Farrell

[S5Dewey]

IMO there are two factions to blame for the bad base running. First are the players. How in Hell does a player get to this point in their careers without knowing the fundamentals of the game like knowing how many outs there are or that you don't try to go from 2nd to 3rd on a ball hit in front of you?? I know we want to blame Farrell for that but it's on the players. I know that Hanley and I are a lot alike in that we both think we can run like we're 22 again. The difference between us is that I don't try to prove it and he does.

 

I know that there's sometimes a fine line between a running game and running wildly. While Farrell doesn't want to discourage taking chances he does need to reinforce the difference between a reasonable gamble and a stupid chance. If he's not trying to reinforce that he should be trying, and if he is trying to he needs to find a new way to do it because what he's doing isn't working.

[notin]

I'd be surprised if he breaks training camp (if there's any training camp left after the hurricane!) as the manager and then gets fired in the first month. If he's there in April it means that the FO has some faith in him and a one month sample size probably won't be reason for them to change their minds. June or July, maybe. :-)

 

The May deadline wasn't a prediction but rather a statement about my level of faith in Farrell. I think it would take an extremely poor start next April to oust him that quickly..

 

But by same token I also strongly believe it will take an equally poor finish for him to be gone before next year. I'm not even all that confident a sweep in the post-season would be enough.

[Emp9]

IMO there are two factions to blame for the bad base running. First are the players. How in Hell does a player get to this point in their careers without knowing the fundamentals of the game like knowing how many outs there are or that you don't try to go from 2nd to 3rd on a ball hit in front of you?? I know we want to blame Farrell for that but it's on the players. I know that Hanley and I are a lot alike in that we both think we can run like we're 22 again. The difference between us is that I don't try to prove it and he does.

 

I know that there's sometimes a fine line between a running game and running wildly. While Farrell doesn't want to discourage taking chances he does need to reinforce the difference between a reasonable gamble and a stupid chance. If he's not trying to reinforce that he should be trying, and if he is trying to he needs to find a new way to do it because what he's doing isn't working.

 

Getting Nunez and Davis, I don't see any less aggressive base running in our future. I think we'll see even more aggressive base running in the post season. I think we'll see an uptick of both "reasonable gambles" and "stupid chances". Although, the reasonable gambles will be from Nunez, Davis, and Betts. The stupid chances from everyone else.

[Maxbialystock]

Love the baserunning talk. Me, I like it aggressive because it's fun to watch. I love to emphasize the importance of hitting and pitching because they are the meat and potatoes of winning games. But to a discriminating palate the menu needs to do better than meat and potatoes especially when hitting and pitching lead to all those interminable kabuki dances between any real action.

 

A pitching duel can be excellent baseball and sometimes I can get really wrapped up in one. But lots of action and baserunning are usually better food for the eyes. Consequently, I am more tolerant when the chef (Farrell) doesn't quite hit the mark or when a sous-chef like Beni botches a side dish.

[cp176]

Love the baserunning talk. Me, I like it aggressive because it's fun to watch. I love to emphasize the importance of hitting and pitching because they are the meat and potatoes of winning games. But to a discriminating palate the menu needs to do better than meat and potatoes especially when hitting and pitching lead to all those interminable kabuki dances between any real action.

 

A pitching duel can be excellent baseball and sometimes I can get really wrapped up in one. But lots of action and baserunning are usually better food for the eyes. Consequently, I am more tolerant when the chef (Farrell) doesn't quite hit the mark or when a sous-chef like Beni botches a side dish.

 

I think that the majority of people who post here understand appreciate and like fast athletic players who are aggressive on the base paths. One size does not fit all though. Athletes still have to have a grasp of their limitations. They even have to be aware of the situation that they are in. There is a big difference between stupid and aggressive. No one seems to be to wound up over aggressive. It is the stupid that seems to be bothering some of us. Makes no difference whether you win or lose if you run stupidly. Being nice here I might call stupid baselining an example of poor fundamentals. I hate watching this type of baseball. I love aggressive but I hate stupid. Now, you might ask, how do I recognize stupid and I would respond that I am pretty sure that I know it when I see it. I feel sorry for people who can't.

[moonslav59]

IMO there are two factions to blame for the bad base running. First are the players. How in Hell does a player get to this point in their careers without knowing the fundamentals of the game like knowing how many outs there are or that you don't try to go from 2nd to 3rd on a ball hit in front of you?? I know we want to blame Farrell for that but it's on the players. I know that Hanley and I are a lot alike in that we both think we can run like we're 22 again. The difference between us is that I don't try to prove it and he does.

