Sale

[S5Dewey]

I'm only asking the question.

 

And that's what I did. What's your answer to your own question?

[moonslav59]

Just a question - don't read anything else into it. Are you suggesting that allowing Sale to pitch 6 or 7 innings might have been acceptable but allowing him to go back out there for one more was not?

 

I did not even want him to start that game. I'd have given him 2 days rest, which would have allowed him to get 2 days off before his final start of the regular season and then an extra day before game 1.

 

Once they started him, I'd have pulled him after 3 or 4 inning- 5 tops.

 

[Bellhorn04]

im all for having either:

1. given him an extra day (which would have been 2 extra days with thursday's off day) and have him start tonight.

2. pulling him after the 5th inning

what i am completely against is:

leaving him in an 8-0 game to throw 111 pitches to get a personal goal.

 

set those goalposts however they need to be set. i havent wavered.

 

You and moon both started out clearly saying you wouldn't have pitched him at all and you would have used a bunch of relief pitchers instead. That's quite a bit different from having Sale start and pulling him after we had a decent lead. Or maybe you think it isn't.

[mvp 78]

im all for having either:

1. given him an extra day (which would have been 2 extra days with thursday's off day) and have him start tonight.

2. pulling him after the 5th inning

what i am completely against is:

leaving him in an 8-0 game to throw 111 pitches to get a personal goal.

 

set those goalposts however they need to be set. i havent wavered.

 

Those are some pretty good goalposts to me.

[mvp 78]

Bigger question, just kidding

 

Is it time to go to 6 man rotation? (not talking about RIGHT NOW but in future). We invest heavily in pitchers. Maybe you don't get a buy in from GM on down, including the pitchers. Say we win the World Series, that's another month worth of pitching.

I don't think it would be a bad idea to start 2018 with 6 starters. I think it's too taxing on the arms to go right back at it. Just a thought.

 

Yes and MLB rosters should be larger, IMO. Maybe a 30 man roster where you pick 25 players each series?

[moonslav59]

If his numbers have taken a major drop because of fatigue, how do you know that one skipped start is enough to turn him around?

 

I don't. Just like you don't know that we need him to start 2 more games instead of 1.

 

It seems like common sense that more rest will lessen the chance for fatigue-related worse starts going forward. If you want to argue otherwise, I'm listening.

 

Also, my idea was not just about 1 game. I wanted him getting extra days off 1-2 starts before his last one, but even if we had pushed him to tonight, he'd have gotten 2 extra days off before his last start and 1 extra before our first playoff game.

 

The plan now is 1 extra day before his next start and none before the last game of the season, if needed. If we don't need him, he will get 4 extra days rest, which I do not like the idea of. Getting all his rest at once might cause rustiness.

 

 

It's possible that the Guardians have figured him out. The two games against them is enough to skew his numbers for the last 6 weeks.

 

You guys are grasping at straws. Even if you throw out the two bad CLE starts, he's had 3 bad starts out of the last 6. (11 ERs in 18 IP in those 3 starts)

 

 

 

He hasn't given up more than 4 runs to any team, besides the two games against the Tribe.

I'm more inclined to believe that he's tipping pitches, rather than he's feeling tired whenever he faces them.

 

Okay, ignore his whole career that shows steady decline after may and then a steeper decline in SEP to concoct another narrative.

 

You could give him a week's rest and the Guardians will probably still light him up in the playoffs.

 

And maybe risk rustiness. Better to spread out the rest over 2-3 weeks and just lose the possibility of him pitching game 162, if needed.

 

Nope.

 

 

The Yankees (the other team that has given him fits lately) have hit him pretty well too.

When he gave up 8 hits and 3 runs to them in May, was he tired then too?

 

Clearly, no. He has no history of tiring in May. may is his best month.... maybe he tipped his pitches...lol.

 

 

Rant as much as you like, but the Sox are going to do the right thing and concentrate on winning the division, THEN worry about the playoffs.

