Bullpen sucks

[Thunder]

When you look at the names in the pen, the DL ist of relievers, the tough division we play in and the park we play in, the pen results are phenomenal, so far this year.

 

As much as I dislike JF, he's done a fantastic job with our pitching staff.

 

I completely agree. The fact that statwise it's been one of the best, with the cast and crew that we have, is amazing, and really shines a light on Farrell. I still don't get why so many of you people hate him so much.

[moonslav59]

I completely agree. The fact that statwise it's been one of the best, with the cast and crew that we have, is amazing, and really shines a light on Farrell. I still don't get why so many of you people hate him so much.

 

It's hard to call it "hate" when you're winning like this, but disliking JF is not something that happened overnight.

[CliffKlowers]

How does the bullpen fare statistically with others?

[harmony]

How does the bullpen fare statistically with others?

Here is one measure:

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=all&stats=rel&lg=all&qual=0&type=8&season=2017&month=0&season1=2017&ind=0&team=0,ts&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

[moonslav59]

How does the bullpen fare statistically with others?

 

According to fangraphs, our pen ranks...

 

T6th WAR at 5.2

5th xFIP at 3.87

T1st ERA- at 69

4th WHIP at 1.19 (0.02 from 2nd place)

5th K/BB at 3.03

 

This is simply amazing, considering C Smith, Thornburg and R Ross have been out all year. Those three were essentially considered our 2,3 and maybe 5th best RP'ers on paper.

 

 

[notin]

I completely agree. The fact that statwise it's been one of the best, with the cast and crew that we have, is amazing, and really shines a light on Farrell. I still don't get why so many of you people hate him so much.

 

Farrell isn't a great manager. He's average, maybe even above average. But people want a great manager. And anything less is a weakness. (Of course, Francona was a great manager and easily one of the best in team history and fans complained about him, too. )

 

He isn't Butcher Hobson or Bobby Valentine. It's probably easier to get a worse manager than a better one, despite many of the complaints.

[a700hitter]

Farrell isn't a great manager. He's average, maybe even above average. But people want a great manager. And anything less is a weakness. (Of course, Francona was a great manager and easily one of the best in team history and fans complained about him, too. )

 

He isn't Butcher Hobson or Bobby Valentine. It's probably easier to get a worse manager than a better one, despite many of the complaints.

I wouldn't disagree too energetically with this as most managers suck. I would still put Farrell only in the average category. Edited August 27, 2017 by a700hitter

[S5Dewey]

As most of you may have gathered by now, I've spent most of my adult life in close contact with high school sports, and in doing that I've come to this conclusion. Once a person drops his butt into that seat he knows there are two things he can do better than the person who's currently doing it. He can coach better and he can officiate better.

 

So I take all of this with a grain of salt.

[a700hitter]

As most of you may have gathered by now, I've spent most of my adult life in close contact with high school sports, and in doing that I've come to this conclusion. Once a person drops his butt into that seat he knows there are two things he can do better than the person who's currently doing it. He can coach better and he can officiate better.

 

So I take all of this with a grain of salt.

It comes with the territory, but you know that you can manage better than Farrell. LOL!

[moonslav59]

Farrell isn't a great manager. He's average, maybe even above average. But people want a great manager. And anything less is a weakness. (Of course, Francona was a great manager and easily one of the best in team history and fans complained about him, too. )

 

He isn't Butcher Hobson or Bobby Valentine. It's probably easier to get a worse manager than a better one, despite many of the complaints.

 

It's hard to complain about how JF has handled the staff, particularly the pen.

[cp176]

As most of you may have gathered by now, I've spent most of my adult life in close contact with high school sports, and in doing that I've come to this conclusion. Once a person drops his butt into that seat he knows there are two things he can do better than the person who's currently doing it. He can coach better and he can officiate better.

 

So I take all of this with a grain of salt.

 

Ain't that the truth. Been there.

[SoxHop]

It's hard to complain about how JF has handled the staff, particularly the pen.

 

Him handling the pen well is a mirage............. they can either get the job done or not. It's either a good pen or not....

 

I could have done well the first half handling the pen........ hmmm, I wonder how that would have went.................................

 

....... I smell trouble abrewing.............. I reach into the good old bag of releiver names and pull out a folded sheet of paper. I then unfold it to see that Barnes was what was written on the paper. me....." ummmmm, good......... I picked another 6 foot plus fireballer that is doing well......"

 

Talk to me about not using Kimbrel in the 8th against Cleveland a few games ago...

Edited August 26, 2017 by SoxHop

[Larry Cook]

Farrell is not perfect in how he handles the pen. He makes bizarre moves that make us scratch our heads.

 

But the results have been mostly good. Our bullpen is over worked, had a constant stream of bodies go through and contributed a 5 plus WAR.

