A Realistic View at 2016

[Emp9]

1) No they wouldn't. Stop making stuff up.

 

2) No they wouldn't. Stop making stuff up.

 

3) Golf is a sport because it requires a lot of skill.

 

I don't consider Golf a sport. To me a Sport has to have offense & defense. Chess is a Sport. Golf is not. The obvious argument against this view is that in Golf, the course itself is the defense. I still say no. I'm talking about active defense from an actual opponent, not passive defense derived from your environment. A Sport can be a Game, and a Game can be a Sport, but Golf is simply a game.

[Bellhorn04]

I don't consider Golf a sport. To me a Sport has to have offense & defense. Chess is a Sport. Golf is not. The obvious argument against this view is that in Golf, the course itself is the defense. I still say no. I'm talking about active defense from an actual opponent, not passive defense derived from your environment. A Sport can be a Game, and a Game can be a Sport, but Golf is simply a game.

 

Watch the Ryder Cup sometime and tell me golf isn't a sport. No less than Michael Jordan says it's his favorite single sporting event.

[Bellhorn04]

Yes, and I'm fine with that angle, since I was referring to Papi's physical issues.

 

I still think injuries are more likely in the NBA, especially if you are not in good shape.

 

I think a significant amount of baseball injuries are due to the fact that players do not need to be in good shape to be good at it, so they tweek hammies and backs, and groins, and...

 

But players who are in good physical shape also get a myriad of injuries. I don't think anyone ever suggested guys like Fred Lynn or Dustin Pedroia or Ellsbury or Teixeira get a lot of injuries because they're out of shape.

[Emp9]

Watch the Ryder Cup sometime and tell me golf isn't a sport. No less than Michael Jordan says it's his favorite single sporting event.

 

Does the Ryder Cup have charging linebackers? How 'bout a person with a tennis racket waiting in front of the green? No you say? Look, Golf is a fine game, but for technical reasons I don't think its an actual sport.

[Bellhorn04]

Does the Ryder Cup have charging linebackers? How 'bout a person with a tennis racket waiting in front of the green? No you say? Look, Golf is a fine game, but for technical reasons I don't think its an actual sport.

 

If you need a defense for it to be a sport I guess track and field, swimming and skating and skiing are out too. Darn, that's really going to take some of the buzz out of the Olympics.

[Emp9]

If you need a defense for it to be a sport I guess track and field, swimming and skating and skiing are out too. Darn, that's really going to take some of the buzz out of the Olympics.

 

Right. They aren't sports. They're not even games. They're activities. Athletic Activities.

Edited June 7, 2016 by Emp9

[Hugh2]

I think there is a bit of misalignment in what we are exactly arguing here. I'm no "expert" but I would easily argue I probably know much more than the average person when it comes to anatomy, physiology, human performance, kinesiology etc etc. I know enough to know when people generally don't know what they are talking about and as I said before this was...sort of my field for some time.

 

Saying something is "physically demanding" and something creates "wear and tear" over time are in no way perfectly analogous and that is what I sense on one side of the argument. So therefore that argument is invalid.

 

If we were comparing how hard jobs were, and how much they physically required would anyone consider sitting at a desk as a lawyer, accountant, or data analysts a "tough" job? no you wouldn't. But that person could be subjected to tons of physical problems due to the wear and tear of every day life. Carpal tunnel, scapular imbalances, poor posture which could lead to back issues, shoulder impingement etc etc. Let me lay out an example, lets say I sit at my computer every day 8 hours a day writing on forums like this talking about baseball. This is NOT physically demanding, but yet it is creating wear and tear. The action of typing causes my scapula to protract forward which causes my pectoral and shoulder muscles to tighten and the muscles in my shoulder blades that stabilize the scapula such as the Rhomboids and the Serratus Anterior become weaker leaving one susceptible to other injuries and problems. My experiences in life have led me to effectively be able to just look at someones posture and tell if they sit in front of a computer all day. People who fit this description tend to have weaker shoulders and more rotator cuff injuries. Their job day in and day out is VERY easy physically yet over time can cause serious physical problems. I'm pretty sure if you went and asked a surgeon who fixes rotator cuffs who he sees in his office more than anyone else he would say it's people who sit at their computers all day.....Get it????