 

Grasp all you want. History shows he declines near year end. It's not a stretch to assume it may be fatigue related and then be proactive about lessening the chance of fatigue in the guy we will need to carry us on his back in the playoffs.

 

The burn him out rants disguised as motivational strategies, record reaching priorities (300Ks), and "JF consulted with him" are neglecting the true goal: winning a ring in a 3-4 year window.

[moonslav59]

Resting key players down the stretch is a luxury. You earn that luxury by securing your playoff spot early. At the moment it's a luxury we don't have because we still have the division to play for. Everyone wants the option, but that doesn't entitle us to pretend we have it when we don't.

 

When the division is in the bag, then it's time to start resting people. Not before. With a competitive division we don't have the luxury of behaving as if we've already clinched. These last 10 games are still important, we can't behave as if they are not.

 

I have not "pretended" to we shouldn't try to win the division. We have over a 90% chance of winning.

 

I have been very clear that my idea does slightly lessen our chances to win the division.

 

How is that "pretending?"

[moonslav59]

no reason to send the pitcher out for the 8th inning in an 8-0 game except for personal goals. once the score was 4-0 in the 4th inning the game was over. That's the bottom line.

 

None of the "burn out Sale" posters are addressing this realistically.

 

"Not stressful innings"

 

"JF consulted with Sale, and he wanted to keep pitching, so that makes it all okay"

 

"Big game motivates him for the playoffs"

 

all are hogwash.

[Slasher9]

You and moon both started out clearly saying you wouldn't have pitched him at all and you would have used a bunch of relief pitchers instead. That's quite a bit different from having Sale start and pulling him after we had a decent lead. Or maybe you think it isn't.

 

i am on record with both goal posts. not sure what the argument is?

did i want him to skip wednesday and pitch tonight? yes

once that didn't happen did i want him to get pulled from the game after 5? yes

once that didnt happen did i want him to get pulled from the game after the 7th with 99 pitches? yes

call it multiple goal posts. call it basing my opinion on what transpired as it transpired. either way.

 

also, here's another goal post for you....

in addition to the extra bullets used up by Sale, we still have a rusty david price. wednesday night was a PERFECT opportunity for mr. $31MM to get work in. you know like the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th inning. instead...Sale threw 111 pitches and got his 300th k this season. awesome.

[moonslav59]

So now there are two separate sets of goalposts on the field. The original argument was whether Sale should have started the game. But now we seem to be hearing more of the argument that it was okay for him to start, but not to throw that many pitches.

 

This whole thing started when I said he shouldn't have even started 2 days ago.

 

Of course, if I didn't want him started, I'd be for limiting his innings, if he did start.

 

I addressed that point made by others.

[mvp 78]

And if Sale ends up getting rocked in the playoffs it's due to "LOL playoffs are random" rather than him being tired from a long season.

[SoxnCycles]

i am on record with both goal posts. not sure what the argument is?

did i want him to skip wednesday and pitch tonight? yes

once that didn't happen did i want him to get pulled from the game after 5? yes

once that didnt happen did i want him to get pulled from the game after the 7th with 99 pitches? yes

call it multiple goal posts. call it basing my opinion on what transpired as it transpired. either way.

 

also, here's another goal post for you....

in addition to the extra bullets used up by Sale, we still have a rusty david price. wednesday night was a PERFECT opportunity for mr. $31MM to get work in. you know like the 6th, 7th, 8th, 9th inning. instead...Sale threw 111 pitches and got his 300th k this season. awesome.

 

Now you're relying on David Price???

 

YOU????

 

 

I don't even want to get to the playoffs now.

The team can't hit, our ace is cooked and we have to rely on an injured relief pitcher to bail us out.

Edited September 22, 2017 by SoxnCycles

[Slasher9]

Now you're relying on David Price???

 

YOU????

 

hahahaha. def not relying. but JF himself said he needs to get price some work. JF doesnt even listen to himself.

[SoxnCycles]

hahahaha. def not relying. but JF himself said he needs to get price some work. JF doesnt even listen to himself.

