2017 Rotation Discussion

[Jasonbay44]

I think DD jumped the gun signing Moreland, not expecting EE to end up signing the contract that he signed. It was a big miscalculation.

 

EE has actually been worse than Moreland so far this year. I'd obviously rather have EE but as it stands now I'm not sure how much of a help he'd be.

[sk7326]

Even if they are a middle of the pack offense,which currently they are bottom of the pack, DD should have made some moves to keep the offense from falling from the top of the pack to the middle.

 

They are 15th in the bigs in runs scored - but somehow 3rd in OBP and tops in lowest K-rate. I am pretty sure there were 35 games like this a year ago. There is more reason to expect improvement than regression (or even status quo).

[moonslav59]

I think it was a stretch.

 

Sale has been a huge addition, but instead of helping to make up for the loss of Papi, he's been used to make up for the loss of Price & Wright.

 

Thornburg was supposed to make up for losing Uehara and Ziegler, at least until C Smith returned.

 

I'm not happy with DD's plan, but I still maintain it was not far-fetched to think this team, on paper, was going to be as strong, if not stronger, than last year's team.

[moonslav59]

They are 15th in the bigs in runs scored - but somehow 3rd in OBP and tops in lowest K-rate. I am pretty sure there were 35 games like this a year ago. There is more reason to expect improvement than regression (or even status quo).

 

Factor in park advantages, and 15th is more like 20th.

[sk7326]

Factor in park advantages, and 15th is more like 20th.

 

Fair enough - but again, the building blocks of runs - baserunners, solid contact ... all of that is still there. I wish the team were winning more games - but given how rough the start has been (injuries, luck) ... I am betting the over still

[a700hitter]

EE has actually been worse than Moreland so far this year. I'd obviously rather have EE but as it stands now I'm not sure how much of a help he'd be.

SSS. There is no comparison between those players.

[a700hitter]

They are 15th in the bigs in runs scored - but somehow 3rd in OBP and tops in lowest K-rate. I am pretty sure there were 35 games like this a year ago. There is more reason to expect improvement than regression (or even status quo).

The question is will it improve enough, and there is no comparison to last years offense. No one was obtained to fill the hole, and we are just kidding ourselves if we think that some additional ABs from AB will address it adequately -- not even close.

[SoxHop]

EE has actually been worse than Moreland so far this year. I'd obviously rather have EE but as it stands now I'm not sure how much of a help he'd be.

 

Napoli was another possibility. And he has been horrific back in TX.

[Jack Flap]

Napoli was another possibility. And he has been horrific back in TX.

 

You can throw in Bautista, Beltran, Holliday....as far as I can tell, Moreland has better numbers thus far than almost any of the alternatives that were floated. Presumably that will change at some point, but if we're looking at what this team has done thus far, none of those guys would have made us any better relative to Moreland.

 

I can only imagine the outrage if Dombrowski had given 34-year-old Encarnacion a multiyear deal and forfeited a 1st round pick just for him to have a .694 OPS at this point in the season.

[harmony]

You can throw in Bautista, Beltran, Holliday....as far as I can tell, Moreland has better numbers thus far than almost any of the alternatives that were floated. Presumably that will change at some point, but if we're looking at what this team has done thus far, none of those guys would have made us any better relative to Moreland.

 

I can only imagine the outrage if Dombrowski had given 34-year-old Encarnacion a multiyear deal and forfeited a 1st round pick just for him to have a .694 OPS at this point in the season.

Matt Holliday has posted 0.7 bWAR with an OPS+ of 146 in 32 games while Mitch Moreland has posted 0.5 bWAR with an OPS+ of 110 in 37 games.

[Jack Flap]

Yeah, nevermind about Holliday...he actually has much better numbers this year than I realized. So that's one that (based on early results) we may have whiffed on, though as I recall he wasn't exactly a guy most Sox fans were clamoring for.

[a700hitter]

Yeah, nevermind about Holliday...he actually has much better numbers this year than I realized. So that's one that (based on early results) we may have whiffed on, though as I recall he wasn't exactly a guy most Sox fans were clamoring for.

