Jose Bautista

[notin]

No way - and he has a QO on him iirc. If you want to get a past prime bat - offer the Rox a sack of potatoes for Carlos Gonzalez who only has a year attached to him.

 

The Rockies are adding players, not subtracting. So Gonzalez, whom they turned down offers for at the deadline last season, will probably cost a lot more than one late first round pick.

 

Plus he's not the same hitter away from Coors...

[notin]

only if we flip moreland out. although that would be DD admitting he made a mistake on moreland to begin with. so i dont see this happening at all.

 

Why would they flip Moreland (which they can't do without his permission until mid-June anyway)? Put Moreland on the bench and move Hernandez to Pawtucket.

 

As for the "admitting a mistake", not remotely true. GMs make moves based on changing circumstances all the time. That's how Dombrowski signed Fielder. Heck thats how Epstein signed Adrian Beltre. The mistake would be NOT signing someone like Moreland and hoping/waiting to get Bautista in the Nelson Cruz deal with no fallback option in place.

 

Maybe the market for Bautista will pick up. But if it doesn't, I would expect Dombrowski to see if he can get a Nelson Cruz type deal in place....

[cp176]

I don't think that Bautista is the answer at all but the number of runs they scored last year doesn't paint the whole picture. When you score the runs matters quite a bit as well. You lose Shaw and Papi, you lose 50 + hr's and how many rbi's? I get the fact that we have strengthened the pitching. I hope it is enough.

[moonslav59]

I don't think that Bautista is the answer at all but the number of runs they scored last year doesn't paint the whole picture. When you score the runs matters quite a bit as well. You lose Shaw and Papi, you lose 50 + hr's and how many rbi's? I get the fact that we have strengthened the pitching. I hope it is enough.

 

Losing Shaw should allow for us to gain on offense.

 

Beni all year.

 

Young all year.

 

Leon all year.

 

Moreland added for RHPs.

 

I'm not pretending that all of this will make up for the loss of Papi, but with other improvements made to this team, I don't think we need to look for all Papi's numbers to be replaced.

 

If I had to bet, I'd say we will score withing 50 runs of last year's team. I'd even bet on scoring the same over finishing 100 runs lower.

[notin]

I don't think that Bautista is the answer at all but the number of runs they scored last year doesn't paint the whole picture. When you score the runs matters quite a bit as well. You lose Shaw and Papi, you lose 50 + hr's and how many rbi's? I get the fact that we have strengthened the pitching. I hope it is enough.

 

I'd think he's a pretty good answer if he can be had on a Nelson Cruz type deal. ..

[oldtimer]

Losing Shaw should allow for us to gain on offense.

 

Beni all year.

 

Young all year.

 

Leon all year.

 

Moreland added for RHPs.

 

I'm not pretending that all of this will make up for the loss of Papi, but with other improvements made to this team, I don't think we need to look for all Papi's numbers to be replaced.

 

If I had to bet, I'd say we will score withing 50 runs of last year's team. I'd even bet on scoring the same over finishing 100 runs lower.

 

I'm not sure I would count Leon all year as a plus. He certainly fell way off from his hot streak. Also, are you counting on Sandoval as a plus before he shows he can do something good?

[moonslav59]

I'm not sure I would count Leon all year as a plus. He certainly fell way off from his hot streak. Also, are you counting on Sandoval as a plus before he shows he can do something good?

 

Well, if he sucks, Swihart should be better, but seriously, I think Leon and Vaz will be a huge upgrade over this:

 

.585 Vaz (184 PAs)

.468 Hanigan (113)

.500 Holaday (35)

 

These 332 PAs were more than Leon's 283 PAs at an .845 OPS.

 

Think of it this way, if Leon can give us .680 at 400 PAs, and Vaz can give us .650 at 200 PAs, our catcher OPS will be .670, will be an improvement on 2016's .665 total catcher OPS.

 

Maybe they won't do that, but I certainly think they could. Anything from Swihart should up those numbers.

