Sox Pitching Staff Discussion

[User Name]

No one is down playing Koji's accomplishments. He's been one of the best closers the last 4 years and had one of the all time best seasons in '13. We are just pointing out that Paps was and still is an elite closer and that it very much is a valid argument to put him in the conversation of not just the redsoxs best closer ever, but one of the leagues best ever. Of course Mo is N.1, but there's a strong argument for Paps at #2, especially consideringt his dominance in the playoffs

 

He's not an elite closer anymore. You can scream that he is until you're blue in the face, but he just isn't. Like iortiz, you just won't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

[iortiz]

iortiz will never let facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

Which facts? That Papelbon is still closing at great level? or that Koji is getting old and is not longer reliable?

[iortiz]

He's not an elite closer anymore. You can scream that he is until you're blue in the face, but he just isn't. Like iortiz, you just won't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

Everyone here concurs that he is still a great closer. You are the only one here who doesn't let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

Also, Did Pap steal your lunch money when you were a kid? Somehow you just can't stop bitching about him. Let it go and accept it. He is still a great closer.

[Maxbialystock]

Uehara has two qualities I love in a pitcher--a great splitter and a the guts of a jewel thief when it comes to throwing that fastball, which these days is around 86 mph. He probably isn't as good as he was in 2013, but you have to love the way he pitched the 11th today for the save. Personality-wise, he is a lot easier to root for than that dipstick Papelbon even though Papelbon had a helluva track record in Boston (and I guess the Phillies and Nationals).

[Palodios]

High five city.

 

Uehara is a helluva lot more likeable.

[devildavid]

I don't know how you define elite, but Papelbon has had good numbers since leaving the Sox. He is not as good as he was in his prime, but he is still effective. Uehara had a freakishly great season in 2013. He was elite for that season, but Papelbon has a longer track record as a good reliever. Of course Koji started his MLB career at age 34 while Paps started at age 24. Both were elite in certain seasons. Neither one is the equal of Mariano Rivera, if that is the true measure of elite.

 

Papelbon stats

[User Name]

Papelbon was elite for way more than one season, and sustained elite-level production for four seasons to start his career. He then had a mediocre season, a couple of high-tier seasons, but has declined in both his ability to prevent baserunners, strikeout ability, and general peripherals, if not ERA, which is more fluky. Father time catches up with everyone, as Koji's lack of durability (but better bottom-line results) can attest to.

[moonslav59]

Quote Originally Posted by moonslav59 View Post

I'd say calling him a "journeyman" before coming to Boston was downplaying his greatness before 2013.

Attacking his "durability" could also be viewed as unfair "downplaying", although nobody should be calling him an iron man.

Also, Koji has some pretty awesome playoffs numbers as well. He has a 0.875 playoff WHIP and has let up just 3 ERs in 16 IP since his first game in the post season. Papelbon has not been in the playoffs since 2009. He was lights out over his first 25 IP with the Sox. True greatness! No doubt. If it wasn't for 2009, he might be viewed as the best ever in the post season.

 

How many full season does Koji have under his belt as closer? 2? The comparison is silly.

 

I have not ever claimed Uehara is the better closer. I was just responding to the "journeyman" and "durability;ity" comments.

 

When he arrived to Boston, he was not even a closer. In fact in 2013 he was not supposed to be our closer. I remember that they even were in talks to get Papelbon back among others since Bailey and Hanrahan sucked badly.

 

In the meantime they gave a chance to Taz but did not wok out. They also gave a chance to Aceves and did not work either, and then they tried with Koji and the rest is history. Koji was way outstanding and no one in earth saw that coming in 2013. Since then he has not been the same and was expected, he is getting old. This year is older and is not sharp as he used to be.

 

Said that I love what Koji gave us but trying to compare him with one of the best closers of all times is simply unfair and ridiculous just because he had one outstanding year as closer.

 

I don't disagree to a word.

