Lineup Discussions

[sk7326]

Doubt it.

 

I say he should start the new season back in Portland to develop and refine basic tools and skills.

 

Then when he looks ready ( laugh ), off to Pawtucket where he should stay for most if not all the remainder of the season so he can start to get a a diet of AAAA breaking balls.

 

Maybe a September call-up.

 

This kid is even less developed than Castillo. He is young. Train and develop him as you would another player his age.

 

I am not sure how much time he spends in Pawtucket (which, like most AAA teams, is a taxi squad). But I expect back to either AA or AAA. The swing and miss has to be fixed. But the native talent is remarkable and the on-base skills at the lower levels were there. He is just a kid who had not played a ton of baseball - it will catch up eventually.

[Kimmi]

Doubt it.

 

I say he should start the new season back in Portland to develop and refine basic tools and skills.

 

Then when he looks ready ( laugh ), off to Pawtucket where he should stay for most if not all the remainder of the season so he can start to get a a diet of AAAA breaking balls.

 

Maybe a September call-up.

 

This kid is even less developed than Castillo. He is young. Train and develop him as you would another player his age.

 

That's quite possible as well. I can't really disagree with anyone who thinks he'll be in the minors most or all of next season.

 

It begs the question, though, of how the FO felt he was ready enough this year to give him a shot.

[S5Dewey]

That's quite possible as well. I can't really disagree with anyone who thinks he'll be in the minors most or all of next season.

 

It begs the question, though, of how the FO felt he was ready enough this year to give him a shot.

 

I'd refer to it as The Benintendi Effect. They saw it work once and believed it would always work.

[Eddy Ballgame]

I'd refer to it as The Benintendi Effect. They saw it work once and believed it would always work.

 

I believe it was a combination of not getting much production at 3rd and wanting to give him a small taste of the big leagues, which they like to do with top young players.

 

It's kind of like how every off season they take about 5 ot 6 prospects and make them live in Boston and go to class every day, where they teach them about handling the "life."

[Spudboy]

That's quite possible as well. I can't really disagree with anyone who thinks he'll be in the minors most or all of next season.

 

It begs the question, though, of how the FO felt he was ready enough this year to give him a shot.

 

Thank you for not calling me a racist.

 

I knew when I posted that comment that someone would ask about how all the experts evaluated him and came to another conclusion.

 

People make mistakes and companies can become caught up in their own glory and hype.

 

I think that he was brought up out of perceived need ( 3rd base under performance ).

 

How the guys that should know these things missed the fact that he may not know what pitch to expect on any count, may not recognize pitches, may not know how to foul balls off to stay at bat, and run the bases is a question for them, not me.

[Spudboy]

I'd refer to it as The Benintendi Effect. They saw it work once and believed it would always work.

 

That's not far from what happened, most likely.

[oldtimer]

Thank you for not calling me a racist.

 

I knew when I posted that comment that someone would ask about how all the experts evaluated him and came to another conclusion.

 

People make mistakes and companies can become caught up in their own glory and hype.

 

I think that he was brought up out of perceived need ( 3rd base under performance ).

 

How the guys that should know these things missed the fact that he may not know what pitch to expect on any count, may not recognize pitches, may not know how to foul balls off to stay at bat, and run the bases is a question for them, not me.

 

Your discussion begs the question. If not Moncada at 3rd for most or all of next season, who do we use? I have stressed being patient with Shaw as he gives us good defense and has 1st base utility use. The problem is Shaw's hitting has not come along. He is young and may hit better but the signs haven't been good during the second half. I don't really believe our other alternatives currently on the team look too positive. I would like Hernandez to be considered as our new infield utility guy (including 3rd) but not as our first string 3rd baseman. Will we instead look for a better option in the FA or trade market and trade our other guys? One of the key issues facing the Sox for next year.

[Spudboy]

Your discussion begs the question. If not Moncada at 3rd for most or all of next season, who do we use? I have stressed being patient with Shaw as he gives us good defense and has 1st base utility use. The problem is Shaw's hitting has not come along. He is young and may hit better but the signs haven't been good during the second half. I don't really believe our other alternatives currently on the team look too positive. I would like Hernandez to be considered as our new infield utility guy (including 3rd) but not as our first string 3rd baseman. Will we instead look for a better option in the FA or trade market and trade our other guys? One of the key issues facing the Sox for next year.

