The search for an ace

[a700hitter]

You'll find something else to complain about, I'm sure.

 

And you will always have me to complain about. At least, my discussion centers around baseball moves.

[Kimmi]

I don't believe the contract is an overpay. Better than 200 million for Greinke. Better than Betts + Owens +Devers +more for Sale or Gray. He didn't cost that valuable 11th overall pick. You also get the guarantee that this guy can handle the AL East. You also get all the people saying "The Red Sox don't have an ace" to shut up.

 

I agree that Price's contract is better than Greinke's and better than losing Betts or Bogaerts in a trade for Sale or Gray. Still an overpay though.

 

Just to be clear, I am not saying that Dombrowski shouldn't have made the deal. We needed a #1 pitcher and we got one of the best available.

[Kimmi]

For anyone saying that Price's contract is not an overypay but Panda's contract or Buchholz' option is, that is hypocrisy at it's finest. You can't base whether something is an overpay on whether you like/want the player or not. Well, I suppose you can, but that certainly isn't very objective or fair.

[Kimmi]

Speaking of Clay's option, Iwakuma just signed with the Dodgers for $45mil/3yrs, plus a draft pick. He is also 3 years older than Clay. I've seen comments how this is a good deal for the Dodgers.

 

Check his performance since 2012. It's not that far off from Clay's.

[a700hitter]

Speaking of Clay's option, Iwakuma just signed with the Dodgers for $45mil/3yrs, plus a draft pick. He is also 3 years older than Clay. I've seen comments how this is a good deal for the Dodgers.

 

Check his performance since 2012. It's not that far off from Clay's.

Does he also quit every season around the All Star Break?

[cp176]

For anyone saying that Price's contract is not an overypay but Panda's contract or Buchholz' option is, that is hypocrisy at it's finest. You can't base whether something is an overpay on whether you like/want the player or not. Well, I suppose you can, but that certainly isn't very objective or fair.

 

It would be hypocritical if it just had to do with the amount of the contract. I might be a hypocrite. The Price contract makes sense to me. Number one it is isn't my money. Number two, he represents the ace that we need. Both Sandoval's and Buchholz's contract may make sense if they are able to perform. I hope that they both will but I am not confident of that happening. Personally, it is more about who you have playing the game day to day as opposed to the monopoly money that is being spent.

[mvp 78]

Does he also quit every season around the All Star Break?

 

Not fair to Clay. He got knocked out by his baby that one year. That's not quitting imo.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, it is not hypocritical at all, especially since Ben overpaid for both guys and they were both declining. Price is improving

[a700hitter]

Not fair to Clay. He got knocked out by his baby that one year. That's not quitting imo.

Also, the baby was very large for her age.

[Kimmi]

Does he also quit every season around the All Star Break?

 

Before the All Star break, after the All Star break, but more or less, yes. Iwakuma has an injury history dating back to his days in Japan.

 

He got a contract that is 3 times as much and as long as Clay's, not to mention the valuable draft pick given up. And he's 3 years older than Clay. Yet, his deal is a good deal while Clay's is not? LOL

[Kimmi]

It would be hypocritical if it just had to do with the amount of the contract. I might be a hypocrite. The Price contract makes sense to me. Number one it is isn't my money. Number two, he represents the ace that we need. Both Sandoval's and Buchholz's contract may make sense if they are able to perform. I hope that they both will but I am not confident of that happening. Personally, it is more about who you have playing the game day to day as opposed to the monopoly money that is being spent.

 

You can't look at the contracts in hindsight or from the perspective of "if they perform". At the end of the contracts, you can look back and say whether they ended up being good deals or not. But that is not the same thing as determining up front whether deals are overpays or not.

 

If it's not your money and you don't care how much Henry spends, then none of the contracts should be overpays to you.

[a700hitter]

Before the All Star break, after the All Star break, but more or less, yes. Iwakuma has an injury history dating back to his days in Japan.

 

He got a contract that is 3 times as much and as long as Clay's, not to mention the valuable draft pick given up. And he's 3 years older than Clay. Yet, his deal is a good deal while Clay's is not? LOL

In 4 seasons with Seattle, Iwakuma had back to back seasons where he pitched 219 innings and 179 innings. In 9 seasons, Buchholz has never put up back to back seasons with more than 113 innings and he has never thrown 200 innings.

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, it is not hypocritical at all, especially since Ben overpaid for both guys and they were both declining. Price is improving

 

Hypocritical might not be the right word, but it certainly is biased saying that Price is not an overpay and Buchholz and Panda are. Again, most people are basing that opinion on whether they like the player or not.

[Kimmi]

In 4 seasons with Seattle, Iwakuma had back to back seasons where he pitched 219 innings and 179 innings. In 9 seasons, Buchholz has never put up back to back seasons with more than 113 innings and he has never thrown 200 innings.

 

LOL And the other two seasons that Iwakuma pitched for Seattle? Nice cherry pick.

 

Iwakuma is injury prone. It's a fact.

[a700hitter]

Hypocritical might not be the right word, but it certainly is biased saying that Price is not an overpay and Buchholz and Panda are. Again, most people are basing that opinion on whether they like the player or not.

How are those people being biased, and who are they biased against?

[a700hitter]

LOL And the other two seasons that Iwakuma pitched for Seattle? Nice cherry pick.

 

Iwakuma is injury prone. It's a fact.

No cherry picking. Iwakuma has averaged 164 innings per year while Buchholz is averaging 126 innings per year. There is no getting around that.

[Kimmi]

How are those people being biased, and who are they biased against?

 

They are biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, and Clay in saying that any of those contracts are overpays (hindsight aside) then turning around and saying Price's contract is not an overpay.