 

Just because the act of playing baseball might require less physical activity doesn't mean it can't cause considerable wear and tear. Just because David Ortiz doesn't play Football doesn't mean he should easily be able to play a few more years with no wear and tear and risk of injury that could effect him the rest of his life. Also, you HAVE TO look at this on a case by case basis. One of moons lists says boxing is the most physically demanding sports, I would agree with this as I was an amateur boxer and kick boxer for 10 years. Yet it can also be a very mature sport as some of the very best boxers in our lifetimes have fought well into their 40's. Despite how physically demanding it is, it really is a thinking mans game.

 

My main gripe in here has been the narrative that because of the position David Ortiz plays he should be able to play into his 40's. The reality is, no matter how physically demanding the sport may or may not be we have zero ideal how he would hold up for another year or 3. We have zero ideal how much his feet, Achilles, shoulder, his knees are hurting him no matter what his performance level may be. Even if he could play another 1-4 years we have no ideal for how much longer he could be productive and to think that it might not take a considerable toll on his body, and the quality of his life for the next 20-40 years is very ignorant. And the decision to weight the cost vs. benefit of playing for one more year vs the toll it could take on his body and quality of life is his alone. If he wants to retire, then I respect that decision and if ANYTHING that might be the closest thing we have to clue on how he's actually feeling and how much the daily grind is getting to him. He wants to retire after this year, and I don't care if he hits 100 home runs this year, that should tell you something.

Edited June 7, 2016 by A Red Sox fan named Hugh

[Hugh2]

All good things must come to an end....let the man leave in peace. You can never replace a guy like Ortiz, but the offense will be fine without him. Use that money on pitching, this team is one elite starter away from being a playoff contender for years to come. IMO.

[Slasher9]

Are you an "expert"? Don't answer, it's a rhetorical question. So what makes your opinion more valid again?

 

list your 4 in order then. you got baseball first? NHL last?

[Slasher9]

NHL

NFL

NBA

MLB

 

which one of those sports can a man in the shape (and that shape is a circle) of Bartolo Colon play at a high level in?

[Bellhorn04]

Right. They aren't sports. They're not even games. They're activities. Athletic Activities.

 

You're blissfully ignoring the key component of 'competition' that separates sports from activities.

[southpaw777]

I think there is a bit of misalignment in what we are exactly arguing here. I'm no "expert" but I would easily argue I probably know much more than the average person when it comes to anatomy, physiology, human performance, kinesiology etc etc. I know enough to know when people generally don't know what they are talking about and as I said before this was...sort of my field for some time.

 

Saying something is "physically demanding" and something creates "wear and tear" over time are in no way perfectly analogous and that is what I sense on one side of the argument. So therefore that argument is invalid.

 

If we were comparing how hard jobs were, and how much they physically required would anyone consider sitting at a desk as a lawyer, accountant, or data analysts a "tough" job? no you wouldn't. But that person could be subjected to tons of physical problems due to the wear and tear of every day life. Carpal tunnel, scapular imbalances, poor posture which could lead to back issues, shoulder impingement etc etc. Let me lay out an example, lets say I sit at my computer every day 8 hours a day writing on forums like this talking about baseball. This is NOT physically demanding, but yet it is creating wear and tear. The action of typing causes my scapula to protract forward which causes my pectoral and shoulder muscles to tighten and the muscles in my shoulder blades that stabilize the scapula such as the Rhomboids and the Serratus Anterior become weaker leaving one susceptible to other injuries and problems. My experiences in life have led me to effectively be able to just look at someones posture and tell if they sit in front of a computer all day. People who fit this description tend to have weaker shoulders and more rotator cuff injuries. Their job day in and day out is VERY easy physically yet over time can cause serious physical problems. I'm pretty sure if you went and asked a surgeon who fixes rotator cuffs who he sees in his office more than anyone else he would say it's people who sit at their computers all day.....Get it????

