2017/18 Hot Stove Thread

[moonslav59]

Yeah, they haven't tried to get him to work on his weakness yet. He should be fine in 4 months. These guys aren't dumb.

[Larry Cook]

Yeah, they haven't tried to get him to work on his weakness yet. He should be fine in 4 months. These guys aren't dumb.

 

These guys aren’t dumb? Didn’t desperate dave just go into a Season thinking Pablo could handle 3rd base for us?????

[Spudboy]

Final say and personal attacks can suck a dick, imo.

 

I know a lot of people don't like my posting, but I don't try to go out and be s*****. ******** like you're sitting at the bar talking about the Sox, but don't be an *******.

 

Exactly.

[Spudboy]

He has a rifle for an arm. A big league third baseman's arm.

 

He does have a cannon. He just needs to work on his footwork and tone down the hurried throws.

 

At the same time he needs to know when to hurry up because the batter can get down the line.

 

He is 20. And while at least one big brain here believes that 4 years of pro ball should be enough to be a good defender and that because he is not presently one he probably will never be one I say just work with him. That is exactly the type of thing Cora is very good at from what I have read.

 

Patience.

[Spudboy]

These guys aren’t dumb? Didn’t desperate dave just go into a Season thinking Pablo could handle 3rd base for us?????

 

When did Dombrowki ever say Pablo was the answer at 3rd base? All along he said that Pablow would have to perform to be the starter and that he would be given that opportunity.

 

Stop making s*** up just because you have an irrational hate for the man. Pick on something obvious like the way he combs his hair or the cheesy used car salesman wardrobe.

[notin]

This doesn’t make any sense. No pitcher goes for a pop up. As a pitcher, you don’t want the hitters to put the ball in play in the air. A pop up is a few tenths of an inch on the bat away from being a HR. Pitchers want early contact down for the ground ball or strikeouts later in the count. You don’t go after a hitter saying, “I’m going to elevate here and get a pop up”. If you’re elevating, it’s to put someone away

 

Actually Jon Lester and Matt Cain (when he was good) spent years living in the top sliver of the strike zone doing just that...

[moonslav59]

He does have a cannon. He just needs to work on his footwork and tone down the hurried throws.

 

At the same time he needs to know when to hurry up because the batter can get down the line.

 

He is 20. And while at least one big brain here believes that 4 years of pro ball should be enough to be a good defender and that because he is not presently one he probably will never be one I say just work with him. That is exactly the type of thing Cora is very good at from what I have read.

 

Patience.

 

Stop misrepresenting my position.

 

1) I said I'm fine with keeping Devers at 1B, if we make big strides in building up our offense at 1B.

2) I said I think Devers can become a decent defensive 3Bman over time but have concerns about the "learning curve" and "on-the-job-training" during the next two years of highly competitive runs for the ring.

3) My comment on Devers having already played 4 years of pro ball was aimed at the idea that somehow he is magically going to grow exponentially on defense in 4 months of off-season practice, when working on his defense has been a big focus for 4 years already.

 

I never said 4 years is all you should give a 17 year old prospect to sink or swim.

 

My idea of signing Moustakas, instead of Hosmer is more about not liking Hosmer than liking Moose. Moose is a better power hitter but worse at OBP. We need power. The improvement on defense at 3B for maybe 2 years tips the balance for me.

 

I'd rather see us sign JD Martinez or trade for Stanton. I've even mentioned I like Santana slightly more than Moose. All of these moves would keep Devers at 3B, so it's not like I'm leading a parade to move Devers off 3B.

 

Now, go ahead and get in your passive aggressive last word.

[moonslav59]

When did Dombrowki ever say Pablo was the answer at 3rd base? All along he said that Pablow would have to perform to be the starter and that he would be given that opportunity.

 

Stop making s*** up just because you have an irrational hate for the man. Pick on something obvious like the way he combs his hair or the cheesy used car salesman wardrobe.

 

I think DD also felt Hernandez was a capable replacement for Pablito, but then he got hurt.