[iortiz]

Mediocre? LOL! SV% above 90+ is not mediocre by any means for a closer. He is paid to save games, and he has been doing that so very well since he left Boston. Plain and simple. How he gets the saves is irrelevant --- and still his metrics are very solid.

 

It doesn't matter how hard you hate Pap or how hard you try to dodge the fact that he is still at great level with semantics.

 

He is still very good, period.

[moonslav59]

I don't know how you define elite, but Papelbon has had good numbers since leaving the Sox. He is not as good as he was in his prime, but he is still effective. Uehara had a freakishly great season in 2013. He was elite for that season, but Papelbon has a longer track record as a good reliever. Of course Koji started his MLB career at age 34 while Paps started at age 24. Both were elite in certain seasons. Neither one is the equal of Mariano Rivera, if that is the true measure of elite.

 

Papelbon stats

 

To me, WHIP is a better gauge of RP'er effectiveness than ERA. K/BB rate is also a good tool for measuring RP'er quality. Koji has had way more than one great season when measured by these numbers:

 

Year WHIP K/BB

2010 0.955 11.0

2011 0.723 11.8

2012 0.639 11.5

2013 0.565 12.2

2014 0.917 11.2

2015 0.917 10.5

 

Fist of all, when viewing Koji's 3 seasons prior to 2013, his trend was indicating a great 2013 season. It doesn't really look like an outlier season.

 

Secondly, Koji's 6 years in a row with a WHIP under 0.920 is fantastic and maybe even unprecedented. I'm not trying to say he was better than Mo, but looking over Mo's numbers, he only had one season with a WHIP below .833 (2008's 0.655). Mo never had more than 4 seasons in a row with a WHIP below 0.950, let alone 0.920. I bring this up only to show perspective- not to claim Koji was better than Mo.

 

Thirdly, Mo had one season with a K/BB rate of 12.83 (2008), but every other season was below 7.50. All but three seasons were below 6.30. Now, with Mo it wasn't about K's, so I'm not trying to belittle Mo. He's clearly the best closer ever. The best RP'er ever. All I'm saying is that Koji's 6 seasons compare with anyone else's.

 

He was not a one year wonder.

Edited May 30, 2016 by moonslav59

[iortiz]

How many full season does Koji have under his belt as closer? 2? The comparison is silly.

 

I have not ever claimed Uehara is the better closer. I was just responding to the "journeyman" and "durability;ity" comments.

 

When he arrived to Boston, he was not even a closer. In fact in 2013 he was not supposed to be our closer. I remember that they even were in talks to get Papelbon back among others since Bailey and Hanrahan sucked badly.

 

In the meantime they gave a chance to Taz but did not wok out. They also gave a chance to Aceves and did not work either, and then they tried with Koji and the rest is history. Koji was way outstanding and no one in earth saw that coming in 2013. Since then he has not been the same and was expected, he is getting old. This year is older and is not sharp as he used to be.

 

Said that I love what Koji gave us but trying to compare him with one of the best closers of all times is simply unfair and ridiculous just because he had one outstanding year as closer.

 

I don't disagree to a word.

 

I think we all agree that Pap is the better and is still great.

 

Regarding his durability, today is a big question mark and thus far he is not having a good year.

 

Do not take me wrong, I love Koji, but as I said in my post #552 we need another young/solid set up reliever who can help Koji. He is not longer reliable due to his age. They need to limit his IPs otherwise his arm will be destroyed.

[User Name]

To me, WHIP is a better gauge of RP'er effectiveness than ERA. K/BB rate is also a good tool for measuring RP'er quality. Koji has had way more than one great season when measured by these numbers:

 

Year WHIP K/BB

2010 0.955 11.0

2011 0.723 11.8

2012 0.639 11.5

2013 0.565 12.2

2014 0.917 11.2

2015 0.917 10.5

 

Fist of all, when viewing Koji's 3 seasons prior to 2013, his trend was indicating a great 2013 season. It doesn't really look like an outlier season.

