Drew Pomeranz was worth it

[Bellhorn04]

I would agree.

 

Then I remembered the Shaw-Thornburg trade. And the Miley trade hasn't looked very good yet, either.

 

And as good as Kimbrel has been, that trade still strikes me as a bad idea at that time. Given the state of the Sox rotation at the time, closer was the last thing they needed and a silly way to spend the farm...

 

1) Agreed about the Shaw-Thornburg trade.

2) I guess you mean because Smith has been injured. If he was healthy it was a clear win. And Miley has been horrible.

3) They were planning on getting Price to bolster the rotation so why not get the closer first. Doesn't really matter what order you do things in.

[cp176]

But does it matter? What if Espinoza is Greg Maddux 2.0? Does that mean getting a dirt cheap quality starter for multiple years was a bad move?

 

Nope - not really questioning the move with respect to either party. Personally if Pomeranz becomes that solid #2 or maybe even the 1- that he might become, it would not matter to me what anyone thought of the trade. I truly hope that Espinoza becomes that guy although I would not bet on him doing it. This trade made sense for us when it was done and if Pomeranz is resigned and continues to pitch at the level he is at, it would continue to make great sense going forward. This was win for the Red Sox the day the ink dried on the minor details.

[Nick]

In my best jeff spicoli voice...."but shouldn't the trade benefit both sides?"

[Nick]

Miley trade has worked out extremely well even without Carson Smith throwing a single pitch. At least I didn't suffer having to watch ugly starts from Wade.

[Nick]

We would have signed Moreland regardless of if Shaw was traded. Devers would not be our starting 3B (perhaps) with Shaw on hand.

 

We're 4 games up.

 

The big mistake was thinking Pablo somehow could come back and be effective. That was worse than any trade we've made.

[OH FOY]

When he's cleared to pitch providing no other problems, he'll be 21 how many innings will they put on him that year. 80 Tops. So now 22 next year 110, 23, 140. Clock is starting to tick at age 24. For him especially, by the time he hits FA he'll be about 30.

That's why I bet they make him a Reliever. You think he comes back goes to Triple AAA, and they tell him to throw 150 innings, first year back from TJS?

By time Espinoza makes the Majors, Pomeranz will be pitching for the Dodgers, making 20+ a year.

Edited September 24, 2017 by OH FOY!

[Maxbialystock]

Pom is a lefty who has no changeup and over relies on a weak ass fast ball. He has a good knuckle curve, but can't keep it low. He does not believe in covering first bast on grounders to the right side even though he sometimes does it. He is easily the worst pitcher I have ever seen with an ERA of 3.15 this late in the season.

[Northern Star]

You were saying?

[Bellhorn04]

You were saying?

 

Wow, one bad start after a bunch of good ones. Sale has had bad starts too. Reactionary much?

[Maxbialystock]

Incredibly stupid at bat by JBJ. 6 straight sliders low and away with one an actual strike, but he just couldn't resist swinging.

[moonslav59]

Incredibly stupid at bat by JBJ. 6 straight sliders low and away with one an actual strike, but he just couldn't resist swinging.

 

Those kind of ABs are highly frustrating to watch, especially when we desperately need men on base.

 

Here's my projection: if JBj gets up again, he hits a walk-off.

[Maxbialystock]

Wow, one bad start after a bunch of good ones. Sale has had bad starts too. Reactionary much?

 

Actually, I've never liked him for the reasons stated, most of which center around his lack of professionalism, beginning with his disdain for covering 1b on grounders hit to the right--which he showed again tonight. He is a lefty with no changeup. He does not keep the ball low. In 32 starts this year, he has 16 quality starts, which is half the time. This is mostly because he has hard time getting to 6 innings. In September, for example, he has 5 starts and 25 innings.

 

comparing Pom to Sale is a travesty because Sale is everything Pom is not, including his willingness to make adjustments which I have never, ever seen Pom do. He just throws the same old s*** and hopes his knuckle curve will get him thru. Sale always covers 1b on grounders to the right and in fact tries to field his position. Pom can't be bothered and in fact throws in a manner which routinely has him finishing toward 3b.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[moonslav59]

Actually, I've never liked him for the reasons stated, most of which center around his lack of professionalism, beginning with his disdain for covering 1b on grounders hit to the right--which he showed again tonight. He is a lefty with no changeup. He does not keep the ball low. In 32 starts this year, he has 16 quality starts, which is half the time. This is mostly because he has hard time getting to 6 innings. In September, for example, he has 5 starts and 25 innings.

 

If only our 3-5 starters could do that!

[Maxbialystock]

If only our 3-5 starters could do that!

 

Too true. Season to date, Pom has unquestionably been our second best starter. This to me, however, is a commentary on Price's injury, Porcello's absolute stinkeroo of a season, and ERod's immaturity in not working harder on commanding his pitches (he overall has good stuff).

 

May I also say you alone have been saying the Sox will win this game. Well done even though we are still 1 down.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Maxbialystock

[moonslav59]

Before tonight...

 

OPS Against

.580 Sale

.680 Price

.705 Pom

.717 ERod

.820 Porc

 

ERA+

164 Sale

143 Pom

127 Price

115 ERod

99 Porc

 

WHIP

0.95 Sale

1.24 ERod

1.25 Price

1.34 Pom

1.39 Porc

 

QS

74% Sale

64% Price

59% Porc

53% Pom

52% ERod

[moonslav59]

Too true. Season to date, Pom has unquestionably been our second best starter. This to me, however, is a commentary on Price's injury, Porcello's absolute stinkeroo of a season, and ERod's immaturity in not working harder on commanding his pitches (he overall has good stuff).

