The Official Dead Horse Topics Thread

[Kimmi]

Never said that Dipoto quit LA because of the Seattle job. Dipoto quit because of Scoscia. Seattle preferred Jerry over Ben from the getgo because of the reasons I stated. The major difference was Ben was a failed GM who wasted millions of dollars on bad contracts and got fired for it. That's the difference.

 

The reasons you stated prove nothing. Again, you do not know that Dipoto was the guy that Seattle wanted all along. You also do not know that Ben declined the interview because he knew he wasn't getting the job. It's pure speculation on your part.

 

And if Seattle thought so poorly of Ben, why ask him to interview in the first place?

[Elktonnick]

The reasons you stated prove nothing. Again, you do not know that Dipoto was the guy that Seattle wanted all along. You also do not know that Ben declined the interview because he knew he wasn't getting the job. It's pure speculation on your part.

 

And if Seattle thought so poorly of Ben, why ask him to interview in the first place?

 

To fill out their dance card. Ben knew he would not get a nbr 1 job after failing in Boston. He is not suited by neither personality, temperament nor accomplishment for a nbr 1 slot. He is an okay "setup guy" and rather then face rejection he bows out.

[Elktonnick]

One of the areas of disagreement between Theo and Lucchino was with the baseball ops side of things versus the business side of things. Theo wanted players who would help the team win. Lucchino wanted players who would put fans in the seats. Winning is what puts the fans in the seats for the long haul, not the splashy signings. The GM is charge of baseball ops. There is someone else to take care of the business aspect of the team.

 

At any rate, my point was that the GM does not control the ticket prices, nor does he control the payroll. So, criticism of any GM for not signing a bunch of expensive free agents when the ticket prices are so high is misplaced criticism.

 

That isn't true for every organization. Epstein is in charge of the whole shooting match in Chicago he reports to the Chairman(owner) and Board of Directors. Of course he has a budget but he does control the payroll within the limits set by the board.. I am sure he has spending limits which if he wants to exceed require Board approval but that's the way every corporation or large business operates.

 

Before I retired I served on about a half dozen corporate boards. That's the way every non governmental organization I was associated with operated. The board set the budget and broad guidlines but all based on management's recommendations. That's what is meant by the term "General" manager.

 

At one time in baseball there was no question that the GM controlled everything including hiring all the concessionaires. Now clubs mav have different models but if you think that baseball operations operates in a vacuum you are kidding yourself. That's why Cherrington isn't suited for the number one job. He never saw the big picture.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Elktonnick

[Bellhorn04]

At one time in baseball there was no question that the GM controlled everything including hiring all the concessionaires. Now clubs mav have different models but if you think that baseball operations operates in a vacuum you are kidding yourself. That's why Cherrington isn't suited for the number one job. He never saw the big picture.

 

What exactly do you mean by 'he never saw the big picture' in terms of his number one job - the teams he put on the field?

[Bellhorn04]

As I've said many times, I can't blame Ben for the underperformances of the players. His job is to assemble a team that looks good on paper, and he did that. I know that Panda, Hanley, and Porcello are not in the same class as Price, but if Price pitches like a #4/5 pitcher this season instead of pitching like an ace, will that be Dombrowski's fault?

 

It may not be Dombrowski's fault, but it will be his funeral.

 

When the games begin DD will be treated no differently from Ben. The team has to perform, or he wears it.

[Elktonnick]

What exactly do you mean by 'he never saw the big picture' in terms of his number one job - the teams he put on the field?

 

Hanley Ramirez is one example. He signs a ballplayer to a multi year contract with no place to really play him. He hoards prospects refusing to trade them who are blocked from moving up in the organization is another.

Edited December 28, 2015 by Elktonnick

[Kimmi]

To fill out their dance card. Ben knew he would not get a nbr 1 job after failing in Boston. He is not suited by neither personality, temperament nor accomplishment for a nbr 1 slot. He is an okay "setup guy" and rather then face rejection he bows out.

 

Everything you have stated about Seattle's preferences and why Ben didn't interview is speculation. Your opinion that Ben is not suited for a #1 slot is simply that, your opinion.