 

Give Price a side session and call it a day.

[moonslav59]

You and moon both started out clearly saying you wouldn't have pitched him at all and you would have used a bunch of relief pitchers instead. That's quite a bit different from having Sale start and pulling him after we had a decent lead. Or maybe you think it isn't.

 

I jokingly suggested Moreland.

 

I'd have gone with Velazquez for as long as I could, then maybe Price for 2 and/or Workman for 2, maybe use Elias, if needed, and then go to the normal pen knowing we had the next day off.

 

Not only would Sale get 2 days rest for his next start, instead of 1, so would everyone else, unless we wanted to realign starters for the playoffs.

[moonslav59]

And if Sale ends up getting rocked in the playoffs it's due to "LOL playoffs are random" rather than him being tired from a long season.

 

Too funny!

[Bellhorn04]

Nobody knows if extra rest does any good anyway. In 2015 the Jays tried that with Slash's favorite pitcher Price. Didn't work, and there was plenty of second-guessing about whether he was rusty.

[Bellhorn04]

Too funny!

 

Yeah, it's funny, but you're the same one who says Price's bad playoff numbers are the product of randomness and 'tiny sample sizes spread out over a period of years'!

[Slasher9]

Nobody knows if extra rest does any good anyway. In 2015 the Jays tried that with Slash's favorite pitcher Price. Didn't work, and there was plenty of second-guessing about whether he was rusty.

 

David Price:

5 days: 3.38

6+ days: 3.20

 

Stats say extra rest doesnt really matter for Price.

Stats also say that we can expect Price to suck in the postseason. Toronto shouldn't have expected anything different. Just like we shouldn't have expected anything different last postseason.

[devildavid]

And that's what I did. What's your answer to your own question?

 

I think emotion plays a part in performance, but not in the sports cliched way. I think controlled emotion is the best in getting the best performance. I don't think getting too high or low is good for performance.

[greenwell]

No, I see the huge advantage of winning the division, despite WC teams winning a ring during this short time.

 

I have acknowledged that my idea lessens our odds of winning the division slightly. I feel this slight decrease in those odds are worth it, since we aren't going to win a ring- the ultimate goal- without Sale doing better than 50-50 great starts-bad starts, which has been his pattern over the last 10 games.

 

I have heard very little to no acknowledgement from "the other side" that not resting Sale more increases the odds that he will not pitch as well in the playoffs. Evidence shows over Sale's career, he declines sharply in Aug/Sept/Oct. This year's numbers show and even sharper decline. His career numbers with an extra day's rest or more blow away his other numbers. It's not even close, yet there is very close to no acknowledgement of those facts- other than some lip service about the White Sox being out of it every year, so maybe Sale wasn't trying. It couldn't possibly be fatigue related is the inference I'm getting. Nope. Not a chance.

 

Win now. Pitch Sale 8 innings and 111 pitches so he can reach 300. Explain it away as those 111 pitches being non stressful. Explain it as a motivational piece- as if Sale needs motivation for the upcoming playoffs. The guys is a beast and he needs to be set up to maximize his playoff success. It's a valid argument with lots of supporting evidence that is being selective ignored or poo-poo'd by those who feel increasing our odds of winning the division by 1-2% (maybe) and getting Sale 300 ks, at the expense of possible burning out the one guy that has nearly single-handedly carried us through the season is singularly important.

 

It was not a slam dunk choice. If it was (within the organization), I have less faith in Sox management than before.

 

His career numbers actually show that one extra day of rest makes 0 difference. More than one day is a big difference, but if you look in detail you'll see that most of those are either after the all star break or an injury when he has 10+ days of rest. In addition, this tells us nothing about whether or not extra days off have any effect on future games, which is really what matters here. I was all for him coming out of that game after 5, but not adding days off.

[S5Dewey]

I think emotion plays a part in performance, but not in the sports cliched way. I think controlled emotion is the best in getting the best performance. I don't think getting too high or low is good for performance.