 

Agreed. Pom would be MLB's best 4/5 starter with numbers like his, but sadly, he still is our #2 as of now.

[Maxbialystock]

The latest interview with Pomeranz pretty much sums up how I feel about this big kid. He quite clearly is happy to be here and in no way does he think that we have seen the best of him. he has some solid personal performance goals for the future and I hope we get a chance to see him develop as he moves along. The potential for this pitching staff to be about as good as there is is right there. I would keep as many of them together as I possibly could.

 

Big kid? He's 28 years old and this is his 7th season in MLB to say nothing of his minor league experience. And he still doesn't cover 1b on grounder to the right and he is still without a changeup in a veritable universe of righty batters to face.

[Maxbialystock]

I have to say that Holt is actually a pretty good hitter when the pitcher can't throw strikes. Seriously. It's those darn strikes that cause the problem. But he is just a young kid--barely a year older than that other great youngster Pomeranz--and, you know, is just happy to be here and wants to get better.

[cp176]

Big kid? He's 28 years old and this is his 7th season in MLB to say nothing of his minor league experience. And he still doesn't cover 1b on grounder to the right and he is still without a changeup in a veritable universe of righty batters to face.

 

28 - still a kid yes. i get your frustration with him tonight. I'm not so sure that he is quite as bad as you make him out to be. hard to believe that we are about to win the east with this pitching staff that you are so frustrated with Max. I think that your reaction might be a little over the top.

[cp176]

Agreed. Pom would be MLB's best 4/5 starter with numbers like his, but sadly, he still is our #2 as of now.

 

 

ok - give me the list - how many teams in ml baseball have a #4 or #5 starter who has accumulated 16 wins?

[Bellhorn04]

ok - give me the list - how many teams in ml baseball have a #4 or #5 starter who has accumulated 16 wins?

 

I think what moon is saying is that if Price and Porcello had lived up to what we were hoping for this year, Pom would be a great #4. But because those two have failed Pom is our #2.

[cp176]

I think what moon is saying is that if Price and Porcello had lived up to what we were hoping for this year, Pom would be a great #4. But because those two have failed Pom is our #2.

 

I think that you might be right but I still don't agree with his statement. I don't think that he represents a #4 #5 starter at all anytime. I really think that for the most part you can just throw a hat over E-Rod, Ricky P., and the Pom Pom. One might even go so far as to say weren't we fortunate that our #3#4 guy from last year won a Cy Young. I don't care what number anyone gives to our starters, in this day and age any pitcher with 16 wins ain't looking too bad.

[moonslav59]

ok - give me the list - how many teams in ml baseball have a #4 or #5 starter who has accumulated 16 wins?

 

I think you misread my post.

 

I said he would be MLB's best 4/5 starter, so that implies there is no "list" of better.

 

My point was, he's pitched like a number 2 all season (and the first half of 2016), but with the low IP totals, he'd have been great as our 4th starter had Porcello and Price pitched like 2016 or before.

[moonslav59]

I think that you might be right but I still don't agree with his statement. I don't think that he represents a #4 #5 starter at all anytime. I really think that for the most part you can just throw a hat over E-Rod, Ricky P., and the Pom Pom. One might even go so far as to say weren't we fortunate that our #3#4 guy from last year won a Cy Young. I don't care what number anyone gives to our starters, in this day and age any pitcher with 16 wins ain't looking too bad.

 

It wasn't meant as a slight at all, except maybe towards Price & Porcello.

[cp176]

It wasn't meant as a slight at all, except maybe towards Price & Porcello.

 

Thanks for clearing things up. i still think that the picture with this pitching staff is pretty unclear though. I think that they are pretty good and that is about it. After Sale it gets pretty tough to label any of them I think.

[moonslav59]

Thanks for clearing things up. i still think that the picture with this pitching staff is pretty unclear though. I think that they are pretty good and that is about it. After Sale it gets pretty tough to label any of them I think.

 

Yes, and as well as many have done, particularly in the pen, only Sale and Kimbrel instill high confidence, but I guess one could say guys like Peacock, Morton, Bauer, Tomlin, Montgomery and even CC Sab have question marks next to their names, too.

[Maxbialystock]

28 - still a kid yes. i get your frustration with him tonight. I'm not so sure that he is quite as bad as you make him out to be. hard to believe that we are about to win the east with this pitching staff that you are so frustrated with Max. I think that your reaction might be a little over the top.

 

I have been very specific about what I don't like, but I am also willing to acknowledge his numbers--WAR or ERA--say he has had a good year. Frankly, I think he has been lucky in the same way Sale has been unlucky. Sale, in case you are unaware, is five months younger than Pom but is the consummate professional who has worked hard at this craft and at being a complete pitcher. He is great on grounders to the right. He fields his position well. He has a terrific fastball, but also a good slider and good changeup. This year he has worked hard on staying low in the strike zone. He takes nothing for granted despite his great talent.

[Maxbialystock]

Thanks for clearing things up. i still think that the picture with this pitching staff is pretty unclear though. I think that they are pretty good and that is about it. After Sale it gets pretty tough to label any of them I think.

 

Complete agree. I am hard on Pom but agree the rotation is murky after Sale. Hell, it was worse than murky last year in the ALDS when we had the $30M man Price and the Cy Young winner Porcello bomb in the first two games--I mean just handed those games over to the Guardians.

 

I have seen just two starters--Sale and Fister--actually work on their pitching to make it better. I have seen nothing like that from Pom or from ERod (except maybe for lately). I like Price, and he definitely has good stuff, but I'm not sure he works hard at his tradecraft.

[TylerD]

If he has another bad start maybe we should lock this thread lmao. Could be bad luck.

[a700hitter]

If he never wins another game after this year, the trade will still probably be worth it.