Christian Vazquez

[mvp 78]

Yup, weird decision to me. I always thought they should gave dumped Hanigan due to age.

[Kimmi]

Yup, weird decision to me. I always thought they should gave dumped Hanigan due to age.

 

No, I never thought they should have dumped Hanigan.

 

What they should have done was not rushed Vazquez up in the first place.

[Spudboy]

No, I never thought they should have dumped Hanigan.

 

What they should have done was not rushed Vazquez up in the first place.

 

Bingo. And Swihart may have still been playing or at worst Leone would have been up.

[moonslav59]

I believe I read that the Sox burned Vazquez' last option this year by sending him down and leaving him there more than 20 days.

 

That will factor into decisions made next year regarding our catchers.

 

soxprospects.com has Vazquez listed with 1 option left.

 

I'm not sure the "rushed Vazquez". Just because he struggled, doesn't mean he was rushed or "not ready yet".

I think Sox management has always doubted Swihart's defense/staff-handling skills. I think there plan all along was to bring up Vaz when he was ready. He was playing in AAA, so I feel they thought he was the better option. As bad as he did offensively, it still might have been the right choice.

I'm glad Leon took away the choice that will eventually still have to be made. Leon's great play has allowed us to further evaluate Vaz and Swi. Too bad, Swi's injury has hindered that ability.

[mvp 78]

@redsoxstats Because Vazquez was kept in AAA the last month his final option yr burned. Hit .233. Keeping as backup 7/25-9/1 may have been better play.

[S5Dewey]

@redsoxstats Because Vazquez was kept in AAA the last month his final option yr burned. Hit .233. Keeping as backup 7/25-9/1 may have been better play.

 

I'm not questioning that this is correct, I just don't understand it.

 

As I understand it a player has three 'option years', years when he can be 'optioned' between the minors and the parent club and allow the parent club to retain control of the player. Nowhere have I read that these three years have to be consecutive. According to BR his first call-up was in 2014 when he played in 55 games before being optioned back to Pawtucket. That's option year #1.

He lost the entire 2015 season to his TJ surgery but since the three 'option years' don't have to be consecutive years 2015 is not an option year for him. Now he's been sent back down in 2016 to work on his hitting, which is option year #2. Now I'm hearing that he's out of options.

 

What am I missing?

[illinoisredsox]

I'm not questioning that this is correct, I just don't understand it.

 

As I understand it a player has three 'option years', years when he can be 'optioned' between the minors and the parent club and allow the parent club to retain control of the player. Nowhere have I read that these three years have to be consecutive. According to BR his first call-up was in 2014 when he played in 55 games before being optioned back to Pawtucket. That's option year #1.

He lost the entire 2015 season to his TJ surgery but since the three 'option years' don't have to be consecutive years 2015 is not an option year for him. Now he's been sent back down in 2016 to work on his hitting, which is option year #2. Now I'm hearing that he's out of options.

 

What am I missing?

 

SoxProspects lists all transactions and in looking back, Vazquez was first placed on the 40 man in Nov 2012 (at that point he had been in the organization since 2008, so they may have had to put him on it or risk losing him, not sure of all of those rules). In March 2013 he was optioned to Portland (1). In March 2014 he was optioned to Pawtucket (2). So the 3rd option year was burned this year.

Edited August 28, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[moonslav59]

SoxProspects lists all transactions and in looking back, Vazquez was first placed on the 40 man in Nov 2012 (at that point he had been in the organization since 2008, so they may have had to put him on it or risk losing him, not sure of all of those rules). In March 2013 he was optioned to Portland (1). In March 2014 he was optioned to Pawtucket (2). So the 3rd option year was burned this year.

 

He was never called up in 2013, so how was he "optioned" to Portland?

 

Maybe there is a rule on years of service forcing a player to burn an "optioned" without without even being called up, but I am unaware of it.

 

soxprospects.com has him listed with 1 option remaining.

 

 

[illinoisredsox]

He was never called up in 2013, so how was he "optioned" to Portland?