 

I know that there's sometimes a fine line between a running game and running wildly. While Farrell doesn't want to discourage taking chances he does need to reinforce the difference between a reasonable gamble and a stupid chance. If he's not trying to reinforce that he should be trying, and if he is trying to he needs to find a new way to do it because what he's doing isn't working.

 

Just like any skill or repeatable action, the more you practice- the better you do.

 

I'm not sure how much time JF spent on reinforcing fundamentals this spring or during the year, but I'm guessing it wasn't nearly enough.

 

Sure, the players should know all this stuff anyways, and some players seem to have it ingrained in their mind, body and soul, but refresher courses are needed for many.

 

I was a teacher and volunteer for many years. Every fall, we have to go through the same exact training on harassment, safety, rules and guidelines. It all seems like common sense and something that should only be needed to be told once in a lifetime, but every year someone messes up.

[moonslav59]

Love the baserunning talk. Me, I like it aggressive because it's fun to watch. I love to emphasize the importance of hitting and pitching because they are the meat and potatoes of winning games. But to a discriminating palate the menu needs to do better than meat and potatoes especially when hitting and pitching lead to all those interminable kabuki dances between any real action.

 

A pitching duel can be excellent baseball and sometimes I can get really wrapped up in one. But lots of action and baserunning are usually better food for the eyes. Consequently, I am more tolerant when the chef (Farrell) doesn't quite hit the mark or when a sous-chef like Beni botches a side dish.

 

As a boy, my first favorite player was a guy named Tommy Harper. He was a great base stealer, but he did it without having great speed. He took a 5 step lead off 1B that often rattled pitchers to death.

 

(BTW, when the Brewers traded him to Boston, at the same time my family moved from Milwaukee to Portland, Maine, I became a Sox fan.)

 

I love aggressive base running. I abhor mental mistakes on the base paths and on defense. I'm not talking over aggressiveness. I'm talking boneheadedness.

 

[moonslav59]

I think that the majority of people who post here understand appreciate and like fast athletic players who are aggressive on the base paths. One size does not fit all though. Athletes still have to have a grasp of their limitations. They even have to be aware of the situation that they are in. There is a big difference between stupid and aggressive. No one seems to be to wound up over aggressive. It is the stupid that seems to be bothering some of us. Makes no difference whether you win or lose if you run stupidly. Being nice here I might call stupid baselining an example of poor fundamentals. I hate watching this type of baseball. I love aggressive but I hate stupid. Now, you might ask, how do I recognize stupid and I would respond that I am pretty sure that I know it when I see it. I feel sorry for people who can't.

 

I just read this after posting my very similar reply.

 

I agree completely with what you said.

[cp176]

TY sir

[Kimmi]

I might disagree more on line-up choices and sticking with favorites more than he should, but I pretty much agree.

 

Do you think JF and his coaches should shoulder some portion of the blame for 9 of out 10 returning players declining in offense- some by a lot?

 

Yes, I think it is fair to wonder what is going on with the coaching staff in terms of all of the underperformances. I have questioned before what Chili Davis is doing.

[moonslav59]

Yes, I think it is fair to wonder what is going on with the coaching staff in terms of all of the underperformances. I have questioned before what Chili Davis is doing.

 

Yes, you have questioned Chili, but I think the buck stops with JF.

 

1. Lack of fundamentals.

2. Massive under performance by just about all our returning everyday players.

3. Lack of simple understanding of the rules.

4. Not maximizing the efficiency of the line-up (despite how little it really matters)

 

The pluses:

1. Maximized the effectiveness of our depleted pen.

2. Productivity of rotation despite the injuries to Price & Wright.

 

Overall, he's a great pitching coach who is clueless in other areas of the game.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, you have questioned Chili, but I think the buck stops with JF.

 

1. Lack of fundamentals.

2. Massive under performance by just about all our returning everyday players.

3. Lack of simple understanding of the rules.

4. Not maximizing the efficiency of the line-up (despite how little it really matters)

 

The pluses:

1. Maximized the effectiveness of our depleted pen.

2. Productivity of rotation despite the injuries to Price & Wright.

 

Overall, he's a great pitching coach who is clueless in other areas of the game.

 

With regard to the massive underperformance part, Farrell was also the manager the previous 4 years. How did his management of their hitting get so bad this year?

 

Seriously, though, it's a total enigma why so many guys have numbers down this year. The only things we can point to as fact are the absence of Ortiz and the failure to add a power bat to somewhat compensate for that loss.

[moonslav59]

With regard to the massive underperformance part, Farrell was also the manager the previous 4 years. How did his management of their hitting get so bad this year?

 

Seriously, though, it's a total enigma why so many guys have numbers down this year. The only things we can point to as fact are the absence of Ortiz and the failure to add a power bat to somewhat compensate for that loss.