[Kimmi]

That isn't true for every organization. Epstein is in charge of the whole shooting match in Chicago he reports to the Chairman(owner) and Board of Directors. Of course he has a budget but he does control the payroll within the limits set by the board.. I am sure he has spending limits which if he wants to exceed require Board approval but that's the way every corporation or large business operates.

 

Before I retired I served on about a half dozen corporate boards. That's the way every non governmental organization I was associated with operated. The board set the budget and broad guidlines but all based on management's recommendations. That's what is meant by the term "General" manager.

 

At one time in baseball there was no question that the GM controlled everything including hiring all the concessionaires. Now clubs mav have different models but if you think that baseball operations operates in a vacuum you are kidding yourself. That's why Cherrington isn't suited for the number one job. He never saw the big picture.

 

I agree that baseball ops does not work in a vacuum. That said, a GM's job is to build a winning team, not to worry about ticket prices.

 

Again, Cherington did not control ticket prices, nor did he control the payroll, so blaming him for the high ticket prices is silly.

[Kimmi]

What exactly do you mean by 'he never saw the big picture' in terms of his number one job - the teams he put on the field?

 

Ben saw the big picture very well. If anything, it was the "small picture" that was his weakness, key words here being "if anything".

[Kimmi]

It may not be Dombrowski's fault, but it will be his funeral.

 

When the games begin DD will be treated no differently from Ben. The team has to perform, or he wears it.

 

Another very reasonable response. I understand that when a team fails, the GM is the one who will wear it. And in fairness to Ben, he owned it.

 

My argument is that a team's failure does not necessarily equate to the moves being bad or the GM being incompetent. Sometimes the right moves end with the wrong results. This is true of in game management decisions as well.

 

Everyone agrees that signing Price (cost aside) was the right move for this team. Dombrowski is a genius. If Price fails miserably, that wouldn't change the fact that signing Price was the right move to make, and it doesn't suddenly make Dombrowski incompetent.

[Elktonnick]

Everything you have stated about Seattle's preferences and why Ben didn't interview is speculation. Your opinion that Ben is not suited for a #1 slot is simply that, your opinion.

 

It may be my opinion but I noticed he is not in baseball because no one offered him a nbr 1 job His declining to be interviewed is just a cover because he knew no one would offer him a nbr 1 position. So the evidence supports my point of view not yours.

[Elktonnick]

I agree that baseball ops does not work in a vacuum. That said, a GM's job is to build a winning team, not to worry about ticket prices.

 

Again, Cherington did not control ticket prices, nor did he control the payroll, so blaming him for the high ticket prices is silly.

 

Stop putting words in my mouth I never said Ben was responsible for high ticket prices. In case you haven't noticed it takes money to field a winning baseball team. If Ben operated with your point of view it is little wonder that Henry fired him and no one will hire him for a nbr 1 position.

[Elktonnick]

Another very reasonable response. I understand that when a team fails, the GM is the one who will wear it. And in fairness to Ben, he owned it.

 

My argument is that a team's failure does not necessarily equate to the moves being bad or the GM being incompetent. Sometimes the right moves end with the wrong results. This is true of in game management decisions as well.

 

Everyone agrees that signing Price (cost aside) was the right move for this team. Dombrowski is a genius. If Price fails miserably, that wouldn't change the fact that signing Price was the right move to make, and it doesn't suddenly make Dombrowski incompetent.

 

It wasn't one move that makes a GM competent or incompetent but the totality of ones work. Taking a championship team and running into two last place finishes, saddling it with some terrible contracts for players who are clubhouse cancers, having no nbr 1 or nbr 2 quality starter, a lousy bullpen, a 41 year old closer coming off a wrist injury and no real plan on how to dig the team out of the hole he dug does however qualify as incompetentency.

[Spudboy]

One thing I will never understand fully is why Ben dismantled a decent rotation in 2014.

 

He sent our #1 and #2 packing and got virtually nothing in return. I could see moving Peavey and Dubraunt (SP), but losing Lester and Lackey and not receiving fair or equal value in return was just f***ing nuts.