 

[cp176]

Losing Shaw should allow for us to gain on offense.

 

Beni all year.

 

Young all year.

 

Leon all year.

 

Moreland added for RHPs.

 

I'm not pretending that all of this will make up for the loss of Papi, but with other improvements made to this team, I don't think we need to look for all Papi's numbers to be replaced.

 

If I had to bet, I'd say we will score withing 50 runs of last year's team. I'd even bet on scoring the same over finishing 100 runs lower.

 

 

Hope you are right. if you were trying to sell me something, with this reasoning I would not buy it though. obviously I feel a little differently than most do about Shaw. You might certainly cut into the production that both Papi and Shaw gave us but I would be beyond pleased and surprised if they match it.

[cp176]

I'd think he's a pretty good answer if he can be had on a Nelson Cruz type deal. ..

 

 

I don't think that they are planning to go in this direction but I think that it would be worth a try.

[Kimmi]

http://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/stat/batting

 

This team could get 100 less runs without Papi and they'd still be a top 5 offensive team. The problem with this team is the pitching, not the offense.

 

^^This. Offense is not a concern to me, especially in light of the improvement in pitching.

[Kimmi]

I don't think that Bautista is the answer at all but the number of runs they scored last year doesn't paint the whole picture. When you score the runs matters quite a bit as well. You lose Shaw and Papi, you lose 50 + hr's and how many rbi's? I get the fact that we have strengthened the pitching. I hope it is enough.

 

Except, it really doesn't. Not in terms of assessing how good the offense is.

 

Losing Papi's offense hurts. But the Sox will simply go from being the best offense in the league by 100 runs to merely being one of the best offenses in the league. Or, they could still be the best offense in the league, but only by 20 runs rather than 100.

[moonslav59]

Hope you are right. if you were trying to sell me something, with this reasoning I would not buy it though. obviously I feel a little differently than most do about Shaw. You might certainly cut into the production that both Papi and Shaw gave us but I would be beyond pleased and surprised if they match it.

 

Shaw did give us some early season production, especially with the RBIs, but I really didn't expect it to continue going forward.

[cp176]

Shaw did give us some early season production, especially with the RBIs, but I really didn't expect it to continue going forward.

 

 

but it just as easily might.

[cp176]

Except, it really doesn't. Not in terms of assessing how good the offense is.

 

Losing Papi's offense hurts. But the Sox will simply go from being the best offense in the league by 100 runs to merely being one of the best offenses in the league. Or, they could still be the best offense in the league, but only by 20 runs rather than 100.

 

taking that production out of the lineup is a concern with respect to our offense to me.

[Spudboy]

taking that production out of the lineup is a concern with respect to our offense to me.

 

It should concern any Sox fan.

[moonslav59]

but it just as easily might.

 

Yes, and I was a bit surprised we traded away Pablo's best back-up without signing a corner IF'er that can play 3B too, but I had just lost faith in him. I know I could have been wrong.

 

[moonslav59]

taking that production out of the lineup is a concern with respect to our offense to me.

 

Well, if the real Shaw was more like the second half Shaw, then we did well by getting him out of the line-up and getting Thornburg for him. Word has it, that's who Milwaukeee wanted.

[cp176]

Well, if the real Shaw was more like the second half Shaw, then we did well by getting him out of the line-up and getting Thornburg for him. Word has it, that's who Milwaukeee wanted.

 

I hope it works out for both of them. I hope that the Mooreland pickup helps out which I think it should. Sandoval becomes a very important player all of a sudden. He is still a young man. We shall see. Obviously I have a lot of faith in our GM and his win now and for the foreseeable future (3-5) for me. He has added a number of experienced young veterans just entering their prime years.

[Kimmi]

taking that production out of the lineup is a concern with respect to our offense to me.

 

Not if that production is made up elsewhere.

 

The offense is an area of the team where we could afford to take a little hit, and still be very, very, good.