 

Jf was rewarded for those "past years" by keeping his job, and by the way, we finished in last place a few of those "past years".

 

This team is also younger than any Sox team in recent years. Yes, that makes it harder to manange, but one should be expecting improvement as players move from 22 to 28 or 29 years old, staying somewhat even from 27-33, and maybe some decline from 31 on. We have nobody over 33, unlike teams in the past. If anything, we should have expected inclines not declines.

 

I get the loss of Papi's bat, spirit and leadership extends beyond just the numbers he put up over the last few years, but 9 out of 10 declines with more than half being serious declines? JF has to shoulder some of the balme- just as he shared in the rewards of 2013 and all those "up years" (that wasn't actually as much as people believed it was).

[Bellhorn04]

Jf was rewarded for those "past years" by keeping his job, and by the way, we finished in last place a few of those "past years".

 

This team is also younger than any Sox team in recent years. Yes, that makes it harder to manange, but one should be expecting improvement as players move from 22 to 28 or 29 years old, staying somewhat even from 27-33, and maybe some decline from 31 on. We have nobody over 33, unlike teams in the past. If anything, we should have expected inclines not declines.

 

I get the loss of Papi's bat, spirit and leadership extends beyond just the numbers he put up over the last few years, but 9 out of 10 declines with more than half being serious declines? JF has to shoulder some of the balme- just as he shared in the rewards of 2013 and all those "up years" (that wasn't actually as much as people believed it was).

 

My question is simply this - how can the manager be responsible for all the declines?

 

With Mookie Betts, we know he's being pitched to differently this year. Betts has talked about all the sliders he's seeing and how he's trying to adjust his approach.

[Bellhorn04]

With Bogaerts, it looks like injuries have seriously hampered him. Farrell tried to be patient and give him every opportunity, but now he's being benched with increasing frequency.

[moonslav59]

My question is simply this - how can the manager be responsible for all the declines?

 

With Mookie Betts, we know he's being pitched to differently this year. Betts has talked about all the sliders he's seeing and how he's trying to adjust his approach.

 

1) I said partially responsible.

2) I never said every player's decline was his fault or even partially his fault. We all expected Leon to decline and maybe HRam, Pedey and Young, but not 9 out of 10.

 

(Note" we all probably also expected Vaz to improve over his putrid 2016 numbers, so basically it's the 5 out of 5 I'm mostly speaking to.)

[moonslav59]

With Bogaerts, it looks like injuries have seriously hampered him. Farrell tried to be patient and give him every opportunity, but now he's being benched with increasing frequency.

 

Yeah, he patiently kept our weakest power hitter batting 3rd for months, even as his slump became obvious.

 

Sometimes patience isn't a virtue.

[Bellhorn04]

Yeah, he patiently kept our weakest power hitter batting 3rd for months, even as his slump became obvious.

 

Sometimes patience isn't a virtue.

 

A quick review of the facts on Bogey:

 

In 2016 he had an .802 OPS with 21 homers.

 

In 2017 he had an .826 OPS as of the end of June.

 

On July 6 he got hit by a pitch. (Which may have led to a lingering injury that's still affecting him.)

 

On July 20 he was dropped in the order.

[Slasher9]

to me it's "Exhibit A" how a HoF hitter can "protect" the lineup. apparently its not just "random"....

[Bellhorn04]

I sure would love to see Ortiz as hitting coach next year.

[moonslav59]

A quick review of the facts on Bogey:

 

In 2016 he had an .802 OPS with 21 homers.

 

In 2017 he had an .826 OPS as of the end of June.

 

On July 6 he got hit by a pitch. (Which may have led to a lingering injury that's still affecting him.)

 

On July 20 he was dropped in the order.

 

Yes, on July 20th, JF dropped the "power hitting", slumping Bogey to 6th. (He should never have been batting 3rfd to begin with- second or even 1st was best.)

 

He took longer to drop Moreland from the 4/5 slot.

 

He put Holt leading off 5 times and second (the spoit to put your best hitter) 3 times. At what point was Holt ever hitting well?

 

I'm not putting all the blame on JF for 9 of 10 guys declining, but if he is given credit when players do well, he should take some of the blame when just about everyone declines, except the guy who had no where to decline to (Vaz).

 

JF is an excellent pitching coach, and it shows when he manages. I have very little criticism for the way he has handled our staff.

 

I don't feel he has a clue about hitting, fielding and base running nor the rules of the game. It shows.

[moonslav59]

to me it's "Exhibit A" how a HoF hitter can "protect" the lineup. apparently its not just "random"....