 

Just because the act of playing baseball might require less physical activity doesn't mean it can't cause considerable wear and tear. Just because David Ortiz doesn't play Football doesn't mean he should easily be able to play a few more years with no wear and tear and risk of injury that could effect him the rest of his life. Also, you HAVE TO look at this on a case by case basis. One of moons lists says boxing is the most physically demanding sports, I would agree with this as I was an amateur boxer and kick boxer for 10 years. Yet it can also be a very mature sport as some of the very best boxers in our lifetimes have fought well into their 40's. Despite how physically demanding it is, it really is a thinking mans game.

 

My main gripe in here has been the narrative that because of the position David Ortiz plays he should be able to play into his 40's. The reality is, no matter how physically demanding the sport may or may not be we have zero ideal how he would hold up for another year or 3. We have zero ideal how much his feet, Achilles, shoulder, his knees are hurting him no matter what his performance level may be. Even if he could play another 1-4 years we have no ideal for how much longer he could be productive and to think that it might not take a considerable toll on his body, and the quality of his life for the next 20-40 years is very ignorant. And the decision to weight the cost vs. benefit of playing for one more year vs the toll it could take on his body and quality of life is his alone. If he wants to retire, then I respect that decision and if ANYTHING that might be the closest thing we have to clue on how he's actually feeling and how much the daily grind is getting to him. He wants to retire after this year, and I don't care if he hits 100 home runs this year, that should tell you something.

 

And this is exactly why i would refer to you on BDC with these matters.

This whole arguement started by Moon stating A DH is not physically demanding and downplaying the MLB "grind". Also comparing it to youth sports and beer league softball...ugh...

Well, I have a few friends that have played Milb as well as overseas...the reason I got a bit pissed is because ive seen and talked to my friends about the lifestyle, dedication, both physically and mentally, and the sacrifices these guys make.

This conversation took a few turns after that and ended up as a "which sport is the most demanding" conversation. Some goalposts were moved, but bottom line is no matter what position you play in MLB, 162 regular season games, and maybe another 20 or so with playoffs and WS ( if applicable), ST, offseason workouts, media, family, charities, etc., is a friggin grind. To downplay that is pure ignorance.

[Hugh2]

NHL

NFL

NBA

MLB

 

which one of those sports can a man in the shape (and that shape is a circle) of Bartolo Colon play at a high level in?

 

I don't understand what this is trying to prove. Just because a sport requires more physical fitness or is "physically more demanding" doesn't mean it causes more wear and tear. You may be 100% right in what you're saying but that doesn't mean someone like Bartolo Colon doesn't have significant wear and tear that might not significantly change the quality of his life in 5-15 years from now. We just don't know.

 

And conversely even if a sport on average produced much less wear and tear it doesn't mean none would be there, and it certainly doesn't mean that significant wear and tear might be there. Every person is different, every body is different, and even if you took two completely identical athletes over time the motions and injuries they accumulate would create different levels of wear and tear through out the ages. Even if you took two identical athletes and gave them the same job with the same work load the wear and tear could be 100% different.

 

Player A could have a job that is 50% less physically demanding than player B, Player A could also have a much better career and yet still have much more wear and tear. If player A spent 1 year playing through more injury than player B at age 25 that could effect the amount of wear and tear on the body the proceeding 15 years. You guys are looking at this argument all wrong, we realistically have zero ideal how much wear and tear David Ortiz may have. We know he's played the sport a long time, we also know he's accumulated injuries and we also know he's played through injuries (which is insightful here)

 

If anything, the fact that he wants to retire....should shed some perspective on the issue as well.

[Hugh2]

And this is exactly why i would refer to you on BDC with these matters.

This whole arguement started by Moon stating A DH is not physically demanding and downplaying the MLB "grind". Also comparing it to youth sports and beer league softball...ugh...

Well, I have a few friends that have played Milb as well as overseas...the reason I got a bit pissed is because ive seen and talked to my friends about the lifestyle, dedication, both physically and mentally, and the sacrifices these guys make.