 

I don't need to hear about Kelly's upside and cost or how Craig raked in St.Louis in years prior to injury. The Sox ended up with Porcello and so far he has done nothing of benefit.

 

I don't buy that these were smart and prudent moves and that the players just under performed. It was bad deal making period.

 

The consequence is that the Sox still have a lousy rotation even after snagging a really good number 1 in Price. Ben made a point of saying that there is more than one way to build a rotation.

 

Too bad he did not use any of them.

[cp176]

I have read so much on here about who was to blame for all of Ben's moves that I sometimes question whether he actually was the GM or not. My guess is that if any of "Browski's" moves turn out to be poor or even questionable, his feet will be held to the fire as probably they should be. I would really like to know how he actually feels about the possibility that the contracts of Ramirez, Sandoval, and Porcello will have to be honored. I would bet quite a bit that if he could have he already would have moved either Sandoval or Ramirez and possibly both of them. So far he has done a good job for us all by trying to make the most out of a bad situation.

[jd98]

As I've said many times, I can't blame Ben for the underperformances of the players. His job is to assemble a team that looks good on paper, and he did that. I know that Panda, Hanley, and Porcello are not in the same class as Price, but if Price pitches like a #4/5 pitcher this season instead of pitching like an ace, will that be Dombrowski's fault?

 

You can blame Ben for acquiring players that were way more likely to underperform. Price and Kimbrel have given no reason to expect nothing but great performance. They may slip a bit, but everyone will be shocked if they are bad. Ben's major acquisitions last year were riddled with question marks. I'm not surprised by Panda's performance, or Masterson's. I'm not surprised that Porcello underperformed, but am surprised by how much he did. Not surprising that Hanley hit well until getting hurt, or that his defense at a position he never played was terrible. Miley was as expected. The pitching staff was nowhere close to being good on paper, and looked unlikely to even be mediocre enough to contend for a playoff spot.

[Kimmi]

It may be my opinion but I noticed he is not in baseball because no one offered him a nbr 1 job His declining to be interviewed is just a cover because he knew no one would offer him a nbr 1 position. So the evidence supports my point of view not yours.

 

Cherington was offered an interview for the #1 job with both Seattle and Philly. He declined for reasons unknown to either of us. For you to state as fact that he declined the interviews because he knew he would not be offered the #1 job has no merit. It's your opinion, which the evidence does not support. Nothing more.

 

It's interesting to note that Dipoto is very similar to Cherington, not only in philosophy, but also in the success that their respective teams had. The Angels bad seasons were not as bad as the Sox, but the Angels also did not win a World Series during Dipoto's tenure. It's also interesting to note that Dipoto, as an independent advisor, raved about the Red Sox farm system.

[Kimmi]

Stop putting words in my mouth I never said Ben was responsible for high ticket prices. In case you haven't noticed it takes money to field a winning baseball team. If Ben operated with your point of view it is little wonder that Henry fired him and no one will hire him for a nbr 1 position.

 

Not trying to put words in your mouth. I'm just responding to the posts in here about the expensive ticket prices.

[Kimmi]

It wasn't one move that makes a GM competent or incompetent but the totality of ones work. Taking a championship team and running into two last place finishes, saddling it with some terrible contracts for players who are clubhouse cancers, having no nbr 1 or nbr 2 quality starter, a lousy bullpen, a 41 year old closer coming off a wrist injury and no real plan on how to dig the team out of the hole he dug does however qualify as incompetentency.

 

You seem to forget that it was also Ben who created that championship team from a last place team.

 

Despite the question marks that this team had, no one denied that the team was after Hanley and Pablo were signed than they were before. Most analysts, old school and new, along with computer projection systems, picked the Sox to win the division last year and to be a contender in 2014. That speaks volumes for the merit of Ben's offseason work.

[Kimmi]

One thing I will never understand fully is why Ben dismantled a decent rotation in 2014.

 

He sent our #1 and #2 packing and got virtually nothing in return. I could see moving Peavey and Dubraunt (SP), but losing Lester and Lackey and not receiving fair or equal value in return was just f***ing nuts.

