Referendum on John Farrell

[Dojji]

Dojji, you are just flat out, unequivocally wrong. In a "one run for the other team wins the game" type of situation you bring out your relievers in reverse order of quality. You are holding on for dear life, not preparing for a save situation.

 

Fine. Then bring Britton out on the bottom of the 9th, which I've always said was the conventional move, and he's gone by the 11th anyway. It's Not. That. Big. A. Factor.

[User Name]

It really is, because it keeps Ubaldo Jimenez out of the game. You're trying to defend the indefensible.

[Dojji]

But it doesn't keep Ubaldo Jimenez out of the game, at the very best it delays his advent.

[S5Dewey]

Your choices are "Britton pitches the bottom of the 9th and is unavailable by the 11th inning" and "Britton pitches only when the Orioles take the lead." If you're taking the "all hands on deck" strategy, Britton is out of the game by the 11th and Jimenez is probably still pitching when Encarnacion comes up. It's a fallacy to assume that Britton was going to be used in the 11th unless the O's took the lead. The fact that he was even available to be used in the 11th is a direct result of the very decision you're criticising.

 

And I do want you to consider that carefully. You've got your long man on in a tie game. You've already burnt your entire pen. The best possible result here is that Britton gets through that inning and preserves the tie, and if that's the case, who the hell pitches the 12th? The game is still tied. Your bats have not broken the tie in the last 7 innings, it's unrealistically optimistic to assume they'll magically do so next inning and like I said, you've already burnt through your entire stable of relievers and long guys. Your closer might be game for it but how many 2 inning performances has he given all year? Can't be more than a handful, if any at all. So who the hell do you warm if the game keeps going and you can't break the tie in the 12th? Gonna bring a starter in, and all the issues that might generate down the road, not to mention the potential for injury in bringing anyone out in a role they're unfamiliar with (see also: Wright, Steven)? This is the question facing Showalter in the bottom of the 11th, and it's not an easy one.

 

Once Jimenez came out there, he had to stay out there until the tie broke one way or the other, because he was the long man and only the closer and the rest of the starters were behind him. Now arguably they should have used Britton on the bottom of the 9th to take that one extra inning away from the long man, but even if they did, Jimenez would still be out there in the 11th, the entire difference would have been that Jimenez would not also have pitched the 10th.

 

I just do not see at all how the decision to not use Britton in the bottom of the 9th, which is the only inning Showalter would have ever used Britton without a lead, makes the huge difference people are crediting it with.

 

But this is all based in hindsight. I'm fairly certain that had Schowalter known what was going to happen he would have done things differently. It was obvious that being the visiting team he was waiting until the O's got the lead to use Britton to seal the win. IMO it was a testament to the respect he has for the Jay's offense.

 

It was a crap shoot either way. Do you burn up your closer early in extra innings and then have nothing left if you don't score while he's in there? Or do you hold him off until you get the lead and then use him, risking a walk-off in the bottom of an inning?

 

Disclosure... were I been in Schowalter's shoes I would have used Britton earlier, probably in the 9th & as far into the 10th as he could go, but it most likely wouldn't have changed the outcome of the game.

[Kimmi]

But it doesn't keep Ubaldo Jimenez out of the game, at the very best it delays his advent.

 

If Britton had been brought in earlier, then the Os managed to take the lead, then Ubaldo was needed to close the game and blew it, Buck would have been criticized for not saving Britton for the close situation.

 

I think that Britton should have been brought into the game once Ubaldo had a 1st and 3rd situation, but as you said, there is far too much blame and weight being put on that one decision.

[User Name]

You bring Britton for the 9th and 10th after using Brach to get through the 8th, and you have one of the toughest right-on-right relievers in all of baseball to handle the righty-heavy Toronto lineup with Duensing waiting in the wings in case a tough lefty matchup shows up.

[User Name]

Trying to save your best reliever for a "save situation" when your season hangs in the balance is stupid, plain and simple.