This conversation took a few turns after that and ended up as a "which sport is the most demanding" conversation. Some goalposts were moved, but bottom line is no matter what position you play in MLB, 162 regular season games, and maybe another 20 or so with playoffs and WS ( if applicable), ST, offseason workouts, media, family, charities, etc., is a friggin grind. To downplay that is pure ignorance.

 

Exactly, I think some goal posts were moved, perhaps on both sides but I think the original point that David Ortiz should be able to play a few more years just because he is a DH is generally invalid. Whether or not his position is generally less physically demanding than another is truly irrelevant.

 

I also want to point out that the BDC posters that I'm disagreeing with in here are some of my favorite posters from BDC who I generally admire and agree with. I just happen to think they are in the wrong here....I argue in peace.

[Slasher9]

I don't understand what this is trying to prove. Just because a sport requires more physical fitness or is "physically more demanding" doesn't mean it causes more wear and tear. You may be 100% right in what you're saying but that doesn't mean someone like Bartolo Colon doesn't have significant wear and tear that might not significantly change the quality of his life in 5-15 years from now. We just don't know.

 

And conversely even if a sport on average produced much less wear and tear it doesn't mean none would be there, and it certainly doesn't mean that significant wear and tear might be there. Every person is different, every body is different, and even if you took two completely identical athletes over time the motions and injuries they accumulate would create different levels of wear and tear through out the ages. Even if you took two identical athletes and gave them the same job with the same work load the wear and tear could be 100% different.

 

Player A could have a job that is 50% less physically demanding than player B, Player A could also have a much better career and yet still have much more wear and tear. If player A spent 1 year playing through more injury than player B at age 25 that could effect the amount of wear and tear on the body the proceeding 15 years. You guys are looking at this argument all wrong, we realistically have zero ideal how much wear and tear David Ortiz may have. We know he's played the sport a long time, we also know he's accumulated injuries and we also know he's played through injuries (which is insightful here)

 

If anything, the fact that he wants to retire....should shed some perspective on the issue as well.

 

i understand what you are saying and i agree with you. absolutely the long season causes wear and tear. no doubt that many, many MLB players are very much "athletic". my point in defending Moons original point was that of the 4 major sports...you can last in MLB in less than stellar physical shape. the other 3 sports will not "allow" that.

NBA: average player is 6' 7'' tall, weights 218 lbs and is 26.9 years old.

NFL: average age 26

NHL: 26

MLB: 29

 

The average playing career for an NFL players is 3.5 years, the average MLB career is 5.6 years, the average NBA career is 4.8 years, and the average NHL career is 5.5 years.

[Slasher9]

injury % rate (reported injuries):

NFL - 4.85

Basketball - 1.85

baseball - 1.31

hockey - 0.57

 

my guess is that most of those hockey dudes dont report their injuries.....

[Hugh2]

i understand what you are saying and i agree with you. absolutely the long season causes wear and tear. no doubt that many, many MLB players are very much "athletic". my point in defending Moons original point was that of the 4 major sports...you can last in MLB in less than stellar physical shape. the other 3 sports will not "allow" that.

NBA: average player is 6' 7'' tall, weights 218 lbs and is 26.9 years old.

NFL: average age 26

NHL: 26

MLB: 29

 

The average playing career for an NFL players is 3.5 years, the average MLB career is 5.6 years, the average NBA career is 4.8 years, and the average NHL career is 5.5 years.

 

I understand what this data is telling us, I just don't see how it means David Ortiz should easily be able to play more or that he doesn't nor will accumulate more wear and tear. This is an analyst of one player not every athlete in every sport in the aggregate. Between 20 MLB years and several years in the minors Ortiz has about 6 years of playing time compared to the average NFL player so the capacity for more wear and tear is there. Some players can play for 20 years, some sustain injuries they can't recover from and play no more than 3-4 years whether it is football, baseball, or hockey. Every player, every case is different...and if you've played through injury then the wear an tear your own body endures follows a different formula.

 

But like I said before the difficulty of a sport, or generally how much wear and tear it creates is really irrelevant here. We are talking about one guy, not what happens to the entire population on average. Whether or not Ortiz could play another year is irrelevant, he likely has a ton of wear and tear and the degree to how much that will impede him going forward (in life in general) is yet to be known. No matter how much easier baseball is to play, or how fat you can be and still play it does nothing to change that that is a fact that could be a huge contribution to David Ortiz wanting to retire.