 

Maybe there is a rule on years of service forcing a player to burn an "optioned" without without even being called up, but I am unaware of it.

 

soxprospects.com has him listed with 1 option remaining.

 

 

 

This is from Wikipedia, so ...

 

"If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. The rules for this are as follows. (In all cases, an assignment of a player on a major-league disabled list to the minors while on a rehabilitation assignment does not count as time spent in the minors.)

Once a player has been placed on a team's 40-man roster, a team has 3 option years on that player.

A player is considered to have used one of those three option years when he spends at least 20 days in the minors in any of those 3 seasons."

 

So it appears the option year have nothing to do with the active (25 man) roster and everything to do wth the 40 man. Once Vazquez was put on the 40 man roster prior to the 2013 season, the options kicked in. He didn't have to be called up to the active roster; being on the 40 man was enough.

 

This is backed up by the words used in the SoxProspects tranasactions: the March 2013 and 2014 (and this year's) verbiage is "optioned", not "reassigned" or other designation.

Edited August 28, 2016 by illinoisredsox

[jacksonianmarch]

If you're on the 40 man prior to the season and don't break camp with the team, you have to be optioned to the minors prior to opening day

[S5Dewey]

This is from Wikipedia, so ...

 

"If a player is on the 40-man roster but not on the active major league roster, he is said to be on optional assignment—his organization may freely move him between the major league club and the minor league club. The rules for this are as follows. (In all cases, an assignment of a player on a major-league disabled list to the minors while on a rehabilitation assignment does not count as time spent in the minors.)

Once a player has been placed on a team's 40-man roster, a team has 3 option years on that player.

A player is considered to have used one of those three option years when he spends at least 20 days in the minors in any of those 3 seasons."

 

So it appears the option year have nothing to do with the active (25 man) roster and everything to do wth the 40 man. Once Vazquez was put on the 40 man roster prior to the 2013 season, the options kicked in. He didn't have to be called up to the active roster; being on the 40 man was enough.

 

This is backed up by the words used in the SoxProspects tranasactions: the March 2013 and 2014 (and this year's) verbiage is "optioned", not "reassigned" or other designation.

 

Thanks, IRS. Just when I thought this whole "option year" business couldn't get any more complicated something like this pops up.

[S5Dewey]

And BTW, this situation with Vaz only makes me more sure of my reluctance to bring up Benitindi. Sometimes players have to be optioned for reasons other than simply not performing. The more option years the team has at their disposal the better off the team is.

[Kimmi]

soxprospects.com has Vazquez listed with 1 option left.

 

I'm not sure the "rushed Vazquez". Just because he struggled, doesn't mean he was rushed or "not ready yet".

I think Sox management has always doubted Swihart's defense/staff-handling skills. I think there plan all along was to bring up Vaz when he was ready. He was playing in AAA, so I feel they thought he was the better option. As bad as he did offensively, it still might have been the right choice.

I'm glad Leon took away the choice that will eventually still have to be made. Leon's great play has allowed us to further evaluate Vaz and Swi. Too bad, Swi's injury has hindered that ability.

 

Obviously, I disagree that they did not act hastily in bringing up Vazquez. I agree that Swihart's defensive skills are not where management wants them to be. I also agree that the plan was to call up Vazquez when he was ready.

 

However, I think that Vaz could have used more time in AAA after sitting out an entire season, and the only reason they called him up after only 6 games was because they felt a sense of urgency.

[Kimmi]

And BTW, this situation with Vaz only makes me more sure of my reluctance to bring up Benitindi. Sometimes players have to be optioned for reasons other than simply not performing. The more option years the team has at their disposal the better off the team is.

 

Agreed. I hear a lot of people say that they don't care about burning an option year or that they don't care about losing a year of control that won't affect the team for 6 more years, but these things often have a way of coming back to haunt the team.

 

If the situation is such that the need is dire, then by all means, call up the player. Otherwise, don't rush it or risk it.

 

All that said, I was against calling up Benintendi before September, but it seems that management made the correct call there, Beni's current injury notwithstanding.

