Christian Vazquez

[Kimmi]

There's a few ways we might carry all 3 catchers:

 

1) An OF'er gets hurt, so Swihart/Young become our LF platoon.

2) JBJ is traded and Beni moves to CF (see above platoon).

3) We trade away Holt, so we have no 5th OF'er.

 

That's possible, but I don't see it happening if Dombrowski is being sincere about wanting Swihart to focus solely on catching. I guess in a pinch Swihart could go back to being a part time left fielder, but that puts us back in the same position that we are in now in terms of determining how good of a catcher he can be.

[moonslav59]

That's possible, but I don't see it happening if Dombrowski is being sincere about wanting Swihart to focus solely on catching. I guess in a pinch Swihart could go back to being a part time left fielder, but that puts us back in the same position that we are in now in terms of determining how good of a catcher he can be.

 

Being the 5th OF'er in an OF with Beni-Betts-Bradley means just about zero playing time in LF. Young is more than capable playing every inning that an OF'er needs a rest or is out hurt for a short time. Most teams like to have a player able to play the OF in the 5th OF'er role. Holt has been that player, but our OF was much more unstable, which meant he played OF often (too much, in my opinion).

 

If we traded Holt (not giving him away, I might add), we'd have Hernandez as the utility IF'er, Young as the utility OF/DH, Shaw as the utility corner IF'er or starting 3Bman, if Pablo flops again, which would leave the 4th sub role to: Swihart, Marrero, Dubon, Moncada or Travis. There's several reasons for not wanting anyone on this list, except Swihart, but I seriously doubt we trade Holt, so this whole point is likely moot.

 

We won't carry 3 catchers, but there are some advantages to doing so, especially if Hernandez shows he's a better middle IF depth choice than Holt.

[moonslav59]

Christian Vazquez made his fall debut Saturday with Cangrejeros de Santurce. He went 2 for 3 with two singles and two walks and caught all nine innings.

 

-soxprospects.com

[southpaw777]

Christian Vazquez made his fall debut Saturday with Cangrejeros de Santurce. He went 2 for 3 with two singles and two walks and caught all nine innings.

 

-soxprospects.com

 

with Vaz and Leon pretty much penciled in right now as 1-1a for the catchers job, Swihart should do exactly what DD wants him to do. Catch full time in AAA. His value is as a catcher. We can easily find another body to put in the OF if it comes to that again. One of the three B's as well as Young would have to get hurt again. Also Holt. So I wouldnt worry about Swihart having to be called up to play the OF.also, i think were looking at Joey Bats and Beltran. Both can fill a corner OF spot.

If Vaz and Leon stay healthy I see Swihart in a trade. He may have been in one this year until the injury fiasco in our OF, which unltimately ended His season. Swihart needs to close the gap between his bat and glove as a catcher. The opposite of Leon and Vaz. He should have a ton of interest by July if he gets back on track.

If one of Vaz or Leon get a bad injury again....all bets are off. If not, I say Swihart will be wearing another uniform before next season is over.

[cp176]

I would hate to see Swihart go, but I also think that without the injury he might have already been traded. Beltran is beginning to draw some real interest from a number of teams. Ultimately, I think he gets paid a lot by someone. I'm not sure how much of a bidding war DD wants to get into for him. I still think and hope that they sign a dh and don't try to massage the pieces together from within.

[southpaw777]

I would hate to see Swihart go, but I also think that without the injury he might have already been traded. Beltran is beginning to draw some real interest from a number of teams. Ultimately, I think he gets paid a lot by someone. I'm not sure how much of a bidding war DD wants to get into for him. I still think and hope that they sign a dh and don't try to massage the pieces together from within.

 

As long as the deal is good in years i think the Sox will spend a little more. 20-25m per for a two year deal. Maybe a third could be added for Bautista since hes yonger, but i wouldnt go more than that.

Either way, i agree that they should go outside the organization to fill the spot.

[moonslav59]

I think a third year really squeezes Moncada, Devers or Travis. Of course a trade could be made, but even a two year deal may keep a great kid from getting a chance.