 

Secondly, Koji's 6 years in a row with a WHIP under 0.920 is fantastic and maybe even unprecedented. I'm not trying to say he was better than Mo, but looking over Mo's numbers, he only had one season with a WHIP below

 

But we must take into consideration that by the time Koji became a full-time MLB pitcher, offensive numbers were a mere shadow of what Mariano (and Papelbon, to a lesser extent) had to face in his prime

[iortiz]

In other order of ideas, Officially David Price settled down and is performing as expected.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

Sorry that Rivera's "prime" lasted more than 4 seasons.

[User Name]

Sorry that Rivera's "prime" lasted more than 4 seasons.

 

What a cop-out.

[iortiz]

Said that IMO the rotation seems like this:

 

1. Price

2. Wright

3. Porcello

4 E-Rod.

5. ?

 

Kelly needs to go to the Pen and join Clay.

 

Assuming that Kelly goes to the pen and somehow both settle down there, we are not going to need another reliever. We only are going to need another solid SP who can reinforce the rotation to face the POs.

 

Said that, the $1,000,000 question will be, what type of profile should we pursuit? a young top-tier controlled-cost arm or a solid 2nd-tier type who can eat innings and won't cost us a haul of prospects?

Edited May 30, 2016 by iortiz

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

What a cop-out.

 

No, just a fact.

 

I can see how facts escape you after reading your posts.

[User Name]

No, just a fact.

 

I can see how facts escape you after reading your posts.

 

You cannot be this stupid, therefore you have to be trolling.

[CliffKlowers]

The moderator is on vacation so we will have to live with the Babe. Humor him but don't take him seriously. He doesn't.

[Jasonbay44]

Said that IMO the rotation seems like this:

 

1. Price

2. Wright

3. Porcello

4 E-Rod.

5. ?

 

Kelly needs to go to the Pen and join Clay.

 

Assuming that Kelly goes to the pen and somehow both settle down there, we are not going to need another reliever. We only are going to need another solid SP who can reinforce the rotation to face the POs.

 

Said that, the $1,000,000 question will be, what type of profile should we pursuit? a young top-tier controlled-cost arm or a solid 2nd-tier type who can eat innings and won't cost us a haul of prospects?

I think that even if we move both Buchholz and Kelly to the pen, we may still need to pick up another late inning bullpen arm. Uehara has durability concerns and Farrell seems intent on using him as much as possible. + do we really want to see guys like Hembree and Buchholz pitching in 1 run/tied games late, like we had today?

 

Not a knock on Hembree, I actually like him, but I just don't think he's more then a solid middle reliever.

[iortiz]

I think that even if we move both Buchholz and Kelly to the pen, we may still need to pick up another late inning bullpen arm. Uehara has durability concerns and Farrell seems intent on using him as much as possible. + do we really want to see guys like Hembree and Buchholz pitching in 1 run/tied games late, like we had today?

 

Not a knock on Hembree, I actually like him, but I just don't think he's more then a solid middle reliever.

What about Francisco Rodriguez? IMO DET is not going anywhere this season.

 

...and what 'about the SP? any idea?

[Jasonbay44]

What about Francisco Rodriguez? IMO DET is not going anywhere this season.

 

...and what 'about the SP? any idea?

K-Rod would be a nice get, but wasn't he insistent on wanting to close?

 

A reliever I'd think would be a good idea and probably wouldn't cost too much is Fernando Rodney. He's 39 and he's on the Padres who aren't going anywhere, so he probably is available and wouldn't cost too much. He has been one of the better RP in baseball this year and I think is a guy Sox should look at. I know he's inconsistent from year to year, but he's in the midst of one of his "good" seasons.

 

As for SP, I'm really not sure whose available. I know we mentioned James Shields and I'd be all for that, but I'm starting to think asking price is too high at the moment, as every time it sounds like he's going to be dealt, talks fall apart, which it appears is happening right now with Chicago. But based on whats available, I think a guy like Shields is much more likely then a top of the rotation starter as I just don't see one being available for a reasonable price.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

You cannot be this stupid, therefore you have to be trolling.

