The Bullpen thread

[Kimmi]

The only reason saves matter is because fans overvalue them...

 

Kind of like batting order.

[Kimmi]

He looks to be confident.

 

Kelly puts himself in a little ball.

Barnes is too soft.

Hembree doesn't give a damn.

 

Workman looks like a man out there.

 

Workman deserves a shot. He has been quietly putting up some very good numbers.

[mvp 78]

Kind of like batting order.

 

There's a big difference between valuing an arbitrary statistic and valuing how a team is constructed.

[mvp 78]

Workman deserves a shot. He has been quietly putting up some very good numbers.

 

How Workman is used down the stretch is a big indication of Farrell's ability to manage his bullpen.

[Bellhorn04]

There's a big difference between valuing an arbitrary statistic and valuing how a team is constructed.

 

You're equating how a team is constructed with batting order?

[mvp 78]

You're equating how a team is constructed with batting order?

 

It is the team that gets put on the field. Maybe I should have said "lineup construction" rather than team construction?

[Bellhorn04]

It is the team that gets put on the field. Maybe I should have said "lineup construction" rather than team construction?

 

Kimmi was talking about batting order, as in 'Mookie should not be hitting leadoff!' I'm not sure where the confusion is.

[mvp 78]

Kimmi was talking about batting order, as in 'Mookie should not be hitting leadoff!' I'm not sure where the confusion is.

 

I know what batting order is. Doesn't the manager have a say in the batting order of the team that gets put on the field? Isn't that something that fans can have a say about for various reasons? She's definitely stretching logic by saying caring about saves is the same as caring about batting order.

[Slasher9]

I've got to think we've seen the worst of Reed. He had 19 saves, 2.57 ERA, 48 k to 6 bb. with the Mets.

 

I know the AL is tougher, but I'm thinking his best is yet to come.

 

i hope your right. i fear he can't handle Boston.

[Kimmi]

I know what batting order is. Doesn't the manager have a say in the batting order of the team that gets put on the field? Isn't that something that fans can have a say about for various reasons? She's definitely stretching logic by saying caring about saves is the same as caring about batting order.

 

Fans can have a say in and care about anything they want, including saves.

 

All I'm saying is that fans tend to overvalue the save stat, as they overvalue batting order.

[SoxnCycles]

Fans can have a say in and care about anything they want, including saves.

 

All I'm saying is that fans tend to overvalue the save stat, as they overvalue batting order.

 

It's "Argue with Kimmi Day" and you didn't tell me?

[mvp 78]

How many fans really care about saves though?

[Kimmi]

It's "Argue with Kimmi Day" and you didn't tell me?

 

LOL Apparently, you didn't get the memo.

[mvp 78]

It's "Argue with Kimmi Day" and you didn't tell me?

 

Kimmi has no problem arguing with anyone else. Don't see what the big deal is here. I value Kimmi's opinion as much as anyone else.

[Kimmi]

How many fans really care about saves though?

 

Quite a few.

[Bellhorn04]

How many fans really care about saves though?

 

Not many on this board, I would agree.

 

What gets me is the commentators who make a big deal out of whether it's a save or non-save situation. Makes them sound incredibly stupid.

[mvp 78]

Quite a few.

 

I don't know of any fans that have ever gotten sand in their underpants about the value of wins or saves unless it impacted their fantasy baseball stats.

[mvp 78]

Not many on this board, I would agree.

 

What gets me is the commentators who make a big deal out of whether it's a save or non-save situation. Makes them sound incredibly stupid.

 

In general, commentators are generally stupid. They are far from the average fan.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi has no problem arguing with anyone else. Don't see what the big deal is here. I value Kimmi's opinion as much as anyone else.

 

Thank you.

 

I love a good baseball debate and I love when people disagree with me. That's why I come here.

[oldtimer]

While it had no impact on the game tonight, I had to wonder why robbie Scott came in and threw 3 balls to a hitter with a six run lead. He then threw 4 over the plate, some were fouled before losing the hitter. Then he had to pitch to another batter and he went 2 and 0 on him. i would think he could get the ball over if he wanted to and wound up throwing 20 pitches where he might have thrown 10. Doesn't seem smart to nibble with a 6 run lead.

[Larry Cook]

Do we really need two lefties in the bullpen?

[mvp 78]

Do we really need two lefties in the bullpen?

 

Sure. Why not? Scott and Abad are both good at getting lefties out.