[notin]

Crazy impossible three way trade that will never happen

 

Cubs get: Jackie Bradley

Marlins get: Addison Russell, Michael Chavis and Rusney Castillo

Red Sox get: Giancarlo Stanton, Edinson Vazquez and Martin Prado

 

Marlins free tons of money, even with taking back Castillo, whose Cuban heritage is a plus for them. (As is his defense.) They also get 3 arbitration years of a very good tshortstop. And a good 3b prospect.

 

Cubs fill the biggest hole in their lineup with a guy their FO drafted and do so without dropping $70-80 mill on Lorenzo Cain.

 

Sox get a new LF, SP, and Prado, who is otherwise immovable to the Marlins. A lot of money, although Volquez has only one year left. Prado really can't play 2b anymore and might end up platooning at first with either an internal candidate (Swihart? ) or a cheap external one (non-tender candidate CJ Cron?)

 

I might be too far outside the box here. Where's that box again?

Edited November 10, 2017 by notin

[moonslav59]

Crazy impossible three way trade that will never happen

 

Cubs get: Jackie Bradley

Marlins get: Addison Russell, Michael Chavis and Rusney Castillo

Red Sox get: Giancarlo Stanton, Edinson Vazquez and Martin Prado

 

Marlins free tons of money, even with taking back Castillo, whose Cuban heritage is a plus for them. (As is his defense.) They also get 3 arbitration years of a very good tshortstop. And a good 3b prospect.

 

Cubs fill the biggest hole in their lineup with a guy their FO drafted and do so without dropping $70-80 mill on Lorenzo Cain.

 

Sox get a new LF, SP, and Prado, who is otherwise immovable to the Marlins. A lot of money, although Volquez has only one year left. Prado really can't play 2b anymore and might end up platooning at first with either an internal candidate (Swihart? ) or a cheap external one (non-tender candidate CJ Cron?)

 

I might be too far outside the box here. Where's that box again?

 

I'd even add Beeks or Shawaryn or Travis (assuming we add a 1Bman).

[cp176]

Stop misrepresenting my position.

 

1) I said I'm fine with keeping Devers at 1B, if we make big strides in building up our offense at 1B.

2) I said I think Devers can become a decent defensive 3Bman over time but have concerns about the "learning curve" and "on-the-job-training" during the next two years of highly competitive runs for the ring.

3) My comment on Devers having already played 4 years of pro ball was aimed at the idea that somehow he is magically going to grow exponentially on defense in 4 months of off-season practice, when working on his defense has been a big focus for 4 years already.

 

I never said 4 years is all you should give a 17 year old prospect to sink or swim.

 

My idea of signing Moustakas, instead of Hosmer is more about not liking Hosmer than liking Moose. Moose is a better power hitter but worse at OBP. We need power. The improvement on defense at 3B for maybe 2 years tips the balance for me.

 

I'd rather see us sign JD Martinez or trade for Stanton. I've even mentioned I like Santana slightly more than Moose. All of these moves would keep Devers at 3B, so it's not like I'm leading a parade to move Devers off 3B.

 

Now, go ahead and get in your passive aggressive last word.

 

No offense here meant Moon at all but some of us truly do not believe in the cliff concept at all. We don't see the sense of urgency that you see with respect to the next few years. I don't mind being considered blind or naive or someone who is simply in denial either. If the decision is made to at some time move Devers to first base with respect to making our team better, I will be on board with that as well. Since I do not believe in the impending closing of a wnner's window, I am also Ok with him being left at third.

[moonslav59]

No offense here meant Moon at all but some of us truly do not believe in the cliff concept at all. We don't see the sense of urgency that you see with respect to the next few years. I don't mind being considered blind or naive or someone who is simply in denial either. If the decision is made to at some time move Devers to first base with respect to making our team better, I will be on board with that as well. Since I do not believe in the impending closing of a wnner's window, I am also Ok with him being left at third.

 

I respect your opinion, but I think even if you don't believe in the cliff, you must feel we might have a good chance at winning a ring in the next year or two. Beyond that doesn't really involve how we see Devers growing at 3B on defense. By then, we should know, if he's going to stick or not, anyways.

 

I do not think we will win a ring or lose depending on our 3B defense. There's hardly ever just one area that makes or breaks a season. I do, however, think it could be a factor in winning the division vs a wild card. I do think we could lose a key playoff game due, in part, to an error by Devers.