 

Are you sure you are not a wimp?

 

Your posts sure do appear wimpish.

[TedWilliams101]

He's not an elite closer anymore. You can scream that he is until you're blue in the face, but he just isn't. Like iortiz, you just won't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

 

He's 35, so of course he is going to be on the tail end of his career and not in his prime, but so is Koji. If you want to take about the last 4 or 5 seasons, I don't know how you don't put Papelbon in the group of elite closers. There's Melancon, Kimbrel, Uehara, Casilla, Jansen, Britton, and Papelbon. There's really it that have put together consistently elite seasons as a closer in the last 4/5 years. Again, Papelbon is going to eventually start fading, but he's still in the small group of closers that has shown consistent greatness over many seasons and is in that elite group. Just because he's on the tail end doesn't mean he's not elite. It just means the end is inevitable where as Kimbrel, Britton, etc are still in their prime. Papelbon might not put up top 5 stats every year, but he pretty much guarantees a solid year at worst, which IMO is the definition of elite.

[iortiz]

K-Rod would be a nice get, but wasn't he insistent on wanting to close?

 

A reliever I'd think would be a good idea and probably wouldn't cost too much is Fernando Rodney. He's 39 and he's on the Padres who aren't going anywhere, so he probably is available and wouldn't cost too much. He has been one of the better RP in baseball this year and I think is a guy Sox should look at. I know he's inconsistent from year to year, but he's in the midst of one of his "good" seasons.

 

As for SP, I'm really not sure whose available. I know we mentioned James Shields and I'd be all for that, but I'm starting to think asking price is too high at the moment, as every time it sounds like he's going to be dealt, talks fall apart, which it appears is happening right now with Chicago. But based on whats available, I think a guy like Shields is much more likely then a top of the rotation starter as I just don't see one being available for a reasonable price.

 

Yeah, Rodney could be a nice addition, he shouldn't cost that much and he knows how to pitch in the ALE.

 

As for Shield, it is a name I've been saying that we should have signed when he hit the FA. He is still very solid and also knows how to pitch in the AL.

 

Other name could be Zimmermann, he could be a nice addition as well.

Edited May 30, 2016 by iortiz

[mvp 78]

Are you sure you are not a wimp?

 

Your posts sure do appear wimpish.

 

He's the juggernaut.

[User Name]

He's 35, so of course he is going to be on the tail end of his career and not in his prime, but so is Koji. If you want to take about the last 4 or 5 seasons, I don't know how you don't put Papelbon in the group of elite closers. There's Melancon, Kimbrel, Uehara, Casilla, Jansen, Britton, and Papelbon. There's really it that have put together consistently elite seasons as a closer in the last 4/5 years. Again, Papelbon is going to eventually start fading, but he's still in the small group of closers that has shown consistent greatness over many seasons and is in that elite group. Just because he's on the tail end doesn't mean he's not elite. It just means the end is inevitable where as Kimbrel, Britton, etc are still in their prime. Papelbon might not put up top 5 stats every year, but he pretty much guarantees a solid year at worst, which IMO is the definition of elite.

 

I don't put him in the group of elite closers, because his performance is not elite anymore, simple as that. And you clearly don't understand the definition of elite. Elite isn't a guy who guarantees a "solid" year, it's a guy who guarantees upper echelon (top 5, at worse) run prevention and baserunner prevention numbers: Kimbrel, Chapman, Davis, Miller (even if now SU man), Jansen. Longevity has little to do with it.

Edited May 30, 2016 by User Name?

[User Name]

Are you sure you are not a wimp?

 

Your posts sure do appear wimpish.

 

I would take this a lot more seriously if it didn't come from a clear troll, because trolls are bitches by definition.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

I would take this a lot more seriously if it didn't come from a clear troll, because trolls are bitches by definition.

 

I will defer to your knowledge about bitches since you seem to be the Queen Bee.

[TheBabeStrikesBack]

He's the juggernaut.

 

Lol, it's quite obvious.