[Emp9]

You're blissfully ignoring the key component of 'competition' that separates sports from activities.

 

'Athletic Competition' then. Yeah... I like that.

[jacksonianmarch]

The average age thing is very misleading. Most of the other sports draft right into the big leagues. Baseball has at least a three year minor league stint even for the best players. Also, baseball has the highest crap out rate due both to ineffectiveness and injury. The guys who come through are usually pretty healthy and are already good at what they do. Their on the job big league training is typically small.

[Hugh2]

injury % rate (reported injuries):

NFL - 4.85

Basketball - 1.85

baseball - 1.31

hockey - 0.57

 

my guess is that most of those hockey dudes dont report their injuries.....

 

So if I wanted to look at things from the other side of the argument (which I'm not) then I could infer from this Data that Ortiz has been 62% more likely to be injured than the average football player because he's played 6 years to 1 year on average compared to the average football player.

[Slasher9]

So if I wanted to look at things from the other side of the argument (which I'm not) then I could infer from this Data that Ortiz has been 62% more likely to be injured than the average football player because he's played 6 years to 1 year on average compared to the average football player.

 

i look at it this way. David Ortiz is a beast. he is IMO the greatest Red Sox player of all time. all time. he is having one of his greatest seasons ever in his final year. i love it. im not sure i even want him to come back next year. this is shaping up to be the perfect ending for a perfect career. but in no way, shape, or form could the current David Ortiz play any of the other 3 sports.

Baseball? he is an All Star this season. even with only being able to jog to first and have chronic foot/heel pain.

[Slasher9]

The average age thing is very misleading. Most of the other sports draft right into the big leagues. Baseball has at least a three year minor league stint even for the best players. Also, baseball has the highest crap out rate due both to ineffectiveness and injury. The guys who come through are usually pretty healthy and are already good at what they do. Their on the job big league training is typically small.

i really dont think you can make it to any professional level without being "good at what they do".

football minor leagues = 3 years of mandatory college ball.

NHL - has minor league system.

NBA - 12 man teams. these are the best of the best whether you are 19 (only 1 year of mandatory college) or 22 (graduating red shirted player).....

MLB - many teenagers signed. they spend their "college" years in the minors. as with the other 3 sports only the best of the best will reach the top level (majors). MLB is the only of the 4 major sports where you can have a 30 year old rookie who finally "makes it".

[Hugh2]

i look at it this way. David Ortiz is a beast. he is IMO the greatest Red Sox player of all time. all time. he is having one of his greatest seasons ever in his final year. i love it. im not sure i even want him to come back next year. this is shaping up to be the perfect ending for a perfect career. but in no way, shape, or form could the current David Ortiz play any of the other 3 sports.

Baseball? he is an All Star this season. even with only being able to jog to first and have chronic foot/heel pain.

 

I agree with that statement, every sport is unique in it's own way. However, (and I'm just playing devils advocate here) I also think we don't know how he would be in another sport. The only other sport he would probably have a chance of performing is in football but as big as he is he's not that big for a football player. BUT, for all we know the difference in nutritional intake or exercise programs that he would have been on if he played football his entire life could have resulted in a much more buff Ortiz. He's a big guy, and while big guys put on fat easier they also bulk up easier. If Ortiz trained to be a football player he might be anywhere from 40-80 lb's heavier right now and a lot of that might be pure muscle. He could be a completely different animal and might have made it as lineman/linebacker.

 

That's pure speculation on my part and I wouldn't bet on it, but we just don't know. Tom Brady was drafted as a catcher, perhaps he would have been a good catcher......but I highly doubt anyone would argue he chose the right sport.

 

There's nothing wrong in your argument, but I don't think it's the same argument me and User name and others are making. Which is that Ortiz likely has a lot of wear and tear on his body that probably has a lot to do with why he is ready to retire. No matter how much easier his position is or should be, or how that compares to injury levels in other sports invalidates that sport in any way.