[moonslav59]

Obviously, I disagree that they did not act hastily in bringing up Vazquez. I agree that Swihart's defensive skills are not where management wants them to be. I also agree that the plan was to call up Vazquez when he was ready.

 

However, I think that Vaz could have used more time in AAA after sitting out an entire season, and the only reason they called him up after only 6 games was because they felt a sense of urgency.

 

I seriously doubt they brought Vazquez up before they felt he was physically and mentally "ready". I'm not even sure they felt any "urgency" to get Swihart out of the FT catcher role. After all, he did pretty well last year after obviously being called up "before he was ready". Maybe the larger part of the equation was that Sox management felt Swihart needed more work to "get ready" than Vazquez. Vazquez was not "rushed " in 2014. He was apparently "major league ready" then. Only his injury kept him from being the FT catcher in 2015 as Swihart would have remained in AAA maybe until September of 2015.

 

I'm not arguing who was going to be better, and I never use tiny sample sizes to say, "see, he was ready" or "see, he wasn't ready", but to me the call-up of Vazquez was always about when he was deemed recovered from his injury and major league ready health wise and not developmentally wise. Maybe they still felt Swihart was not developmentally ready to be a FT catcher at the major league level.

 

Obviously, Vazquez has offensive issues. He pretty much always has. I feel the Sox have known that all along, but they were willing to look beyond his offensive deficiency in order to realize the defensive advantages. They probably didn't expect him to do that badly at the plate, and with the size of the sample size, we'll never really know the reason Vazquez sucked at the plate. It could be any of these reasons or something else:

1) He just plain sucks on offense at the ML level and always will. After all, his 2016 OPS is only .034 lower than his 2014 OPS- pretty darn close. Maybe it is just "who he is."

2) He just plains sucks at the ML level but will someday improve enough to be capable or decent. His OPS at AAA is .704 this year and .711 over 2 years at AAA. (.731 in AA)

3) His injury affected him more than Sox management expected, and MAYBE, not certainly, he needed more time to recover and find his rhythm on offense.

4) It was all just an ill-timed slump.

 

I don't think anybody knows for sure, if he was "rushed" or not. We do pretty much know Swihart was "rushed" last year. The choices Sox management made this year between these two guys are very complicated and nuanced. I find it hard to be critical on their choices, so far.

 

[southpaw777]

No, I never thought they should have dumped Hanigan.

 

What they should have done was not rushed Vazquez up in the first place.[/quote

 

I think they may have left him down a bit longer if Swihart didnt look as bad as he did. His D wasnt even 100% yet, so to think the bat was going to be good was probably wishful thinking. Hes hitting the ball very well in AAA right now and im pretty sure hes still a major part of the Sox plans moving forward.

[cp176]

I seriously doubt they brought Vazquez up before they felt he was physically and mentally "ready". I'm not even sure they felt any "urgency" to get Swihart out of the FT catcher role. After all, he did pretty well last year after obviously being called up "before he was ready". Maybe the larger part of the equation was that Sox management felt Swihart needed more work to "get ready" than Vazquez. Vazquez was not "rushed " in 2014. He was apparently "major league ready" then. Only his injury kept him from being the FT catcher in 2015 as Swihart would have remained in AAA maybe until September of 2015.

 

I'm not arguing who was going to be better, and I never use tiny sample sizes to say, "see, he was ready" or "see, he wasn't ready", but to me the call-up of Vazquez was always about when he was deemed recovered from his injury and major league ready health wise and not developmentally wise. Maybe they still felt Swihart was not developmentally ready to be a FT catcher at the major league level.

 

Obviously, Vazquez has offensive issues. He pretty much always has. I feel the Sox have known that all along, but they were willing to look beyond his offensive deficiency in order to realize the defensive advantages. They probably didn't expect him to do that badly at the plate, and with the size of the sample size, we'll never really know the reason Vazquez sucked at the plate. It could be any of these reasons or something else:

1) He just plain sucks on offense at the ML level and always will. After all, his 2016 OPS is only .034 lower than his 2014 OPS- pretty darn close. Maybe it is just "who he is."