 

Obviously not Moncada unless he somehow miraculously learns how to hit and play at an MLB ready level in 12 or so games in Arizona this winter.

 

The 3rd base question is unfortunately intertwined with the 1st base and DH questions for 2017 in my view.

 

I have no faith in the $95. mil tub of goo. But I bet he gets the first shot at"earning" the position.

 

Oye.

[Dojji]

Your discussion begs the question. If not Moncada at 3rd for most or all of next season, who do we use? I have stressed being patient with Shaw as he gives us good defense and has 1st base utility use. The problem is Shaw's hitting has not come along. He is young and may hit better but the signs haven't been good during the second half. I don't really believe our other alternatives currently on the team look too positive. I would like Hernandez to be considered as our new infield utility guy (including 3rd) but not as our first string 3rd baseman. Will we instead look for a better option in the FA or trade market and trade our other guys? One of the key issues facing the Sox for next year.

 

I don't see any particular issue with giving Shaw another chance next year. Lest we forget, he's a 2.7 overall bWAR player this year -- that's not only not bad, it's bloody above average. The package is good here. Not mediocre, not OK, not "Yes, however." GOOD. Yeah, he teased us with that super streak he went on in the early months, and then settled to earth a bit, but the overall package is still very satisfactory for a third baseman.

 

Let's not forget Shaw was not a big offensive prospect out of the minors, our expectations in April and May before the league had really seen him were simply too high. Just because a guy doesn't hit like an All-Star doesn't mean he's useless. In fact he's almost exactly where I predicted and expected he would be at the end of the season. And I do think Shaw will hit better in the future with more big league experience under his belt. He's going to be on the roster regardless, either starting or benching, so in the absence of any other incumbent worth naming (Flablo is definitely not the established incumbent at this time) there is no real reason not to give him a chance.

Edited September 23, 2016 by Dojji

[sk7326]

That's quite possible as well. I can't really disagree with anyone who thinks he'll be in the minors most or all of next season.

 

It begs the question, though, of how the FO felt he was ready enough this year to give him a shot.

 

i think they wondered whether his athleticism could transcend the holes - and since 3B was not actually a desperate need, they could always unplug it. nobody got hurt.

[moonslav59]

Shaw's numbers over his two prior years before coming to the bigs were not impressive. He had a nice stretch last year and started out well this year. His WAR is largely fulled by his defense, which is decent (especially at 1B), but perhaps is "showing" better than he really is. I think it's totally reasonable to not expect a 1.8 WAR (fangraphs) again next year. His second half WAR is 0.2 with a -7.1 offensive factor. The 0.2 WAR places him 10th on the team for everyday players. His first half 1.6 WAR placed him 6th on the Sox. Overall, his 1.8 WAR places 8th, but Young might have passed him had he not gotten hurt or has 300+ PAs. Beni and Swihart might be over 1.8 next year. The problem is none of these guys play 3B.

 

I am certainly leaving the door open for Shaw to be out FT 3Bman next year. I think, if no deals are made, he's got the inside shot at winning the job. I think we'd be better defensively with Shaw at 1b and HanRam at DH, but that depends on who is the 3Bman next year, if Shaw is at 1B.

 

I'm not counting on 1 PA from PAblo, but I'm not writing him off either. Too bad he and Shaw both hit righties much better than lefties. Same with Moncada.

 

I'm not sure Moncada is so bad as he looked in his super tiny sample size this year. The Sox must have thought he was very close to ready to bring him up when they did. A short winter season, some off season workout and spring training may help him develop a little more, but I am not counting on him to be our starting 3Bman on opening day. It could happen, but if it does, it might be because Pablo and Shaw look shaky not because Moncada looks great.

 

Between the 3 of these guys and maybe Hernandez, Rutledge and Holt, we'll probably be okay at 3B, but I wouldn't be surprised if we try to find a short term stop gap 3Bman this winter.