[Bellhorn04]

Any way you slice it, it's sheer madness at that point in the game, with the season on the line and the Jays best hitters coming up, to put it in the hands of guy with a 5.5 ERA when there's a guy with a 0.5 ERA ready to go.

[User Name]

Any way you slice it, it's sheer madness at that point in the game, with the season on the line and the Jays best hitters coming up, to put it in the hands of guy with a 5.5 ERA when there's a guy with a 0.5 ERA ready to go.

 

Common sense, folks.

[S5Dewey]

If Britton had been brought in earlier, then the Os managed to take the lead, then Ubaldo was needed to close the game and blew it, Buck would have been criticized for not saving Britton for the close situation.

 

I think that Britton should have been brought into the game once Ubaldo had a 1st and 3rd situation, but as you said, there is far too much blame and weight being put on that one decision.

 

^^^ THIS^^^

And even this assumes that Britton wouldn't have given up a fly ball or a grounder through a drawn-in infield. But bringing him in then was the thing that should have happened. And I don't understand why it didn't.

 

Actually given the situation I would have brought Britton in when the first runner reached base, but that's another story.

[Kimmi]

Any way you slice it, it's sheer madness at that point in the game, with the season on the line and the Jays best hitters coming up, to put it in the hands of guy with a 5.5 ERA when there's a guy with a 0.5 ERA ready to go.

 

I don't disagree with that. I've always felt that the real 'save' situation in a game often comes in the 7th or 8th inning, and that a closer should be brought into those situations, if necessary.

 

My point is that blaming the loss on Showalter, and mind you, I can't stand the guy, is unfair. While it seems like a bad decision to most of us, it's really only bad in hindsight. Before the inning, the effect of the decision was very small. I know that statement is not going to go over well.

[Bellhorn04]

^^^ THIS^^^

And even this assumes that Britton wouldn't have given up a fly ball or a grounder through a drawn-in infield. But bringing him in then was the thing that should have happened. And I don't understand why it didn't.

 

Actually given the situation I would have brought Britton in when the first runner reached base, but that's another story.

 

Certainly worth considering, when the fellow at the plate hit 37 long balls this year and the fellow on deck had 42.

[Bellhorn04]

Before the inning, the effect of the decision was very small. I know that statement is not going to go over well.

 

That implies that the chances of Jimenez being scored on and the chances of Britton being scored on were roughly equal.

[Kimmi]

That implies that the chances of Jimenez being scored on and the chances of Britton being scored on were roughly equal.

 

In do or die situations, the impact becomes larger. However, the win expectancy difference, before the inning occurs, between bringing in Jimenez versus Britton is not as large as you would think.

 

On top of that, think of all the other plays and decisions that occurred throughout the course of the game. The outcome of the game cannot be pinned on that one decision.

[Bellhorn04]

In do or die situations, the impact becomes larger. However, the win expectancy difference, before the inning occurs, between bringing in Jimenez versus Britton is not as large as you would think.

 

On top of that, think of all the other plays and decisions that occurred throughout the course of the game. The outcome of the game cannot be pinned on that one decision.

 

I get that. And by the same token, 2003 can't be pinned on Grady. But when people think of these games, forever and ever, those decisions will be the first thing they think of. Including Grady and Showalter, I daresay.

[sk7326]

I don't disagree with that. I've always felt that the real 'save' situation in a game often comes in the 7th or 8th inning, and that a closer should be brought into those situations, if necessary.

 

My point is that blaming the loss on Showalter, and mind you, I can't stand the guy, is unfair. While it seems like a bad decision to most of us, it's really only bad in hindsight. Before the inning, the effect of the decision was very small. I know that statement is not going to go over well.

 

You can never blame a loss on a manager - since Ubaldo could have gotten him out. But this was a one game season - and instead of managing to get him a save, you need to take the best reliever in the league (if you believe he is) and deploy him to keep the game going. Nobody would have blamed him for burning Britton for the 9th and 10th and then seeing what happens. This was not an ordinary time. Showalter's decision uncontroversially lowered their probability of escaping that situation. In terms of doing his job, Showalter blew it.