 

Like I said, I'm not looking for ways to move Devers to 3B. I'm fine with him staying at 3B, if we can seriously boost our offense at 1B somehow. I do not see Hosmer as a good choice. He will cost too much and want too many years. He's not a significant power upgrade over Moreland. I'd be fine keeping Devrs at 3B, if we get JD, Stanton or even Santana, but if we can't get one of those three, and trade options involve opening new holes, then I'll take Moose over Hosmer 100%. Moose is noit my plan A, B or C, so I'm not sure why people are acting like moving Devers is my top priority. It isn't.

 

Moose offers way more raw power than Hosmer. We'd surely be better on defense for at least a year or two. That's all I'm saying.

 

The "urgency" part of my argument is not the over-riding factor in choosing Moose over Hosmer, and who knows, maybe Devers moves back to 3B from 1B/DH in 2-3 years, even if we sign Moose. Moose might be moved to 1B in year 2-3 of his 4-5 year deal.

 

[Nick]

No offense here meant Moon at all but some of us truly do not believe in the cliff concept at all. We don't see the sense of urgency that you see with respect to the next few years. I don't mind being considered blind or naive or someone who is simply in denial either. If the decision is made to at some time move Devers to first base with respect to making our team better, I will be on board with that as well. Since I do not believe in the impending closing of a wnner's window, I am also Ok with him being left at third.

 

I agree. It's not as though Henry's going to demand that Sox follow, say Marlins financial game plan and cut back on player salaries. We will always be one of big spenders. We do have some salaries coming off in two years. Pablo, Hanley and Porcello makes $60M together. That will surely pay for two big free agents, maybe one this year and another one next year. We may need to plug holes with $5-$7M type players. You can only have so many $30M plus guys.

Edited November 10, 2017 by Nick

[cp176]

I respect your opinion, but I think even if you don't believe in the cliff, you must feel we might have a good chance at winning a ring in the next year or two. Beyond that doesn't really involve how we see Devers growing at 3B on defense. By then, we should know, if he's going to stick or not, anyways.

 

I do not think we will win a ring or lose depending on our 3B defense. There's hardly ever just one area that makes or breaks a season. I do, however, think it could be a factor in winning the division vs a wild card. I do think we could lose a key playoff game due, in part, to an error by Devers.

 

Like I said, I'm not looking for ways to move Devers to 3B. I'm fine with him staying at 3B, if we can seriously boost our offense at 1B somehow. I do not see Hosmer as a good choice. He will cost too much and want too many years. He's not a significant power upgrade over Moreland. I'd be fine keeping Devrs at 3B, if we get JD, Stanton or even Santana, but if we can't get one of those three, and trade options involve opening new holes, then I'll take Moose over Hosmer 100%. Moose is noit my plan A, B or C, so I'm not sure why people are acting like moving Devers is my top priority. It isn't.

 

Moose offers way more raw power than Hosmer. We'd surely be better on defense for at least a year or two. That's all I'm saying.

 

The "urgency" part of my argument is not the over-riding factor in choosing Moose over Hosmer, and who knows, maybe Devers moves back to 3B from 1B/DH in 2-3 years, even if we sign Moose. Moose might be moved to 1B in year 2-3 of his 4-5 year deal.

 

 

I think that those are all good arguments. You have to think that DD is looking at some of these situations in the same light to be honest. I don't even want to make a guess as to how it all will be worked out but I do think that it will get worked out.

[moonslav59]

I agree. It's not as though Henry's going to demand that Sox follow, say Marlins financial game plan and cut back on player salaries. We will always be one of big spenders. We do have some salaries coming off in three years. Pablo, Hanley and Porcello makes $60M together. That will surely pay for two big free agents, maybe one this year and another one next year. We may need to plug holes to $5-$7M type players. You can only have so many $30M plus guys.

 

Nobody is saying Henry is going to cut back on the salary budget. I will say, he's never had an opening day roster above $200M. I think he will in 2018.

 

He could be at $220M by 2021, and we will still have to say good bye to several big impact players before then just to stay at $220M. Yes, maybe we can do alright with several $5-7M players, but we're going to need some significant input from the farm.