 

I'm fine with Beltran for 2 years. I doubt Joey B settles for two. This could be his last chance to hit jackpot.

[southpaw777]

I think a third year really squeezes Moncada, Devers or Travis. Of course a trade could be made, but even a two year deal may keep a great kid from getting a chance.

 

I'm fine with Beltran for 2 years. I doubt Joey B settles for two. This could be his last chance to hit jackpot.

 

I agree with Bats. Hes going to try for more. I like Beltran. SH who is still a 300 bat with power from both sides. My guess is 2 years would be plenty. Maybe even a 1yr overpriced deal or an option of some sort. Hes 40 so itll be interesting how teams approach him.

[moonslav59]

I agree with Bats. Hes going to try for more. I like Beltran. SH who is still a 300 bat with power from both sides. My guess is 2 years would be plenty. Maybe even a 1yr overpriced deal or an option of some sort. Hes 40 so itll be interesting how teams approach him.

 

I'd love a 1 year deal with a team option. Maybe $18M/1 with a $17M option and a $4M buyout- making it a $22M/1 or $35M/2 deal.

[southpaw777]

I'd love a 1 year deal with a team option. Maybe $18M/1 with a $17M option and a $4M buyout- making it a $22M/1 or $35M/2 deal.

 

True...If we only go one year it better be at least 20m. More years, less $$$

Either way, i agree with you...its going to be right around $20m per

[moonslav59]

True...If we only go one year it better be at least 20m. More years, less $$$

Either way, i agree with you...its going to be right around $20m per

 

Makes me think what a bargain Papi was at $16M a year!

[notin]

The fact that Beltane has more of Dombrowski's attention than Encarnacion does show the Sox really are not in on the Jays slugger. You don't sign Encarnacion because a deal with Carlos Beltran fell through.

 

At some point, Brandon Moss probably gets on the radar instead. Or Mitch Moreland. Basically a LHH that can platoon with Young...

[moonslav59]

The fact that Beltane has more of Dombrowski's attention than Encarnacion does show the Sox really are not in on the Jays slugger. You don't sign Encarnacion because a deal with Carlos Beltran fell through.

 

At some point, Brandon Moss probably gets on the radar instead. Or Mitch Moreland. Basically a LHH that can platoon with Young...

 

With the Yankees involved in the Beltran sweepstakes, I'm worried how high his cost will rise, but he seems like the best solution.

 

Beltran can play LF in NL parks and maybe vs tough LHPs. With EE, either HanRam or EE will be on the bench in NL parks. IT's not a huge deal, but it is a factor.

 

[Behindenemylines]

He needs to show that he can hit otherwise he is a backup catcher moving forward.

[notin]

Vazquez will be the No. 1 carcher. No doubt about that, Swihart's catching numbers were not bad, but he never looked like he'd make it as a catcher. He was VG in LF, an improving switch hitter, and readu to take over LF. Which he was in the prcess of doing before he was hurt.

 

He needs to show that he can hit otherwise he is a backup catcher moving forward.

 

Agree. Vazquez is Jose Molina 2.0. Not sure why so many are convinced he is some sort of generational talent as a defensive catcher. He's a good defender and not much of a hitter, which is the job requirements as a standard MLB backup catcher. In that capacity he does fill a need for the 2017 Red Sox, but too many people find it necessary to claim he is something he isn't. ..

[moonslav59]

Vaz has not proven he can't hit. There's still time to get to be an average hitting catcher.

 

 

What's the average catcher hit like?

 

Team catcher OPS in 2016:

#10 .738

#15 .703

#20 .664

 

Top 35 catchers in MLB this year (250+ PAs):

 

#15 .733

#20 .702

 

11 of the bottom 35 catchers had an OPS at .631 or below.

 

If you go to 300+ PAs, there were only 24 MLB catchers who qualified.

 

10 of those 24 catchers had an OPS at .711 or lower.

 

You don't have to be a great hitting catcher to be a starter in MLB.

[Dojji]

On the other hand that does also mean that a catcher who can hit excellently is all the more valuable, meaning there's still arguments to be made in favor of all 3 catchers.