 

2016

25th in 3B WAR at 1.4

27th in 3B OPS at .702 (.007 from the worst/.060 from slightly above average)

 

 

[Kimmi]

I'd refer to it as The Benintendi Effect. They saw it work once and believed it would always work.

 

That probably had something to do with it, but still.

 

They had to have seen the difference in readiness between Beni and Moncada in AA.

[Spudboy]

i think they wondered whether his athleticism could transcend the holes - and since 3B was not actually a desperate need, they could always unplug it. nobody got hurt.

 

So they chose raw athleticism over the ability to hit well.

 

That is encouraging.

[Spudboy]

That probably had something to do with it, but still.

 

They had to have seen the difference in readiness between Beni and Moncada in AA.

 

What are you saying KImmi? That the Sox staff saw both players MLB ready while in different stages of development?

 

Anyway, it's clar they made a mistake in judging Moncada. Either that or he completely froze in hi brief appearances.

 

He reminds me of an apple pie that has just been removed from an oven ( I've baked thousands of pies ). The shell can be raw or under-cooked even when the top crust looked nice and crispy brown.

[sk7326]

So they chose raw athleticism over the ability to hit well.

 

That is encouraging.

 

he DID hit well in the minors - and struck out a ton. nobody got hurt by a look - nothing was set back. i'd still put him on the playoff roster.

[Kimmi]

What are you saying KImmi? That the Sox staff saw both players MLB ready while in different stages of development?

 

Anyway, it's clar they made a mistake in judging Moncada. Either that or he completely froze in hi brief appearances.

 

He reminds me of an apple pie that has just been removed from an oven ( I've baked thousands of pies ). The shell can be raw or under-cooked even when the top crust looked nice and crispy brown.

 

I have no problem with the Sox calling Moncada up if they truly thought he was ready.

[Dojji]

Yeah, the short term callup can almost be seen as a reward for an excellent minor league campaign. Kid gets a taste, learns a bit about what it will take to stay up -- if it's any kind of stumbling pit for a kid to get a taste of the majors at that point in an otherwise excellent season, then the kid was doomed to fail at the outset so STILL no harm was really done.

 

(I can't help but think that we're re-hashing the Middlebrooks argument in the guise of the Moncada argument)

[oldtimer]

he DID hit well in the minors - and struck out a ton. nobody got hurt by a look - nothing was set back. i'd still put him on the playoff roster.

 

Instead of who? Hill

[moonslav59]

Instead of who? Hill

 

There's good reason to put several people on the playoff roster over Hill.

 

He's 14th on the team in OPS over the last 28 days (.678)

 

He's 14th on the teaam in 2nd half OPS at .563.

 

[Spudboy]

You people are rationalizing failure.

[Dojji]

You people are rationalizing failure.

 

What failure? What exactly do you believe to have failed?

[Spudboy]

What failure? What exactly do you believe to have failed?

 

Either or both of Moncada or the experts that judged him ready for MLB.

 

Now if he was brought up as a "reward" for having a good season in MiLB and so he could get a taste of the bigs that is fine.

 

However, anyone who has played the game and has watched the game for many years can see that he is clearly not fit for MLB duty yet.

 

If you or others have witnessed otherwise ( as in watching many of his MiLB games in person ) or have seen him make really smart and proper plays in the field and at bat in MLB I would like to hear about those things in detail.

 

Everyone is all gaga and blowing loads all over themselves with the "#1 Prospect by BB America" hype train. He must be the next great Red Sox!!!!!!!!

 

I heard all the same or similar s*** about several guys that ended up fizzling or having only decent MLB careers before.

 

Until Moncada learns more about the game, refines his techniques, and learns to hit WELL, he is just another really good athlete.

 

And athleticism and Talent are not synonymous.

[moonslav59]

No doubt Moncada looked awful in his 8 games here since being called up, but I think it's rather harsh to call any 20 PA sample size a "failure".

 

I know his issues go beyond batting. He looked shaky in the field and on the base paths too, but this kid is better than what he showed in those 8 games.

 

Sample size, sample size, sample size!