 

I guess what gets me the most is that it seems like, and I'm not linking all cliff deniers together, those who had no issue with trading away prospects, because we can't count on them to do anything anyways, especially the single A prospects, are now putting faith in our current farm system to help solve the problem in 2021. A farm that is much lower ranked than it was 1-2 years ago.

 

I'm not saying our farm is totally depleted, but I feel like we are going to need more than 3 or 4 current prospects doing well in 2021.

 

I hope to hell I'm wrong. I'm hopeful we can avoid last place finishes or even losing records, but I just don't see the probabilites being all that great for us to be contenders, even with a budget of $220M paying....

 

$31M Price

$13M Pedey

 

$32M Sale

$27M Betts

$22M Bogey

$20M Kimbrel

$18M Pom and JBJ

 

That's $180M in just 8 players. (That's not counting who we sign this winter.)

 

+ Arbs for Beni, Devers and others

[Jack Flap]

I do think we're well-positioned to win in 2018-19 (after which Sale, the various B's, and others will start hitting free agency if not extended), independent of whether or not one believes in the "cliff."

[Carpin]

Crazy impossible three way trade that will never happen

 

Cubs get: Jackie Bradley

Marlins get: Addison Russell, Michael Chavis and Rusney Castillo

Red Sox get: Giancarlo Stanton, Edinson Vazquez and Martin Prado

 

Marlins free tons of money, even with taking back Castillo, whose Cuban heritage is a plus for them. (As is his defense.) They also get 3 arbitration years of a very good tshortstop. And a good 3b prospect.

 

Cubs fill the biggest hole in their lineup with a guy their FO drafted and do so without dropping $70-80 mill on Lorenzo Cain.

 

Sox get a new LF, SP, and Prado, who is otherwise immovable to the Marlins. A lot of money, although Volquez has only one year left. Prado really can't play 2b anymore and might end up platooning at first with either an internal candidate (Swihart? ) or a cheap external one (non-tender candidate CJ Cron?)

 

I might be too far outside the box here. Where's that box again?

 

I heard the Cubs want Benintendi, if you switch them is a proposal the cubs might take, by the way I don't see the Marlins taking on Castillo, they want to go as low as possible with the payroll, they might accept a lower level prospect instead of him

[Slasher9]

The idea of dealing JBJ is simply because the Red Sox could actually improve CF internally.

 

2017 WAR:

Benintendi: 2.6

JBj: 2.8

[sk7326]

2017 WAR:

Benintendi: 2.6

JBj: 2.8

 

Wrong internal improvement

[notin]

I heard the Cubs want Benintendi, if you switch them is a proposal the cubs might take, by the way I don't see the Marlins taking on Castillo, they want to go as low as possible with the payroll, they might accept a lower level prospect instead of him

 

Benintendi was number 26 on Fangraphs trade value list. Russell was 40. Bradley 46. 40 for 46 seemed like the most even swap. If the Cubs want Benintendi, it will cost them a lot more than just Addison Russell.

 

If Castillo is removed, I'd also take out Prado. Personally I prefer Castillo to Prado, who is pretty much done and owed $28mill over the next two years. Castillo ($37mill over the next 3) is owed more for longer, but also is more likely to contribute. Neither is a key component in the trade.

 

I do figure since Castillo is at least a decent defensive player, he can add value with his glove. Prado is now an oft-injured worn down player who provided negative value in a quarter of a season last year

 

Personally I'd rather have Castillo among the two. So I am assuming Miami also would.

 

Both can be left out...

[cp176]

I do think we're well-positioned to win in 2018-19 (after which Sale, the various B's, and others will start hitting free agency if not extended), independent of whether or not one believes in the "cliff."

 

Has nothing to do with a belief in a mythical coming cliff. That is reality. Pretty sure that everybody is aware that contracts come to their conclusion. Players get traded, drafts are dealt with, new contracts get signed. Do you think maybe that this reality that has always existed represents some sort of dark foreboding cliff that we hear so much about? It surely has given some a topic to talk, vent, and gripe about. That's about it .

[Spudboy]

I think DD also felt Hernandez was a capable replacement for Pablito, but then he got hurt.

 

I think you are right. He traded the obvious replacement away without bringing in another 3b man. Between Hernandez and Holt he probably figured they could get by for the short term at least.