 

I never knew a batter hitting 3rd or 4th "protected" 9 of 10 players spread from the 1 to 9 slot.

[Slasher9]

I never knew a batter hitting 3rd or 4th "protected" 9 of 10 players spread from the 1 to 9 slot.

 

me neither. but it sure looks that way.

[moonslav59]

me neither. but it sure looks that way.

 

Then, where was the "protection" in 2014, when just about everyone declined that year?

 

Papi still had 35 Hrs and an OPS over .870, yet we saw this...

 

(Players listed in order by most PAs in 2013)

 

2013>2014

.787 Pedey .712

.842 Naps .789

.831 Nava .706

.801 SVic .685

.777 Drew .583

.696 Middy .522

.771 Gomes .683

.885 Carp .599

 

8 out of 8 of our top returning players by PAs, declined from 2013 to 2014 while Papi was still mashing.

 

Random?

 

 

[Slasher9]

.870 OPS cant pull up the entire lineup.

Plus, alot of those numbers from 2013 were so far and above the back of the players card. 2013 was the enigma. see: boston marathon bombing, Boston Strong, this is our bleeping cits, 617.....

[moonslav59]

.870 OPS cant pull up the entire lineup.

Plus, alot of those numbers from 2013 were so far and above the back of the players card. 2013 was the enigma. see: boston marathon bombing, Boston Strong, this is our bleeping cits, 617.....

 

Look at 2012 to 2013 and you'll see 2013 was not that much of an outlier.

 

2013 was 2014 was as freakish as 2016 to 2017.

[oldtimer]

Then, where was the "protection" in 2014, when just about everyone declined that year?

 

Papi still had 35 Hrs and an OPS over .870, yet we saw this...

 

(Players listed in order by most PAs in 2013)

 

2013>2014

.787 Pedey .712

.842 Naps .789

.831 Nava .706

.801 SVic .685

.777 Drew .583

.696 Middy .522

.771 Gomes .683

.885 Carp .599

 

8 out of 8 of our top returning players by PAs, declined from 2013 to 2014 while Papi was still mashing.

 

Random?

 

 

 

If you tried to find a correlation factor using Crystal ball, I think it would be a futile exercise. I would look for other reasons.

[moonslav59]

If you tried to find a correlation factor using Crystal ball, I think it would be a futile exercise. I would look for other reasons.

 

Philosophically, I don't believe "protection" is a significant factor in any circumstance.

 

I provided the 2013 to 2014 numbers to ask those who feel it is a significant to explain why it can happen with Papi of without Papi. Plus, I've never heard any argument that "protection" is extended to all 8 other hitters in a line-up.

 

I get the team spirit and team leadership aspect of the game and Papi's influence extending beyond line-up protection, but again, this would not explain 2014's numbers' drop.

[Bellhorn04]

Philosophically, I don't believe "protection" is a significant factor in any circumstance.

 

I provided the 2013 to 2014 numbers to ask those who feel it is a significant to explain why it can happen with Papi of without Papi. Plus, I've never heard any argument that "protection" is extended to all 8 other hitters in a line-up.

 

I get the team spirit and team leadership aspect of the game and Papi's influence extending beyond line-up protection, but again, this would not explain 2014's numbers' drop.

 

2014 was a Letdown Year after winning it all.

2016 was a Special Year because it was Papi's final season.

 

I'm joking...I don't really think the explanations are that simple.

[Maxbialystock]

Yeah, he patiently kept our weakest power hitter batting 3rd for months, even as his slump became obvious.

 

Sometimes patience isn't a virtue.

 

Ahem. I believe you are the one who has documented that our top 8 regulars this year are not only worse (except for Vazquez) than last year but somehow are all gravitating toward a mean OPS of about .750. Right now our top 8 in at bats and total bases are Betts, Bogaerts, Beni, Moreland, HanRam, Vazquez, Pedroia, and JBJ. Of those 8, the highest is .791 and the lowest is .722. That's a difference but not an overwhelming one.

 

Bogaerts OPS in April was .731, in May .949, June .763. On this team, not all that shabby for #3 hitter.

 

As for power, we have no power hitters this year. We are dead last in the AL in dingers and 28th in MLB. Ortiz was a power hitter, but nobody on this team is this year.

 

Given the distinct absence of power which no doubt has affected the run-producing middle of our batting order, my guess is that putting some speed in there wasn't all bad. More to the point, given all those guys gathered around that mean, I really don't care about those lineups.

 

Last year HanRam had a great year, now clearly because Ortiz was in the lineup, and drove in 111 runs. Good. Solid. But batting leadoff the entire season Betts drove in 113 and still scored the most runs, 122, on the team. Oh, and they scored 100 more runs than anyone else in the AL.