 

I don't need to hear about Kelly's upside and cost or how Craig raked in St.Louis in years prior to injury. The Sox ended up with Porcello and so far he has done nothing of benefit.

 

I don't buy that these were smart and prudent moves and that the players just under performed. It was bad deal making period.

 

The consequence is that the Sox still have a lousy rotation even after snagging a really good number 1 in Price. Ben made a point of saying that there is more than one way to build a rotation.

 

Too bad he did not use any of them.

 

I won't argue with you about whether they were good moves or not, but not re-signing Lester before last season was a major, major clusterbeep. No question about that.

 

IMO, once Lester left, the Sox really had no choice but to trade Lackey.

[Elktonnick]

Cherington was offered an interview for the #1 job with both Seattle and Philly. He declined for reasons unknown to either of us. For you to state as fact that he declined the interviews because he knew he would not be offered the #1 job has no merit. It's your opinion, which the evidence does not support. Nothing more.

 

It's interesting to note that Dipoto is very similar to Cherington, not only in philosophy, but also in the success that their respective teams had. The Angels bad seasons were not as bad as the Sox, but the Angels also did not win a World Series during Dipoto's tenure. It's also interesting to note that Dipoto, as an independent advisor, raved about the Red Sox farm system.

 

The Phillies job was not the nbr 1 job. The Phillies hired Andy MacPhail for that position early in 2015 to replace Gilick.. Any baseball operations person in Philadelphia will work for him. The Phillies job was the equivalent of the job that Cherrington was offered in Boston under Dombrowski.

 

The fact that Boston has a good farm system isn't Ben's doing but Theo's. Regardless the person responsible for creating a good farm system doesn't mean that person is qualified nor capable of being a good general manager or chief of baseball operations. The farm system can be created leisurely compared to trying to create a winning major league franchise.

[Bellhorn04]

IMO, once Lester left, the Sox really had no choice but to trade Lackey.

 

Why do you say that Kimmi?

[Kimmi]

You can blame Ben for acquiring players that were way more likely to underperform. Price and Kimbrel have given no reason to expect nothing but great performance. They may slip a bit, but everyone will be shocked if they are bad. Ben's major acquisitions last year were riddled with question marks. I'm not surprised by Panda's performance, or Masterson's. I'm not surprised that Porcello underperformed, but am surprised by how much he did. Not surprising that Hanley hit well until getting hurt, or that his defense at a position he never played was terrible. Miley was as expected. The pitching staff was nowhere close to being good on paper, and looked unlikely to even be mediocre enough to contend for a playoff spot.

 

I can agree with your statement that Ben's 3 major acquisitions were more likely to underperform than are Price and Kimbrel. OTOH, would anyone expect all 3 of them to underperform to the extent that they did? Hanley and Pablo were both worse than replacement level.

 

Hanley was arguably the best hitter in the free agent market that year, and the Sox were in need of an offensive upgrade. The team had a need, and Ben filled it with the best available free agent option. It's the same thing Dombrowski did this offseason, but with pitching. Even if we expected his defense to be poor, his offense should not have been.

 

Pablo's signing was not the best move, but even so, to go from a 3.1 WAR player to a -2.0 WAR player at the age of 28 is highly unexpected.

 

The pitching staff was not expected to be the team's strength. They were expected to be mediocre, with the offense carrying them in most games. Not the plan I would have gone with, but on paper, it should have worked.

[Elktonnick]

You seem to forget that it was also Ben who created that championship team from a last place team.

 

Despite the question marks that this team had, no one denied that the team was after Hanley and Pablo were signed than they were before. Most analysts, old school and new, along with computer projection systems, picked the Sox to win the division last year and to be a contender in 2014. That speaks volumes for the merit of Ben's offseason work.

 

No it doesn't. It merely speaks poorly and how often computer projections can be wrong. What truly speaks volumes is the person who knew Ben best professionally, John Henry, lost confidence in his judgement and replaced him along with Larry Luchhino. I think the only reason Henry kept Ben as much authority as he had was because he had Luchhino to oversee him. Once Luchhino was out of the picture so was Ben. BTW Larry Luchhino was more responsible for the championship teams then was Ben. Ben was merely his factotum.