[oldtimer]

Sure. Why not? Scott and Abad are both good at getting lefties out.

 

We have Smith and Thornburg available for next year. Maybe one will make it back and if we are lucky both. That alone would cause a reset of our BP going forward. I would expect a reset with one of Abad or Scott being a man out.

[Kimmi]

Reed had a nice inning last night in a less pressure situation, but what turned out to be a key outing.

 

Also, Barnes looked good. I wonder why he has such a huge difference in his home vs road splits.

[SoxnCycles]

Reed had a nice inning last night in a less pressure situation, but what turned out to be a key outing.

 

Also, Barnes looked good. I wonder why he has such a huge difference in his home vs road splits.

 

Even Barnes doesn't know why his splits are so different.

I read an article on WEEI about it.

 

"I don't know. I honestly don't know," said Barnes regarding the reason for his splits. "If I could tell you I would be able to fix it. Maybe it's a comfort thing. Maybe it's being so used to this mound because you're throwing on it so much more. I don't know. It's always been reversed. I'm my own worse enemy."

 

Hopefully, he gets it figured out soon.

[cp176]

I know what batting order is. Doesn't the manager have a say in the batting order of the team that gets put on the field? Isn't that something that fans can have a say about for various reasons? She's definitely stretching logic by saying caring about saves is the same as caring about batting order.

 

Seriously - correct me if I'm wrong here- It isn't the compilation of the saves that matter, it is how effective the guy is who is doing the pitching. Total saves might tell us something about a closer but certainly not a real significant way to rate them. Might make some of them some more $ I guess. Logic might say that if a pitcher is leading the league in saves, he might be a decent closer I guess.

The batting order is something that is controllable by the manager and although it might not be the most important thing that he does by a long shot, a poorly constructed one might cost a team games. I don't see how there could be an excuse for screwing that one up. In defense of Farrell, I guess I might say that on any given day he might have a variety of choices to fill the key spots in the order. I guess that that is a good thing also.

[Kimmi]

Even Barnes doesn't know why his splits are so different.

I read an article on WEEI about it.

 

"I don't know. I honestly don't know," said Barnes regarding the reason for his splits. "If I could tell you I would be able to fix it. Maybe it's a comfort thing. Maybe it's being so used to this mound because you're throwing on it so much more. I don't know. It's always been reversed. I'm my own worse enemy."

 

Hopefully, he gets it figured out soon.

 

There might be something to the 'comfort' thing. Or it might just be a random, fluky thing.

[mvp 78]

Seriously - correct me if I'm wrong here- It isn't the compilation of the saves that matter, it is how effective the guy is who is doing the pitching. Total saves might tell us something about a closer but certainly not a real significant way to rate them. Might make some of them some more $ I guess. Logic might say that if a pitcher is leading the league in saves, he might be a decent closer I guess.

 

Saves are an arbitrary statistic that tell you how many close games a team has won. Is there a difference in performance if a closer pitches a scoreless 9th and the team wins by 4 or if a closer comes in with a 3 run lead and gives up 2 runs but still finishes the game?

 

The batting order is something that is controllable by the manager and although it might not be the most important thing that he does by a long shot, a poorly constructed one might cost a team games. I don't see how there could be an excuse for screwing that one up. In defense of Farrell, I guess I might say that on any given day he might have a variety of choices to fill the key spots in the order. I guess that that is a good thing also.

 

I think people just have different belief systems regarding where certain types of hitters bat and it's perfectly fine for fans to question Farrell about it. I think fans care about that much more than they care about total saves.

[cp176]

I agree - fans probably care more about the batting order because regardless of where it is on the importance scale if not paying attention to it cost one win, that would be too much .

[Kimmi]

I think people just have different belief systems regarding where certain types of hitters bat and it's perfectly fine for fans to question Farrell about it. I think fans care about that much more than they care about total saves.

 

Question away. All I ever said was that people tend to overvalue line ups, much like they overvalue saves. You are putting far too much into that simple statement.

 

From BP:

 

"In short, most of the hand-wringing and scrutiny of batting orders is for naught. Batting order simply does not make that much difference. Managers tinkering with lineups so rarely shun convention that most of their changes would affect their teams' output by only a few runs over the course of a season.

 

Were it not that the conventional wisdom has become self-fulfilling prophecy—batting order is important because everybody thinks it's important—Martin could have pulled his lineups out of a hat all year long and hardly lost a game in the standings.

 

That's all I'm saying.