[Kimmi]

It should concern any Sox fan.

 

No, what should concern any Sox fan is what Dombrowski has done to our farm system.

[Bellhorn04]

No, what should concern any Sox fan is what Dombrowski has done to our farm system.

 

I'm really not concerned about it. If we do fall off the cliff after 3 years, so be it. We'll just have to build from the bottom up again. We just went through back-to-back last place finishes and we survived.

[Orange Juiced]

No, what should concern any Sox fan is what Dombrowski has done to our farm system.

 

He has traded quite a few prospects for:

 

- Chris Sale, one of the best SP in all of baseball, who is 27 years old and has 3 years left on a GREAT contract;

 

- Craig Kimbrel, one of the best closers in this HISTORY of baseball, who is 28 years old;

 

- Tyler Thornburg, one of the best 7th-8th inning guys in baseball last year, who is 28 years old;

 

- Drew Pomeranz, an all-star starting pitcher last year.

 

Yes they gave up a lot of prospect talent, and the Sox' system is no longer elite. But it still has some good players in it - Devers, Groome, Travis, Dalbec, and maybe Ball (who seems to be improving). So it's not totally gutted.

[S5Dewey]

No, what should concern any Sox fan is what Dombrowski has done to our farm system.

 

I hear what you're saying but at the same time I'm not one to go out and 'borrow trouble'. We have quality players locked up for three or more years so it's not imperative that we have ML ready players in AAA. We now have 3+ years to replenish our farm system, at which time we're looking at Groome, etc. being ready to make the jump to Fenway.

 

There's a real chance that by 2022 the Red Sox won't be as good as they look right now but given the changes that MLB is making that may become a cycle in MLB - that the strong teams become weaker as the weaker teams get stronger and so ad infinitum. For now I'm willing to be on the leading edge of that cycle. It's more fun than being on the trailing edge.

 

There's also always the argument to be considered also that the teams with money will always find a way to have an advantage and as long as JH is driving the bus I don't see the Red Sox as ever being a team without the money.

 

So in a nushell, am I "concerned" Sure, a little. But let's see how things shake out before we start wringing our hands.

[cp176]

Not if that production is made up elsewhere.

 

The offense is an area of the team where we could afford to take a little hit, and still be very, very, good.

 

I believe this and have. if Sandoval comes back healthy and well, we might be better offensively ultimately and there is no question that from a front line pitching perspective we really are in very good shape. I'm pretty sure that some of my nervous feeling about the offense comes from taking Papi out of the middle of that lineup. I really have gotten used to having him there. I think that we will all miss him but the Mooreland pickup could turn out to be a really good one.

[Dojji]

No, what should concern any Sox fan is what Dombrowski has done to our farm system.

 

I am concerned. But not enough to fail to recognize that DD did what he did for a very good reason and that it was probably the right thing to do. Basically he hit fast forward on the timetable we'd had for several of our prospects and replaced them with young, cost controlled, skilled players instead. He did this for a very good reason, because the team was ready to compete now and there was no reason not to pull out all the stops and give us the best possible chance to compete for a title.

 

If DD had gone after aging stars or guys with limited control left, I'd be concerned about the price he paid, but what he's actually done is line up a 3 year playoff window during which this team is going to be at its maximum potential competitiveness. Instead of perennial contention and creating a rolling peak with a few guys peaking ay any given time, as Theo liked to try to do in his later years here, DD's lining up a max peak team, the way Theo did in 04 and the way Theo did again for the Cubs in 2016. Theo seems to agree that that's a good ploy to play when you're a new GM coming into a market and trying to make an impression.

 

We'll pay for it on the back end, and DD is probably full aware of that, just like Theo was in 04 (05 and 06 were not particularly fun, then the farm system recovered and delivered us a huge win in 07) and probably is with this Cubs team. but I'll take it if it gets us another banner, even if it means some poor years in 2021 and beyond.