[Slasher9]

I agree with that statement, every sport is unique in it's own way. However, (and I'm just playing devils advocate here) I also think we don't know how he would be in another sport. The only other sport he would probably have a chance of performing is in football but as big as he is he's not that big for a football player. BUT, for all we know the difference in nutritional intake or exercise programs that he would have been on if he played football his entire life could have resulted in a much more buff Ortiz. He's a big guy, and while big guys put on fat easier they also bulk up easier. If Ortiz trained to be a football player he might be anywhere from 40-80 lb's heavier right now and a lot of that might be pure muscle. He could be a completely different animal and might have made it as lineman/linebacker.

 

That's pure speculation on my part and I wouldn't bet on it, but we just don't know. Tom Brady was drafted as a catcher, perhaps he would have been a good catcher......but I highly doubt anyone would argue he chose the right sport.

 

There's nothing wrong in your argument, but I don't think it's the same argument me and User name and others are making. Which is that Ortiz likely has a lot of wear and tear on his body that probably has a lot to do with why he is ready to retire. No matter how much easier his position is or should be, or how that compares to injury levels in other sports invalidates that sport in any way.

 

i think he would have made an awesome linebacker or even tight end. but his career would have probably been over by the time he was 29.

[Dojji]

injury % rate (reported injuries):

NFL - 4.85

Basketball - 1.85

baseball - 1.31

hockey - 0.57

 

my guess is that most of those hockey dudes dont report their injuries.....

 

No sport's athletes are more fit than hockey athletes. You see the occasional spare tire around guys in every other sport, especially the NFL and MLB, but you just can't be a good, fat hockey player. because they have to be fit just to do their jobs I can believe hockey athletes will tend not to do the kind of injuries caused by lack of self-maintenance.

[Spudboy]

Back in the early '80s a study was done that concluded swimming and motocross racing required athletes to be in the best shape overall because they use most of the muscles in their bodies more.

 

My guess is that none here would agree that Motocross racing ( actual outdoor motocross racing, not the sensationalized X-Games type s*** ) is athletic.

 

People tend to be narrow minded and not open to new ideas.

 

Motocross is f***ing brutal.

[moonslav59]

injury % rate (reported injuries):

NFL - 4.85

Basketball - 1.85

baseball - 1.31

hockey - 0.57

 

my guess is that most of those hockey dudes dont report their injuries.....

 

Do a front teeth count on NHL players.

[moonslav59]

Exactly, I think some goal posts were moved, perhaps on both sides but I think the original point that David Ortiz should be able to play a few more years just because he is a DH is generally invalid. Whether or not his position is generally less physically demanding than another is truly irrelevant.

 

I also want to point out that the BDC posters that I'm disagreeing with in here are some of my favorite posters from BDC who I generally admire and agree with. I just happen to think they are in the wrong here....I argue in peace.

 

I understand your point, but would never call you "ignorant" for disagreeing.

 

My point is that it's not like we're asking Papi to come back as a 1Bman, catcher or pitcher. Yes, being a DH with painful feet could be much more difficult than any of us imagine, and I have said all along that if the pain Papi feels or the prognosis for his future ability to walk pain-free is indicated, then I have no issue with him retiring.

 

My position is that the Sox should respectfully make him a fantastic offer and then respect his choice.

 

Many players weigh their love of the game vs pain or probability of life-long debility and choose to play longer. I'd say NFL players do this from the first day of practice.

[Bellhorn04]

'Athletic Competition' then. Yeah... I like that.

 

I don't see how you can say that a footrace isn't a sport just because the people trying to beat you are running beside you and not 'playing defense' i.e. trying to block your path.

 

I think you're taking a very narrow view of what a sport is.

[Bellhorn04]

injury % rate (reported injuries):

NFL - 4.85

Basketball - 1.85

baseball - 1.31

hockey - 0.57

 

my guess is that most of those hockey dudes dont report their injuries.....

 

That's a starting point for the data. What this doesn't show is the amount of time missed per injury. Look at all the baseball pitchers who have Tommy John surgery and miss a year plus. Not to mention the ones whose careers are terminated by arm injuries.