2) He just plains sucks at the ML level but will someday improve enough to be capable or decent. His OPS at AAA is .704 this year and .711 over 2 years at AAA. (.731 in AA)

3) His injury affected him more than Sox management expected, and MAYBE, not certainly, he needed more time to recover and find his rhythm on offense.

4) It was all just an ill-timed slump.

 

I don't think anybody knows for sure, if he was "rushed" or not. We do pretty much know Swihart was "rushed" last year. The choices Sox management made this year between these two guys are very complicated and nuanced. I find it hard to be critical on their choices, so far.

 

 

He was brought up out of just plain need. You had to have someone back there who could at least give you adequate defense on a daily basis. He is 26 years old - the medical staff cleared- it was his time. I really am not sure that he is going to become any where near the catcher that everyone projected. He is starting to hit a little better at the AAA level. Not great but better. It is very conceivable that he becomes a trade candidate. If they decide that he becomes the backup going forward great, but he might very well have great value for us a trade chip. Backup catchers you can find - not so much with top of the line pitchers.

[sk7326]

With Vasquez, his hitting was awful. But his receiving was not differentiating ... it might have been fine, but we weren't getting amazing results from the pitchers. I am not blaming him 100%, but noting he was not bringing that much to the party marginally. Leon has outplayed him (and any realistic expectation) by such a degree it's gotta be respected.

 

And who knows? The framing and receiving skills for Vasquez are great, but perhaps the working with pitchers squishy part of it wasn't - and could use more work.

[mvp 78]

With Vasquez, his hitting was awful. But his receiving was not differentiating ... it might have been fine, but we weren't getting amazing results from the pitchers. I am not blaming him 100%, but noting he was not bringing that much to the party marginally. Leon has outplayed him (and any realistic expectation) by such a degree it's gotta be respected.

 

And who knows? The framing and receiving skills for Vasquez are great, but perhaps the working with pitchers squishy part of it wasn't - and could use more work.

Uhhhh? Is this an Anthony Weiner reference?

[bosoxmal]

Binintendi has clinched LF. That is obvious. Just like Betts was (at least to me) in 2014. Swihart is a switching player who can play more then one position. The Rays would love him! And they might hand over one of their good young pitchers for him.

[Kimmi]

I seriously doubt they brought Vazquez up before they felt he was physically and mentally "ready". I'm not even sure they felt any "urgency" to get Swihart out of the FT catcher role. After all, he did pretty well last year after obviously being called up "before he was ready". Maybe the larger part of the equation was that Sox management felt Swihart needed more work to "get ready" than Vazquez. Vazquez was not "rushed " in 2014. He was apparently "major league ready" then. Only his injury kept him from being the FT catcher in 2015 as Swihart would have remained in AAA maybe until September of 2015.

 

I'm not arguing who was going to be better, and I never use tiny sample sizes to say, "see, he was ready" or "see, he wasn't ready", but to me the call-up of Vazquez was always about when he was deemed recovered from his injury and major league ready health wise and not developmentally wise. Maybe they still felt Swihart was not developmentally ready to be a FT catcher at the major league level.

 

Obviously, Vazquez has offensive issues. He pretty much always has. I feel the Sox have known that all along, but they were willing to look beyond his offensive deficiency in order to realize the defensive advantages. They probably didn't expect him to do that badly at the plate, and with the size of the sample size, we'll never really know the reason Vazquez sucked at the plate. It could be any of these reasons or something else:

1) He just plain sucks on offense at the ML level and always will. After all, his 2016 OPS is only .034 lower than his 2014 OPS- pretty darn close. Maybe it is just "who he is."

2) He just plains sucks at the ML level but will someday improve enough to be capable or decent. His OPS at AAA is .704 this year and .711 over 2 years at AAA. (.731 in AA)

3) His injury affected him more than Sox management expected, and MAYBE, not certainly, he needed more time to recover and find his rhythm on offense.

4) It was all just an ill-timed slump.