[cp176]

Agree. Vazquez is Jose Molina 2.0. Not sure why so many are convinced he is some sort of generational talent as a defensive catcher. He's a good defender and not much of a hitter, which is the job requirements as a standard MLB backup catcher. In that capacity he does fill a need for the 2017 Red Sox, but too many people find it necessary to claim he is something he isn't. ..

 

You know what - i agree with you based on what we have seen from him so far for sure. The arguements of the sample size being too small to date could certainly be said about Leon and for sure about Swihart. With respect to leon and Vazquez, it is Leon for sure. We really don't know much about Swihart just yet.

[moonslav59]

Vaz has not proven he can't hit. There's still time to get to be an average hitting catcher.

 

 

What's the average catcher hit like?

 

Team catcher OPS in 2016:

#10 .738

#15 .703

#20 .664

 

Top 35 catchers in MLB this year (250+ PAs):

 

#15 .733

#20 .702

 

11 of the bottom 35 catchers had an OPS at .631 or below.

 

If you go to 300+ PAs, there were only 24 MLB catchers who qualified.

 

10 of those 24 catchers had an OPS at .711 or lower.

 

You don't have to be a great hitting catcher to be a starter in MLB.

 

Looking at specific catchers and their OPS in 2016. Out of the top 30 catchers by PAs...

 

PA Rank PAs Catcher OPS

7. 532 Vogt .711

11. 464 Wieters .711

12. 458 Norris .583

15. 420 Barnhart .702

17. 393 Cervelli .699

18. 376 Castro .684

19. 373 Suzuki .704

20. 373 McCann .629 (Just traded for a couple nice prospects)

21. 338 Ianetta .631

22. 334 Navarro .587

25. 292 Salty .630

26. 291 C Perez .568

27. 284 Montero .684

30. 276 d'Arnaud .629

31. 264 Gomes .527

32. 259 AJ Pierzynski .547

33. 256 Casali .609

34. 253 Maldonado .683

35. 251 B Wilson .626

 

19 of the top 35 catchers were below .711

14 of 35 were below .685

10 of 35 were below .631

5 of the top 32 were below .583

 

 

 

[southpaw777]

I think Vaz, with regular play, will hit enough to be a starter. Is he going to hit 280? No, but i can see 250ish with regular ABs. No real power, but I can see gap to gap line drive hitter with a bunch of doubles...i see his Abs and I see good pitch recognition amd he also sees a lot of pitches. Guys like Vaz develop the offense later because theyre doing what they should be...gettimg the D solid first...he wont ever be a stud with the bat, but Give him the regular Abs and avoid injury and I see someone that could be a dominant force behind the plate along with a decent stick for the next decade...

[moonslav59]

I think Vaz, with regular play, will hit enough to be a starter. Is he going to hit 280? No, but i can see 250ish with regular ABs. No real power, but I can see gap to gap line drive hitter with a bunch of doubles...i see his Abs and I see good pitch recognition amd he also sees a lot of pitches. Guys like Vaz develop the offense later because theyre doing what they should be...gettimg the D solid first...he wont ever be a stud with the bat, but Give him the regular Abs and avoid injury and I see someone that could be a dominant force behind the plate along with a decent stick for the next decade...

 

I totally agree, and if he never gets above .680, he still may be in the middle third of catchers. If he can get to .640, he may be near the top of the bottom third of starting catchers in MLB.

 

Keeping his defense very high, would make him an overall plus at catcher.

[moonslav59]

From soxprospects.com...

 

Christian Vazquez's (pictured, above) week started off slowly, as he went 0 for 7 with two walks over his first two games. He turned it around in his final two appearances, going 5 for 8 with a walk, including a walk-off home run on Sunday in the bottom of the 10th. The home run was his first extra-base hit in eight games with Santurce.

[southpaw777]

I totally agree, and if he never gets above .680, he still may be in the middle third of catchers. If he can get to .640, he may be near the top of the bottom third of starting catchers in MLB.

 

Keeping his defense very high, would make him an overall plus at catcher.

