which 2013 was (you'd really have to add together the salaries of Bailey, Uehara and Hanrahan).

[moonslav59]

Also often filled with mediocre options that don't provide the value that Kimbrel does. I'd rather a defined closer than a crapshoot which 2013 was (you'd really have to add together the salaries of Bailey, Uehara and Hanrahan).

 

Those 3 combined will not come close to what Kimbrel will make for multiple years.

 

Also, 2 of those 3 look bad in hindsight, but those 2 got hurt.

 

I'm not saying I want to trust Smith, Thornburg and Kelly next year, but my philosophy is not to pay over about 5% of our player payroll on a closer. Kimbrel may cost 7-9%.

[mvp 78]

If you philosophy is to not employ the best closer you can sign, it's not a philosophy I'd sign up for.

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats

 

Ty Buttrey has 21 K and 3 BB in 9.1 IP in the Pawtucket bullpen. Jalen Beeks is at 37 K and 6 BB in 19.2 IP in the rotation. Both were added to the 40-man roster and presumably will debut at some point this season.

 

I'd like to see Beeks start, but he's probably going to pitch out of the BOS pen this year.

 

Buttrey could be a gem. The only guy with a real closer skillset.

[moonslav59]

If you philosophy is to not employ the best closer you can sign, it's not a philosophy I'd sign up for.

 

I think the closer is an important role on any winning team, but we can't employ the best at every position. It's a trade-off.

 

Many teams, including the Astros have proven you can win without a light-out closer.

 

I love Kimbrel, and would like to keep him, but paying him Chapman money will mean we can't keep someone else ... and not just for next year either. Kimbrel's contract will be close to 9% of our player payroll for 3-5 more years.

 

I hated to see Pablebon go, but it was the right thing to do. (I felt that way at the time and still do in hindsight.)

 

It won't be easy to find the next Uehara, if there even is one. I have close to zero percent confidence in anyone in our system at this moment in time, but I suppose that could change by this coming winter.