[Kimmi]

No cherry picking. Iwakuma has averaged 164 innings per year while Buchholz is averaging 126 innings per year. There is no getting around that.

 

Let's try comparing the last 4 seasons, which would make so much more sense, for so many reasons.

 

Iwakuma's WAR over that period is 9.3. Clay's WAR was 8.3. Iwakuma was worth an average of 1/4 more wins per season.

 

Iwakuma averaged 164 innings per season, as you stated. Clay averaged 146 innings per season. Iwakuma pitched an average of 18 more innings per season.

 

So let's say that the additional 1/4 win and 18 innings is worth $2 million per year, which is about right.

 

How is Iwakuma a good deal while Clay an overpay, especially when you factor in age and length of contract?

[cp176]

You can't look at the contracts in hindsight or from the perspective of "if they perform". At the end of the contracts, you can look back and say whether they ended up being good deals or not. But that is not the same thing as determining up front whether deals are overpays or not.

 

If it's not your money and you don't care how much Henry spends, then none of the contracts should be overpays to you.

 

My feelings about Buchholz are based on years of watching him. Sandoval did not earn the money he was paid last year. I am not hypocritical for sure. I'm not arguing with you over this. Not worth it. Truth - I do care how John Henry spends his money. They are all overpays. I am looking ahead. We have a GM who is making what seem to me to be rational decisions. I am excited about this year.

[cp176]

They are biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, and Clay in saying that any of those contracts are overpays (hindsight aside) then turning around and saying Price's contract is not an overpay.

 

This is really just your opinion. I am sure you can find people who will agree with you. I am not biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, or Buchholz. Words like bias and hypocrite don't really sound good to me. Disagreeing with you does not make me biased nor does it make me a hypocrite.

[a700hitter]

Let's try comparing the last 4 seasons, which would make so much more sense, for so many reasons.

 

Iwakuma's WAR over that period is 9.3. Clay's WAR was 8.3. Iwakuma was worth an average of 1/4 more wins per season.

 

Iwakuma averaged 164 innings per season, as you stated. Clay averaged 146 innings per season. Iwakuma pitched an average of 18 more innings per season.

 

So let's say that the additional 1/4 win and 18 innings is worth $2 million per year, which is about right.

 

How is Iwakuma a good deal while Clay an overpay, especially when you factor in age and length of contract?

I have never argued that Buchholz's contract was an overpay. His predictable long DL stints are very disruptive to the rotation and the team. It is hard to replace him for half the season with a pitcher of comparable quality. I would rather have a durable pitcher of somewhat lesser quality, as over the long haul of the season, I believe that reliability is very important. While I have never argued that Bucholz contract is an overpay, I don't think that it is such a bargain as to be a slam dunk to pick up his option, because of the cascading negative effect of his unreliability upon the remainder of the staff. Do WAR stats take into consideration those dynamics?

[a700hitter]

They are biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, and Clay in saying that any of those contracts are overpays (hindsight aside) then turning around and saying Price's contract is not an overpay.

Why would people be biased against those guys? I don't get it. Maybe it is just their opinion.

[a700hitter]

This is really just your opinion. I am sure you can find people who will agree with you. I am not biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, or Buchholz. Words like bias and hypocrite don't really sound good to me. Disagreeing with you does not make me biased nor does it make me a hypocrite.

Bias and hypocrite ascribe a bad motive other than just having an opinion. Her position as supported by the stats is not so strong as to invalidate other opinions by ascribing bad motives to those opinions. The stats don't take into account fit, chemistry and other dynamics that are not easily measurable with stats.

[Kimmi]

This is really just your opinion. I am sure you can find people who will agree with you. I am not biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, or Buchholz. Words like bias and hypocrite don't really sound good to me. Disagreeing with you does not make me biased nor does it make me a hypocrite.

 

Hypocrite was not the right word. I retracted that. Bias is not meant to be negative. Everyone is biased.

[a700hitter]

Hypocrite was not the right word. I retracted that. Bias is not meant to be negative. Everyone is biased.

So then you also must be biased by taking the opposing view.

[Kimmi]

So then you also must be biased by taking the opposing view.

 

I am biased about many things. At least I can admit it.

[a700hitter]

I am biased about many things. At least I can admit it.

So your opposing view in this case about Price's contract is biased? Edited December 9, 2015 by a700hitter

[Behindenemylines]

Price is the ace the Sox failed to get last off season. What the Braves got for Miller is going to make it hard to up grade the starting rotation any further. D-Backs are all in for 2016.

[Spudboy]

They are biased against Hanley, Panda, Porcello, and Clay in saying that any of those contracts are overpays (hindsight aside) then turning around and saying Price's contract is not an overpay.

 

Are you serious? Price is one of the 4-5 best pitchers in baseball.

 

Hanley was a good player but is toast. fatboy has never been more than average, Porcello, who was one of my favorite opposing pitchers is probably no more than a 4, and Buch is an abject failure to develop into anywhere near his lofty potential.

 

I'm not biased. I see things for how they are without a Homer taint.

 

I usually respect your opinions. But lately you have been beating the same wrong drum over and over. You have no respect for other opinions unless they coincide with your own. It's boring.

[SoxnCycles]

Are you serious? Price is one of the 4-5 best pitchers in baseball.

 

Hanley was a good player but is toast. fatboy has never been more than average, Porcello, who was one of my favorite opposing pitchers is probably no more than a 4, and Buch is an abject failure to develop into anywhere near his lofty potential.

 

I'm not biased. I see things for how they are without a Homer taint.

 

I usually respect your opinions. But lately you have been beating the same wrong drum over and over. You have no respect for other opinions unless they coincide with your own. It's boring.

 

Jesus, what a bunch of sensitive little dicks...