 

I don't think anybody knows for sure, if he was "rushed" or not. We do pretty much know Swihart was "rushed" last year. The choices Sox management made this year between these two guys are very complicated and nuanced. I find it hard to be critical on their choices, so far.

 

 

None of knows for sure whether management called up Vazquez before they intended to do so. I strongly believe that they did. I believe that if Swihart had not had a couple of poor defensive games, the Sox would have been more patient in calling up Vaz. JMO, but the phrase "sense of urgency" was thrown around quite a bit by management early in the season.

[Kimmi]

I think they may have left him down a bit longer if Swihart didnt look as bad as he did. His D wasnt even 100% yet, so to think the bat was going to be good was probably wishful thinking. Hes hitting the ball very well in AAA right now and im pretty sure hes still a major part of the Sox plans moving forward.

 

Agreed.

 

I am not trying to knock either catcher. I am a huge fan of defense oriented catchers, so my preference has been Vaz over Swihart. That said, Swihart did an admirable job last season when he was thrown into the fire, and I think he deserved a longer look this year. I also think Vaz would have benefited from more time in AAA.

[moonslav59]

None of knows for sure whether management called up Vazquez before they intended to do so. I strongly believe that they did. I believe that if Swihart had not had a couple of poor defensive games, the Sox would have been more patient in calling up Vaz. JMO, but the phrase "sense of urgency" was thrown around quite a bit by management early in the season.

 

That was my main point: nobody knows.

 

However, it is my opinion that Sox management had in place a plan to bring Vazquez up as the FT catcher, as soon as they felt he was "ready". I put the word ready in quotes, because there are various degrees of being ready. Maybe they felt he was physically ready and defensively ready and felt they could weather an offensive adjustment period.

 

The fact is, Vaz was playing FT at AAA before being called up.

 

I don't think the two bad defensive games by Swihart told management anything they didn't already know, and that was why I feel the plan was always to bring Vaz up as soon as he was deemed ready.

 

Of course teams change timetables and decision-making based on "urgency". The trading for Mirabelli was one example. I just don't see Swiharts defensive troubles early on caused a panic, but it might have made a difference in the timetable. My point was that I do not think Sox management would willingly call Vaz up before they felt he was ready. They saw him playing on the farm and made the choice. I don't think they expected him to hit the ground running with a .700 OPS, but his sub .600 OPS began to force the need for another change. Not going back to Swihart as a catcher at all, once he came back, does show how Sox management felt about his defense, so who knows, maybe it was more about getting Swihart out of there than thinking Vaz was totally ready.

 

I guess they felt he was "ready enough".

 

[southpaw777]

Vaz with some good numbers in AAA .271 .352 .379

His OPS isnt going to be a lot higher than low 700s because hes more a line drive hitter and not much power. If you look at all his minor league numbers, after an adjustment at each level he hit plenty good enough. There was a noticable difference in AA when they asked him to work more on offense since his D was already MLb ready. It frustrates me when everyone says he cant hit. He can and he will...will he be a big offensive guy? No, but he will be a good MLB hitter. Maybe not good enough for some folks, but plenty for me to go along with the elite D, game calling, and framing.

It will be fun to watch Vaz and Leon next year.

[moonslav59]

Vaz with some good numbers in AAA .271 .352 .379

His OPS isnt going to be a lot higher than low 700s because hes more a line drive hitter and not much power. If you look at all his minor league numbers, after an adjustment at each level he hit plenty good enough. There was a noticable difference in AA when they asked him to work more on offense since his D was already MLb ready. It frustrates me when everyone says he cant hit. He can and he will...will he be a big offensive guy? No, but he will be a good MLB hitter. Maybe not good enough for some folks, but plenty for me to go along with the elite D, game calling, and framing.

It will be fun to watch Vaz and Leon next year.

 

Well said. I just can't see Swihart beating out Vaz as the back-up catcher for Leon.

 

[Wade Boggs]

It seems to me that Swihart may be squeezed out. He's prime trade bait I understand ,if they trust Leon to do what he is doing. I might be the only one who wants to give him one more chance.