[Elktonnick]

Why do you say that Kimmi?

 

The Red Sox had no choice but to trade Lackey ?????? I can't stand Lackey and am glad they got rid of him but to say they had no choice but to trade him is to be charitable a bit of a stretch.

[jd98]

I can agree with your statement that Ben's 3 major acquisitions were more likely to underperform than are Price and Kimbrel. OTOH, would anyone expect all 3 of them to underperform to the extent that they did? Hanley and Pablo were both worse than replacement level.

I'll agree with that. They all had their risks, but they shouldn't have all been that bad. I expected Porcello to be decent, but wouldn't have been surprised if he was below average, but nobody expected him to be that bad. I expected Panda to continue his downward trend, maybe not as much as he did, but it's not a huge shock to me. The warning signs were there. For Hanley, it depends. Sucky defense was no surprise, but sucky offense was. If his shoulder injury lingered all year, then that explains it, and injury history was his biggest risk. If he was fully healthy and hit that poor, that's unexpected.

 

Hanley was arguably the best hitter in the free agent market that year, and the Sox were in need of an offensive upgrade. The team had a need, and Ben filled it with the best available free agent option. It's the same thing Dombrowski did this offseason, but with pitching. Even if we expected his defense to be poor, his offense should not have been.

 

Pablo's signing was not the best move, but even so, to go from a 3.1 WAR player to a -2.0 WAR player at the age of 28 is highly unexpected.

 

I liked the Hanley signing, when I thought he was being signed to play 3B. Signing both Hanley and Panda for those contracts was a horrible move, especially considering...

 

The pitching staff was not expected to be the team's strength. They were expected to be mediocre, with the offense carrying them in most games. Not the plan I would have gone with, but on paper, it should have worked.

 

We'll never agree on if the rotation should have been mediocre enough to contend, but I just didn't see it. Which of these rotations going in to last season would you expect to be better?

A: Lester, Lackey, Buchholz, Peavy, Doubront

B: Porcello, Miley, Buchholz, Kelly, Masterson

To me, it's clearly A by a good margin. Lester>>>Porcello, Lackey>Miley, Buchholz=Buchholz, Peavy/Kelly could go either way, Doubrount>Masterson imo (Masterson looked done, I wasn't expecting any kind of bounceback). Well, the A rotation was below average the prior year, so I didn't see B even sniffing average. Looked like a bottom 3 rotation, which is what they were, and is not good enough to contend unless the offense is awesome. (Hanley increased that possibility, Sandoval not so much (except in October apparently (I like parentheses)))

[jung]

The Larry/BC regime was a stark staring mess. BC never had JH's confidence and Larry simply saw his defacto Pres of Baseball Ops position as a subset of his President of the Sox role and did the job that way.

 

Neither was responsible for 2013. By Larry's own admission, they had no idea that the 2013 team had that sort of potential and they had not built it for that purpose. It was in their eyes the very definition of a bridge and no less authority than Larry called it that publicly. Serendipity built that championship...entirely and completely unrepeatable by that route. It is virtually impossible to repeat a combination of vets each individually with something to prove with young guys about to burst on MLB, pretty solid pitching and getting 4 deep into closers before you stumble upon the best guy you had [but didn't know it] right from the start.

 

As for last year's mess......Hanley bamboozled BC to get the job...lied through his teeth in fact and fanboy handed over $20m of JH's money for the privilege. Then went on to call Hanley's efforts Heroic. Fanboys don't get much responsibility in MLB Front Offices. Panda was signed without a weight clause...something SF was not willing to do and now we have a player that is literally owned by his weight issues. Many of us saw this as soon as he was signed but hoped he would not be owned by the issue for at least a couple of years....instead of right from year 1. There was no earthly reason to extend Porcello when we did for what we did. We literally gave him more money than he could have ever hoped to have secured in FA. Lets not forget Castillo, the Mr. potential to be a JAG at best being paid millions of $$. Then there is getting fleeced by the Cards who clearly knew more about the players they were trading to us than we did.