[oldtimer]

No doubt Moncada looked awful in his 8 games here since being called up, but I think it's rather harsh to call any 20 PA sample size a "failure".

 

I know his issues go beyond batting. He looked shaky in the field and on the base paths too, but this kid is better than what he showed in those 8 games.

 

Sample size, sample size, sample size!

 

We are in a pennant chase and will soon be in the playoffs. I wouldn't experiment with Moncada. The sample we got is enough to indicate he isn't yet ready to play at the level needed. Maybe as a runner, but even there I wonder.

[cp176]

We are in a pennant chase and will soon be in the playoffs. I wouldn't experiment with Moncada. The sample we got is enough to indicate he isn't yet ready to play at the level needed. Maybe as a runner, but even there I wonder.

 

I hope that they are smart enough to not use him in any capacity. He certainly has great athletic attributes but putting anyone out there before they are ready is ridiculous. I don't care how fast he is. It is a recipe for failure and he doesn't deserve to be put in that situation. He has had 19 major league at bats. Maybe somebody out there can say for sure what that might tell us about his future. I don't care how many times he has struck out, my crystal ball says the picture isn't all that clear. Every scout that has ever seen him play, has "gushed" about what he could become. Maybe though he just won't be good enough to break through in Boston. He sure might bring us back something in a trade package though. But maybe we ought to consider giving him just a little more time to develop before we just kick him to the curb.

[Maxbialystock]

No doubt Moncada looked awful in his 8 games here since being called up, but I think it's rather harsh to call any 20 PA sample size a "failure".

 

I know his issues go beyond batting. He looked shaky in the field and on the base paths too, but this kid is better than what he showed in those 8 games.

 

Sample size, sample size, sample size!

 

Exactly. Moncada has exactly zero sample size at AAA and before that he had exactly zero sample size of any kind of organized ball for something like 18 months. Heck, even his sample size at AA wasn't all that great.

 

We can all see he has tremendous potential, but you have to grant us our right to question whether he is ready yet.

[cp176]

Exactly. Moncada has exactly zero sample size at AAA and before that he had exactly zero sample size of any kind of organized ball for something like 18 months. Heck, even his sample size at AA wasn't all that great.

 

We can all see he has tremendous potential, but you have to grant us our right to question whether he is ready yet.

 

I think that anyone would be stupid not to question his readiness. He isn't. I'm just not in the business of criticizing any young prospects these days. I will continue to speak up for him as I would any of our other young prospects and players going forward. Until they actually do something that might make me question their attitudes, I won't be the one criticizing any 21 year olds.

[Dojji]

We are in a pennant chase and will soon be in the playoffs. I wouldn't experiment with Moncada. The sample we got is enough to indicate he isn't yet ready to play at the level needed. Maybe as a runner, but even there I wonder.

 

Yeah no, he's not ready yet. They gave him a chance to surprise them and he didn't. That's what the callup was about. Give it a year or so and try him again. A kid like Moncada could be a long development project, we're going to have to be patient.

[sk7326]

Instead of who? Hill

 

no instead - you should have an extra roster spot due to needing one less pitcher possibly

[Palodios]

Either or both of Moncada or the experts that judged him ready for MLB.

 

Now if he was brought up as a "reward" for having a good season in MiLB and so he could get a taste of the bigs that is fine.

 

However, anyone who has played the game and has watched the game for many years can see that he is clearly not fit for MLB duty yet.

 

If you or others have witnessed otherwise ( as in watching many of his MiLB games in person ) or have seen him make really smart and proper plays in the field and at bat in MLB I would like to hear about those things in detail.

 

Everyone is all gaga and blowing loads all over themselves with the "#1 Prospect by BB America" hype train. He must be the next great Red Sox!!!!!!!!

 

I heard all the same or similar s*** about several guys that ended up fizzling or having only decent MLB careers before.

 

Until Moncada learns more about the game, refines his techniques, and learns to hit WELL, he is just another really good athlete.

 

And athleticism and Talent are not synonymous.

 

 

Moncada has had what, 40 games in AA ball? He's been excellent at every level of minor league play so far, but he definitely needed more time to adjust to advanced pitching.