 

Absolutely. His slg is never high beause hes not a hr/power hitter. Base hits and doubles, although he will run into a few every year. Also taking some walks. His D and handling of the pitching staff/game has been his calling card throughout the minors. Although a SSS in MLB, he has had a lot of good things said about him by his pitchers and teammates.

Im hoping he wins the starting job and doesnt give it up for the next decade.

[moonslav59]

Absolutely. His slg is never high beause hes not a hr/power hitter. Base hits and doubles, although he will run into a few every year. Also taking some walks. His D and handling of the pitching staff/game has been his calling card throughout the minors. Although a SSS in MLB, he has had a lot of good things said about him by his pitchers and teammates.

Im hoping he wins the starting job and doesnt give it up for the next decade.

 

Me too, and I think Leon's presence will help him and the team in many ways.

[southpaw777]

Me too, and I think Leon's presence will help him and the team in many ways.

 

They are right about the same age. One year apart I believe. Great situation to have two defensive stud catchers under control.

[moonslav59]

They are right about the same age. One year apart I believe. Great situation to have two defensive stud catchers under control.

 

Close in age, but not quite as much in professional baseball experience due mainly to Vaz's lost season to injury.

 

Leon started at age 18. He has 612 games in the minors plus 163 in the Venezuela League. That's 775! Although his first three seasons in MLB consisted of just 34 games combined. He did make it to the big show those three years (2012-2014).

 

Vaz started at age 17 but only had 542 games in the minors and 106 in the PR League. That's 648 total- 127 less than Leon. He has 112 MLB games compared to Leon's 153. All totaled, he about 170 games behind Leon.

 

They both have struggled with hitting, but Leon has had a history of some hot streaks (2012: .856 in the minors plus this year). Vaz had one good season way back in 2011 at single A.

 

[notin]

Looking at specific catchers and their OPS in 2016. Out of the top 30 catchers by PAs...

 

PA Rank PAs Catcher OPS

7. 532 Vogt .711

11. 464 Wieters .711

12. 458 Norris .583

15. 420 Barnhart .702

17. 393 Cervelli .699

18. 376 Castro .684

19. 373 Suzuki .704

20. 373 McCann .629 (Just traded for a couple nice prospects)

21. 338 Ianetta .631

22. 334 Navarro .587

25. 292 Salty .630

26. 291 C Perez .568

27. 284 Montero .684

30. 276 d'Arnaud .629

31. 264 Gomes .527

32. 259 AJ Pierzynski .547

33. 256 Casali .609

34. 253 Maldonado .683

35. 251 B Wilson .626

 

19 of the top 35 catchers were below .711

14 of 35 were below .685

10 of 35 were below .631

5 of the top 32 were below .583

 

 

 

 

But then isn't there a strong correlation between the teams with the better hitting catchers and the teams that made the post-season?

[moonslav59]

But then isn't there a strong correlation between the teams with the better hitting catchers and the teams that made the post-season?

 

Not as much as you might expect.

 

The worst catching OPS in MLB by far were the Guardians catchers (.558).

1. Nats .833

4. Rangers .775

5. Giants .760

6. Cubs .758

14. Dodgers .724

18, Red Sox .681

19. Blue Jays .667

24. Orioles .632

27. Mets .615

30. Guardians .558

 

Looks pretty spread out with 6 of 10 in the bottom 17.

[notin]

Not as much as you might expect.

 

The worst catching OPS in MLB by far were the Guardians catchers (.558).

1. Nats .833

4. Rangers .775

5. Giants .760

6. Cubs .758

14. Dodgers .724

18, Red Sox .681

19. Blue Jays .667

24. Orioles .632

27. Mets .615

30. Guardians .558

 

Looks pretty spread out with 6 of 10 in the bottom 17.

 

4 of the top 6 made the playoffs. I wonder how many other positions have that.

 

Although Texas had Lucroy for less than half a season...

[moonslav59]

4 of the top 6 made the playoffs. I wonder how many other positions have that.

 

Although Texas had Lucroy for less than half a season...

 

Yeah, well one of the top 13 teams made to the ALCS or NLCS. Two of the top 18 made it that far.