 

The biggest job ahead for Farrell is get these guys roles set for the rest of the year and try to manage the workloads.

[moonslav59]

Him handling the pen well is a mirage............. they can either get the job done or not. It's either a good pen or not....

 

I could have done well the first half handling the pen........ hmmm, I wonder how that would have went.................................

 

....... I smell trouble abrewing.............. I reach into the good old bag of releiver names and pull out a folded sheet of paper. I then unfold it to see that Barnes was what was written on the paper. me....." ummmmm, good......... I picked another 6 foot plus fireballer that is doing well......"

 

Talk to me about not using Kimbrel in the 8th against Cleveland a few games ago...

 

I smell trouble, too, but with so many injuries to the pen, the "mirage" did occur, and I'm giving JF some credit for that part of his job.

 

Considering our #2 (Smith), #3 (Thornburg) and #5 (Ross) RP'ers have been out all year, our pen has done way better than expected.

[moonslav59]

Our bullpen is over worked...

 

We've been overworked at times, but our starters are 3rd in MLB in IP'd and 2 IP from the 2nd most.

 

Our pen has pitched 34% or all out IP'd- one more percent than last year.

 

Nobody hoped or expected Barnes and Hembree to have to pitch so much. 3-4 pitchers seem to be taking most of the IP (see 2016 below).

 

Pen IP

60 Barnes

54 Hembree

54 Kimbrel

42 Kelly

36 Abad

30 Scott

28 Boyer

27 Workman

17 Taylor

9 Reed

9 Ross

7 Velazquez

6 Fister

5 N Ramirez

2 Martin

1 ERod

 

In 2016, our pen pitched 33% of all the IP'd, but it was more spread out at the top:

 

6 guys from 47 IP to 67 IP

 

67 Barnes

55 Ross

53 Kimbrel

51 Hembree

50 Tazawa

47 Uehara

30 Ziegler

29 Layne

23 Buch

18 Kelly

13 Ramirez

13 Abad

24 Others

 

[Kimmi]

Farrell is not perfect in how he handles the pen. He makes bizarre moves that make us scratch our heads.

 

But the results have been mostly good. Our bullpen is over worked, had a constant stream of bodies go through and contributed a 5 plus WAR.

 

The biggest job ahead for Farrell is get these guys roles set for the rest of the year and try to manage the workloads.

 

There was a pretty decent article out yesterday or today (can't remember who wrote it) about the criticism that Farrell receives regarding his usage of the pen (and line up construction). The bottom line is that what Farrell does works.

 

If Farrell is mismanaging the bullpen so badly, how are they so good? This author seems to think that Farrell's justifications for what he does are very valid, but the problem lies with his ability to articulate his line of reasoning.

[moonslav59]

There was a pretty decent article out yesterday or today (can't remember who wrote it) about the criticism that Farrell receives regarding his usage of the pen (and line up construction). The bottom line is that what Farrell does works.

 

If Farrell is mismanaging the bullpen so badly, how are they so good? This author seems to think that Farrell's justifications for what he does are very valid, but the problem lies with his ability to articulate his line of reasoning.

 

I've been highly critical of JF for a while, but there is no way he should get any flack for his pen decisions.

 

Before the year started, I felt our pen was our biggest weakness, and that was before Thornburg and Ross went out for the season with injuries, and Carson Smith's scheduled return moved from about June to possibly September. I'm not sure if JF deserves much of the credit, but he certainly should not take any blame for how this pen has performed this year.

 

Getting a close to A performance from a pen that includes these IP'd by these RP'ers is something to be commended:

 

60 Barnes

54 Hembree

36 Abad

30 Scott

28 Boyer

27 Workman

17 Tayloer

35 Others

 

Pitchers with brighter expectations:

54 Kimbrel

0 C Smith

0 Thornburg

9 R Ross

42 Kelly

 

Our pen ranks 6th in RP'er WAR. Considering what JF had to work with, who can complain?

 

5th in xFIP (3.88)

5th K/BB (3.01)

T4th WHIP (1.20)

2nd ERA- (71)

 

[Kimmi]

I agree about the bullpen and Farrell's management of it Moon.

 

I have questioned some of Farrell's bullpen decisions, mainly not bringing Kimbrel into the game in the 8th inning in some of those high leverage spots. But even then, I can understand his reasoning. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.

[moonslav59]

I agree about the bullpen and Farrell's management of it Moon.

 

I have questioned some of Farrell's bullpen decisions, mainly not bringing Kimbrel into the game in the 8th inning in some of those high leverage spots. But even then, I can understand his reasoning. Not that I necessarily agree with it, but I understand it.

 

Of course, disagreeing with a choice here and there is fine.

 

In an overall sense, this pen has way over performed, and it's one reason we are in first place. Blaming JF for our pen's season performance just doesn't make sense to me.