[Spudboy]

Stop misrepresenting my position.

 

1) I said I'm fine with keeping Devers at 1B, if we make big strides in building up our offense at 1B.

2) I said I think Devers can become a decent defensive 3Bman over time but have concerns about the "learning curve" and "on-the-job-training" during the next two years of highly competitive runs for the ring.

3) My comment on Devers having already played 4 years of pro ball was aimed at the idea that somehow he is magically going to grow exponentially on defense in 4 months of off-season practice, when working on his defense has been a big focus for 4 years already.

 

I never said 4 years is all you should give a 17 year old prospect to sink or swim.

 

My idea of signing Moustakas, instead of Hosmer is more about not liking Hosmer than liking Moose. Moose is a better power hitter but worse at OBP. We need power. The improvement on defense at 3B for maybe 2 years tips the balance for me.

 

I'd rather see us sign JD Martinez or trade for Stanton. I've even mentioned I like Santana slightly more than Moose. All of these moves would keep Devers at 3B, so it's not like I'm leading a parade to move Devers off 3B.

 

Now, go ahead and get in your passive aggressive last word.

 

I have no need to get that last word in. I merely do not agree with your opinion. The one that you keep repeating.

[moonslav59]

I have no need to get that last word in. I merely do not agree with your opinion. The one that you keep repeating.

 

So, when you respond, it's not "the last word". When I do, it is. Okay.

 

One reason I keep repeating it, is because people keep misrepresenting it.

[moonslav59]

I heard the Cubs want Benintendi, if you switch them is a proposal the cubs might take, by the way I don't see the Marlins taking on Castillo, they want to go as low as possible with the payroll, they might accept a lower level prospect instead of him

 

Word is they may pay part of his deal.

 

I bet they'd rather have Castillo than Pay $35M cash.

[Jack Flap]

Has nothing to do with a belief in a mythical coming cliff. That is reality. Pretty sure that everybody is aware that contracts come to their conclusion. Players get traded, drafts are dealt with, new contracts get signed. Do you think maybe that this reality that has always existed represents some sort of dark foreboding cliff that we hear so much about? It surely has given some a topic to talk, vent, and gripe about. That's about it .

 

I basically agree...not a "cliff" person myself, either.

[Carpin]

Word is they may pay part of his deal.

 

I bet they'd rather have Castillo than Pay $35M cash.

 

 

They been on record saying that they want to shed payroll and don't see how getting Castillo fits that plan.

 

I don't think they would accept Castillo or pay a penny of that atrocious contract, they just want to dump it. I haven't heard a single thing about the marlins paying a portion of what's owed to Stanton.

[Carpin]

Benintendi was number 26 on Fangraphs trade value list. Russell was 40. Bradley 46. 40 for 46 seemed like the most even swap. If the Cubs want Benintendi, it will cost them a lot more than just Addison Russell.

 

If Castillo is removed, I'd also take out Prado. Personally I prefer Castillo to Prado, who is pretty much done and owed $28mill over the next two years. Castillo ($37mill over the next 3) is owed more for longer, but also is more likely to contribute. Neither is a key component in the trade.

 

I do figure since Castillo is at least a decent defensive player, he can add value with his glove. Prado is now an oft-injured worn down player who provided negative value in a quarter of a season last year

 

Personally I'd rather have Castillo among the two. So I am assuming Miami also would.

 

Both can be left out...

 

I agree that the Cubs might need to add a little more than Russell, maybe they take on Prado contract to offset the difference.

 

This way

 

Red Sox get Stanton and Volquez

Cubs Get Benintendi and Prado

Marlins Get Russell and Chavis

 

That way the Sox do not have to take on Prado's contract and the Marlins don't have to take on Castillo's

[OH FOY]

Major League games played career

Benintendi 185

JBJ 527

Screw WAR Trading Benni is going to big mistake, Theo and his team were always good Talent evaluators, if they want him, it means keep him.

Edited November 10, 2017 by OH FOY!

[moonslav59]

Major League games played career

Benintendi 185

JBJ 527

Screw WAR Trading Benni is going to big mistake, Theo and his team were always good Talent evaluators, if they want him, it means keep him.

 

Possible games of team control left:

 

JBJ: 480

Beni: 800