[Bellhorn04]

There's a real chance that by 2022 the Red Sox won't be as good as they look right now but given the changes that MLB is making that may become a cycle in MLB - that the strong teams become weaker as the weaker teams get stronger and so ad infinitum. For now I'm willing to be on the leading edge of that cycle. It's more fun than being on the trailing edge.

 

There's also always the argument to be considered also that the teams with money will always find a way to have an advantage and as long as JH is driving the bus I don't see the Red Sox as ever being a team without the money.

 

These are my exact thoughts.

[Kimmi]

I'm really not concerned about it. If we do fall off the cliff after 3 years, so be it. We'll just have to build from the bottom up again. We just went through back-to-back last place finishes and we survived.

 

Back to back last place finishes that really should not have been. In both of those years, our team should have contended, but did not due more to fluky underperformances, not due to the talent of the team that was assembled. There's a difference between that and being in a situation that the Cubs were in when Theo took over and had to rebuild from the ground up.

 

No one is concerned about falling off the cliff in 3 years because it's too far away. We'll be hating it though if we go into 3 seasons knowing up front that our team has NO chance of contending because we're rebuilding.

 

The goal is to be able to rebuild, or rather replenish, while remaining competitive. You don't do that by gutting the farm.

[Bellhorn04]

No one is concerned about falling off the cliff in 3 years because it's too far away. We'll be hating it though if we go into 3 seasons knowing up front that our team has NO chance of contending because we're rebuilding.

 

 

Do like me, recite 'The Serenity Prayer' and the song 'Forget Domani' and be happy.

[Kimmi]

He has traded quite a few prospects for:

 

- Chris Sale, one of the best SP in all of baseball, who is 27 years old and has 3 years left on a GREAT contract;

 

- Craig Kimbrel, one of the best closers in this HISTORY of baseball, who is 28 years old;

 

- Tyler Thornburg, one of the best 7th-8th inning guys in baseball last year, who is 28 years old;

 

- Drew Pomeranz, an all-star starting pitcher last year.

 

Yes they gave up a lot of prospect talent, and the Sox' system is no longer elite. But it still has some good players in it - Devers, Groome, Travis, Dalbec, and maybe Ball (who seems to be improving). So it's not totally gutted.

 

I am not at all disappointed with the players that Dombrowski got in return. I am thrilled with the short term outlook of our team. The next few years should be very exciting for us.

 

I agree that our farm is not completely gutted, but it did take a huge hit. Dombrowski may surprise me and replenish the farm over the next few years. I certainly hope so.

[Kimmi]

I hear what you're saying but at the same time I'm not one to go out and 'borrow trouble'. We have quality players locked up for three or more years so it's not imperative that we have ML ready players in AAA. We now have 3+ years to replenish our farm system, at which time we're looking at Groome, etc. being ready to make the jump to Fenway.

 

There's a real chance that by 2022 the Red Sox won't be as good as they look right now but given the changes that MLB is making that may become a cycle in MLB - that the strong teams become weaker as the weaker teams get stronger and so ad infinitum. For now I'm willing to be on the leading edge of that cycle. It's more fun than being on the trailing edge.

 

There's also always the argument to be considered also that the teams with money will always find a way to have an advantage and as long as JH is driving the bus I don't see the Red Sox as ever being a team without the money.

 

So in a nushell, am I "concerned" Sure, a little. But let's see how things shake out before we start wringing our hands.

 

IMO, the changes that are being made in MLB, along with the ever escalating costs of free agents, make the value of a strong farm system that much more important.

 

I know it sounds like it, but I'm not at the point of wringing my hands. I'm just voicing my concerns, which have been my concerns about Dombrowski since he took over.

 

There's a good chance that by 3 years, our farm system will be very strong.

 

I do not want to be the team that George's Yankees were, just because we have the money.

 

I get so much more enjoyment/satisfaction out of watching home grown players play than I do from 'superstar' studs that were acquired elsewhere.