[moonslav59]

It seems to me that Swihart may be squeezed out. He's prime trade bait I understand ,if they trust Leon to do what he is doing. I might be the only one who wants to give him one more chance.

 

I'm not sure how Swihart's injury affects his trade stock, but if he's not traded this winter, he'll have a shot at earning the catching job or back-up role. Vazquez still has weaknesses and Leon is still not a sure bet. If Swihart plays well, shows he's healthy and improves his defense, he should have a legitimate shot at a meaningful catcher role in 2017. That's three "ifs", but none are unreasonable.

 

I guess if HanRam moves to DH next year, Swihart could try to win the 1B job. I think Beni and Young have LF covered pretty well.

 

I really value Swihart a lot, and I have caught a lot of flack for saying since last year that we should look to trade him as part of a larger package for a very special pitcher.

[Wade Boggs]

I'm not sure how Swihart's injury affects his trade stock, but if he's not traded this winter, he'll have a shot at earning the catching job or back-up role. Vazquez still has weaknesses and Leon is still not a sure bet. If Swihart plays well, shows he's healthy and improves his defense, he should have a legitimate shot at a meaningful catcher role in 2017. That's three "ifs", but none are unreasonable.

 

I guess if HanRam moves to DH next year, Swihart could try to win the 1B job. I think Beni and Young have LF covered pretty well.

 

I really value Swihart a lot, and I have caught a lot of flack for saying since last year that we should look to trade him as part of a larger package for a very special pitcher.

 

Also keep in mind he wasn't the the centerpiece of that Phillies Cole Hammels on and off rumored deal but they wanted him in that deal.They weren't getting MB or XB to go along with it. That was the deal breaker. Hammels would have came here without the 20m option being picked up. But are first base coach was asking for a lot ,don't blame him. But NO way!

[moonslav59]

Also keep in mind he wasn't the the centerpiece of that Phillies Cole Hammels on and off rumored deal but they wanted him in that deal.They weren't getting MB or XB to go along with it. That was the deal breaker. Hammels would have came here without the 20m option being picked up. But are first base coach was asking for a lot ,don't blame him. But NO way!

 

I didn't like the idea of a Hamels trade due to his near FA contractual cost. It just didn't make sense to me to trade many quality prospects for someone getting paid what he was owed. Why not just kick in $10M more and sign Scherzer? Surely $10M a year is worth less than Swihart and whatever they wanted.

 

I was kind of surprised at how little Philly ended up getting, and it did make we wonder what was the minimum they'd have taken from us. Hamels has also pitched better than I expected post-trade.

 

It's too late now, but would the White Sox have taken Espi, Swi and Devers for Quinatan or Sale? Would they have taken Espi, Guerra, Devers and Swi?

 

Rumor was the CWs wanted JBJ. I wonder if they'd have taken an injured swi and JBJ for Sale.

 

We'll probably will never know what the best offer might be for Swi, Devers, Johnson and Owens or Swi, Devers and ERod. Chances are, it wouldn't be enough for me to say yes, but I'm still curious.

 

 

 

[Maxbialystock]

With Vasquez, his hitting was awful. But his receiving was not differentiating ... it might have been fine, but we weren't getting amazing results from the pitchers. I am not blaming him 100%, but noting he was not bringing that much to the party marginally. Leon has outplayed him (and any realistic expectation) by such a degree it's gotta be respected.

 

And who knows? The framing and receiving skills for Vasquez are great, but perhaps the working with pitchers squishy part of it wasn't - and could use more work.

 

I think this is spot on. Vazquez might have stuck in Boston despite his hitting, but in fact his defense was not all that great no matter what people say about his framing and quick throw to 2B. As a corollary to this, Swihart clearly lacked catching skills last year but was our primary catcher because he could hit and the defense wasn't terrible.

 

Right now I would rather have Leon or Holaday as catcher than Vazquez. Leon is much better, for example, at throwing out baserunners. Holaday and Leon both have higher DWAR's than Vazquez and have played in fewer or the same number of games.

 

And then there's the tommy john thing. What's to say it won't go out again?