 

No folks.....it will IMO be a long long time before somebody in MLB gives BC a job where he is making major decisions involving millions of $$. BC should have never risen above Director of Player Personnel here.

[Elktonnick]

The Larry/BC regime was a stark staring mess. BC never had JH's confidence and Larry simply saw his defacto Pres of Baseball Ops position as a subset of his President of the Sox role and did the job that way.

 

Neither was responsible for 2013. By Larry's own admission, they had no idea that the 2013 team had that sort of potential and they had not built it for that purpose. It was in their eyes the very definition of a bridge and no less authority than Larry called it that publicly. Serendipity built that championship...entirely and completely unrepeatable by that route. It is virtually impossible to repeat a combination of vets each individually with something to prove with young guys about to burst on MLB, pretty solid pitching and getting 4 deep into closers before you stumble upon the best guy you had [but didn't know it] right from the start.

 

As for last year's mess......Hanley bamboozled BC to get the job...lied through his teeth in fact and fanboy handed over $20m of JH's money for the privilege. Then went on to call Hanley's efforts Heroic. Fanboys don't get much responsibility in MLB Front Offices. Panda was signed without a weight clause...something SF was not willing to do and now we have a player that is literally owned by his weight issues. Many of us saw this as soon as he was signed but hoped he would not be owned by the issue for at least a couple of years....instead of right from year 1. There was no earthly reason to extend Porcello when we did for what we did. We literally gave him more money than he could have ever hoped to have secured in FA. Lets not forget Castillo, the Mr. potential to be a JAG at best being paid millions of $$. Then there is getting fleeced by the Cards who clearly knew more about the players they were trading to us than we did.

 

No folks.....it will IMO be a long long time before somebody in MLB gives BC a job where he is making major decisions involving millions of $$. BC should have never risen above Director of Player Personnel here.

 

Amen!

[User Name]

The Larry/BC regime was a stark staring mess. BC never had JH's confidence and Larry simply saw his defacto Pres of Baseball Ops position as a subset of his President of the Sox role and did the job that way.

 

Neither was responsible for 2013. By Larry's own admission, they had no idea that the 2013 team had that sort of potential and they had not built it for that purpose. It was in their eyes the very definition of a bridge and no less authority than Larry called it that publicly. Serendipity built that championship...entirely and completely unrepeatable by that route. It is virtually impossible to repeat a combination of vets each individually with something to prove with young guys about to burst on MLB, pretty solid pitching and getting 4 deep into closers before you stumble upon the best guy you had [but didn't know it] right from the start.

 

As for last year's mess......Hanley bamboozled BC to get the job...lied through his teeth in fact and fanboy handed over $20m of JH's money for the privilege. Then went on to call Hanley's efforts Heroic. Fanboys don't get much responsibility in MLB Front Offices. Panda was signed without a weight clause...something SF was not willing to do and now we have a player that is literally owned by his weight issues. Many of us saw this as soon as he was signed but hoped he would not be owned by the issue for at least a couple of years....instead of right from year 1. There was no earthly reason to extend Porcello when we did for what we did. We literally gave him more money than he could have ever hoped to have secured in FA. Lets not forget Castillo, the Mr. potential to be a JAG at best being paid millions of $$. Then there is getting fleeced by the Cards who clearly knew more about the players they were trading to us than we did.

 

No folks.....it will IMO be a long long time before somebody in MLB gives BC a job where he is making major decisions involving millions of $$. BC should have never risen above Director of Player Personnel here.

 

Do you even logic? You can't take away the accomplishments (and good fortune) of 2013, then turn back and assign blame for the errors (and honestly, terrible luck) of 2014/2015. Common sense does not work like that. Stop.

[User Name]

Amen!

 

How can someone who likes to toot his own horn so much about how smart he is be so terrible at logic and make so much s*** up? It's inconceivable. I usually don't put people on ignore here, but goddamn you're insufferable.