Whether Red Sox fans clamored for him doesn't make the whiff any less glaring. Not getting Holliday imo was a function of the latest group think notion that it is better to avoid having a dedicated DH and to rotate into the DH your lesser offensive players who can play other positions. Yes, that works sometimes if you have a very strong offensive club where everyone can play defense too. It doesn't work for teams like ours. Moreland is not a strong offensive player that needs to be in the lineup every day. Holliday is strictly a DH for the Yankees this season, and DD didn't want a dedicated DH. That is the latest group think. Such great innovation.

[moonslav59]

I would not have signed Holliday, although he's off to a good start.

 

I liked Beltran, but I think staying under the luxury limit will end up being a critical and good choice.

 

Not signing Moreland and getting someone better was an idea, but Moreland has done well, so It's hard for me to fault DD on this one.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but let's wait a while before we get too worked up.

[a700hitter]

I would not have signed Holliday, although he's off to a good start.

 

I liked Beltran, but I think staying under the luxury limit will end up being a critical and good choice.

 

Not signing Moreland and getting someone better was an idea, but Moreland has done well, so It's hard for me to fault DD on this one.

 

Hindsight is 20/20, but let's wait a while before we get too worked up.

It is not 20/20 on my part. I wanted to trade Moreland in the offseason as EE remained unsigned throughout most of the winter. I was told that we could not trade a guy that we just signed as a FA.

[Maxbialystock]

Goodness knows I am no DD fan, but I honestly thought we had a good lineup for this year. HanRam really isn't replacing Ortiz, Moreland is because he is new to the lineup.

 

So how make up that deficit? Benintendi in LF helps. So, I thought, would be the case with Pablo at 3B, but he has been worse than our group last year and on the DL, which brought in a multitude of sins. I'm guessing that last year overall our thirdbasemen were ranked in the bottom third, but this year they are probably dead last. JBJ is way down from last year. Pedroia is down.

 

And where I miscalculated is that Ortiz was both a great rbi guy and great rbi guy when you really need one.

[Emp9]

SSS. There is no comparison between those players.

 

I agree that EE is the better hitter and more likely to have his usual solid numbers when all is said and done. I also agree that it's a SSS. But who's fault is that? It's the 2017 season's fault being only 6 weeks old. I think there's some truth to the point made that many of these other, better hitters, other than Moreland wouldn't have help us that much either. It's a fair argument.

[S5Dewey]

.

 

And where I miscalculated is that Ortiz was both a great rbi guy and great rbi guy when you really need one.

 

Don't you even read these threads? Don't you know that RBI's are completely a function of coincidence?

 

[moonslav59]

It is not 20/20 on my part. I wanted to trade Moreland in the offseason as EE remained unsigned throughout most of the winter. I was told that we could not trade a guy that we just signed as a FA.

 

Once I saw what EE got, that made a lot of sense, however I'm not sure who would have paid Moreland $5.5M.

 

Also, the luxury tax limit will be tight in upcoming years as EE ages and likely declines. His signing might have been great for this year, but if it meant we couldn't keep Bogey or Betts later, then what?

 

Weighing all factors, I'd rather have EE than Moreland, but I'd be worried about future finances even more than I am now (i.e "the cliff").

[Maxbialystock]

who the hell is EE?

[Station 13]

who the hell is EE?

 

He is also known as E5.

[moonslav59]

who the hell is EE?

 

Edwin Encarnacion

[oldtimer]

Once I saw what EE got, that made a lot of sense, however I'm not sure who would have paid Moreland $5.5M.

 

Also, the luxury tax limit will be tight in upcoming years as EE ages and likely declines. His signing might have been great for this year, but if it meant we couldn't keep Bogey or Betts later, then what?

 

Weighing all factors, I'd rather have EE than Moreland, but I'd be worried about future finances even more than I am now (i.e "the cliff").