[sk7326]

I get that. And by the same token, 2003 can't be pinned on Grady. But when people think of these games, forever and ever, those decisions will be the first thing they think of. Including Grady and Showalter, I daresay.

 

And as noted before, with Grady it was the 2nd TIME THAT POSTSEASON he tried to ride Pedro much too far.

[Dojji]

Hard not to understand the temptation Grady was under. The bullpen that year was extremely questionable.

[Bellhorn04]

Hard not to understand the temptation Grady was under. The bullpen that year was extremely questionable.

 

Timlin and Embree had both been pitching well for a while though. And if the reports are accurate, in the pre-game preparations Grady was told he had to get Pedro out of there at 105 pitches or thereabouts because of what the stats showed about his diminished effectiveness. Grady decided to be a cowboy.

[Spudboy]

Timlin and Embree had both been pitching well for a while though. And if the reports are accurate, in the pre-game preparations Grady was told he had to get Pedro out of there at 105 pitches or thereabouts because of what the stats showed about his diminished effectiveness. Grady decided to be a cowboy.

 

Pedro was getting hit hard the previous inning. Loud outs and high pitch count.

 

Grady f***ed up. Believing anything else is revisionist.

[Dojji]

Oh yeah agreed, he deserved to get fired because he ignored his instructions and got burned by it, and cost the team a trip to the World Series as a result, but if you don't take a second to see the other side in these things you wind up living the life of a hater, I don't want to go there.

[sk7326]

Timlin and Embree had both been pitching well for a while though. And if the reports are accurate, in the pre-game preparations Grady was told he had to get Pedro out of there at 105 pitches or thereabouts because of what the stats showed about his diminished effectiveness. Grady decided to be a cowboy.

 

Williamson had settled in as the closer at this point too

[sk7326]

Oh yeah agreed, he deserved to get fired because he ignored his instructions and got burned by it, and cost the team a trip to the World Series as a result, but if you don't take a second to see the other side in these things you wind up living the life of a hater, I don't want to go there.

 

I think the Game 5 experience vs Oakland should have been the alarm

[Spudboy]

Oh yeah agreed, he deserved to get fired because he ignored his instructions and got burned by it, and cost the team a trip to the World Series as a result, but if you don't take a second to see the other side in these things you wind up living the life of a hater, I don't want to go there.

 

Who's hating on Grady?

 

He f***ed up and got canned. He probably was not a good choice to manage this team in the first place.

[Spudboy]

Dombrowski just told the media that Farrell will be back in 2017.

 

Good.

[Bellhorn04]

And as noted before, with Grady it was the 2nd TIME THAT POSTSEASON he tried to ride Pedro much too far.

 

One interesting footnote was that Francona went ahead and did the same thing in 2004 ALCS Game 5, but got away with it.

[mvp 78]

Timlin and Embree had both been pitching well for a while though. And if the reports are accurate, in the pre-game preparations Grady was told he had to get Pedro out of there at 105 pitches or thereabouts because of what the stats showed about his diminished effectiveness. Grady decided to be a cowboy.

 

Williamson had pitched well down the stretch that year too.

[mvp 78]

Dombrowski just told the media that Farrell will be back in 2017.

 

Good.

 

The team won the division. I'm told over and over again on here that the playoffs a crapshoot. I'll just write the sweep off to dumb luck.

 

I'm fine with Farrell coming back. He's a mediocre manager who rides tremendous highs and lows with this team (maybe that's due to the team's age more than anything).

[Slasher9]

Dombrowski just told the media that Farrell will be back in 2017.

 

Good.

 

DD knows not to hold JF responsible for the debacle known as the "retirement tour".....

Dude deserves an extension for even making it to the postseason with that distraction surrounding all his players......

[d-money]

Not a fan of farrell but whateva. A couple of more months before pitchers and catchers.