 

I agree. Emotion does play a part in performance, but to say that one has to believe that the emotion brings on a physiological change. I believe and always have believed that some players can "amp themselves up" to bring about those physiological changes. In a sports cliched way we refer to that as being "clutch", but whatever you choose to call it, I believe it happens.

[moonslav59]

Yeah, it's funny, but you're the same one who says Price's bad playoff numbers are the product of randomness and 'tiny sample sizes spread out over a period of years'!

 

No, I said his sample size was inconclusive due mostly to its size.

 

Sale's after may decline numbers are a much larger sample size.

[moonslav59]

Nobody knows if extra rest does any good anyway.

 

Yeah, let's play everyone 162 games and start Sale every other day.

 

It's absurd to think extra rest is a cure for fatigue.

[moonslav59]

His career numbers actually show that one extra day of rest makes 0 difference. More than one day is a big difference, but if you look in detail you'll see that most of those are either after the all star break or an injury when he has 10+ days of rest. In addition, this tells us nothing about whether or not extra days off have any effect on future games, which is really what matters here. I was all for him coming out of that game after 5, but not adding days off.

 

Spinmaster extraordinaire

 

Keep believing extra rest does not help alleviate fatigue, at least to some extent.

 

Of course, it guarantees nothing, but clearly team management sees that benefit of resting players when they can.

 

This debate should be about "if we can" or "if we should" and NOT about spinning whether rest actually helps players or not.

[devildavid]

Statistics tell us that Sale has already crossed the point of reduced performance. Resting him now is not a bad idea, unless it means losing the division. But it really is to late to give him the rest that he needed during the entire season, so that he would not arrive at September the same way he always has in the past. It is too late to take back the wear and tear he has already gone through from the innings he has already pitched.

[devildavid]

I agree. Emotion does play a part in performance, but to say that one has to believe that the emotion brings on a physiological change. I believe and always have believed that some players can "amp themselves up" to bring about those physiological changes. In a sports cliched way we refer to that as being "clutch", but whatever you choose to call it, I believe it happens.

 

My view of the use of emotion is that it should help the player relax and have fun and that is the best way to maximize performance.

[greenwell]

Spinmaster extraordinaire

 

Keep believing extra rest does not help alleviate fatigue, at least to some extent.

 

Of course, it guarantees nothing, but clearly team management sees that benefit of resting players when they can.

 

This debate should be about "if we can" or "if we should" and NOT about spinning whether rest actually helps players or not.

 

I'm not the one who 'spun' anything. I just pointed out where you incorrectly quoted stats to help your point. I guess you missed the part where I said I was all for pulling him out after 5 innings. I do think reducing his workload has a good chance of helping his fatigue, but I think keeping him on his regular rotation and cutting back his innings, especially when the game is in hand is the way to do that. If it's so obvious that extra days off will make a difference, then you explain why there is 0 difference between 4 and 5 days rest for Sale.

[moonslav59]

I'm not the one who 'spun' anything. I just pointed out where you incorrectly quoted stats to help your point. I guess you missed the part where I said I was all for pulling him out after 5 innings. I do think reducing his workload has a good chance of helping his fatigue, but I think keeping him on his regular rotation and cutting back his innings, especially when the game is in hand is the way to do that. If it's so obvious that extra days off will make a difference, then you explain why there is 0 difference between 4 and 5 days rest for Sale.

 

I did answer the part about 5 innings.

 

On the 4 and 5 days rest? I don't know, but I'm sticking to the common sense idea that tells me more rest helps those that are fatigued.

[Bellhorn04]

Statistics tell us that Sale has already crossed the point of reduced performance. Resting him now is not a bad idea, unless it means losing the division. But it really is to late to give him the rest that he needed during the entire season, so that he would not arrive at September the same way he always has in the past. It is too late to take back the wear and tear he has already gone through from the innings he has already pitched.

 

Well, he did look pretty good Wednesday night, so it's not all doom and gloom.