 

I thought this thread was about the rotation. It appears to been hijacked to talk about potential hitters for the Red Sox. We have three solid starters with a hope that Price can come back and be the 4th. Who the 5th starter will be is illusive at this point. Our bull pen has been weak, with Barnes and Hembree having very poor appearances of late.

[moonslav59]

I thought this thread was about the rotation. It appears to been hijacked to talk about potential hitters for the Red Sox. We have three solid starters with a hope that Price can come back and be the 4th. Who the 5th starter will be is illusive at this point. Our bull pen has been weak, with Barnes and Hembree having very poor appearances of late.

 

I think the argument became upgrading the rotation was a way to minimize the loss of Papi and was supposed to help lessen the need to find a Papi replacement.

 

It is related.

[Emp9]

I thought this thread was about the rotation. It appears to been hijacked to talk about potential hitters for the Red Sox. We have three solid starters with a hope that Price can come back and be the 4th. Who the 5th starter will be is illusive at this point. Our bull pen has been weak, with Barnes and Hembree having very poor appearances of late.

 

We can talk about Brian Johnson if you really want to. Ok. You start.

[a700hitter]

Goodness knows I am no DD fan, but I honestly thought we had a good lineup for this year. HanRam really isn't replacing Ortiz, Moreland is because he is new to the lineup.

 

So how make up that deficit? Benintendi in LF helps. So, I thought, would be the case with Pablo at 3B, but he has been worse than our group last year and on the DL, which brought in a multitude of sins. I'm guessing that last year overall our thirdbasemen were ranked in the bottom third, but this year they are probably dead last. JBJ is way down from last year. Pedroia is down.

 

And where I miscalculated is that Ortiz was both a great rbi guy and great rbi guy when you really need one.

We had HanRam while we had Ortiz, so he is not a replacement. The replacement is Moreland and extra ab's for AB. That is not a good replacement imo. I think people really underestimated what losing Ortiz from the lineup would mean. Also, Betts had an MVP quality season last year. Are we supposed to expect that every season from him? Were we to expect Leon to hit .310 again? Did we expect Young to put up a .999 OPS against LHP again this year? Even if all these things happened again, where is the excess capacity to make up for Ortiz? Moreland and more AB abs? I'm not buying that.

[Jasonbay44]

To be fair, I don't really remember anyone being very excited about the Moreland signing. That signing was the definition of a "meh" move.

[SoxHop]

To be fair, I don't really remember anyone being very excited about the Moreland signing. That signing was the definition of a "meh" move.

 

I watched Moreland down here in TX for a long time.

 

He's aweful. He's great two times a year, and then just dissapears......

 

He wasn't the answer for a big stick in the lineup.

[a700hitter]

I watched Moreland down here in TX for a long time.

 

He's aweful. He's great two times a year, and then just dissapears......

 

He wasn't the answer for a big stick in the lineup.

After his hot streak would end, he would eventually get benched. It was the same script each year.

[Kimmi]

The question is will it improve enough, and there is no comparison to last years offense. No one was obtained to fill the hole, and we are just kidding ourselves if we think that some additional ABs from AB will address it adequately -- not even close.

 

The offense was not meant to be as good as it was last year. That's where the improvement in pitching comes in. (I keep hearing someone say, 'It's the pitching, stupid!')

 

Also, we led the league by over 100 runs last year. Over 100! That's a lot. Even with the loss of Papi, the offense should be very good.

 

I could see your point about not addressing the loss of Papi if our offense was merely 10 or 20 runs better than the next. And if Dombrowski did not improve the starting pitching significantly. But neither of those are the case.

[Kimmi]

You can throw in Bautista, Beltran, Holliday....as far as I can tell, Moreland has better numbers thus far than almost any of the alternatives that were floated. Presumably that will change at some point, but if we're looking at what this team has done thus far, none of those guys would have made us any better relative to Moreland.

 

I can only imagine the outrage if Dombrowski had given 34-year-old Encarnacion a multiyear deal and forfeited a 1st round pick just for him to have a .694 OPS at this point in the season.

 

You speak the truth.