2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[Elktonnick]

I agree that Henry wanted to change the philosophy/direction of this team. No doubt about that. That doesn't mean that Ben did a terrible job, nor that he was incompetent.

 

Of course the Red Sox aren't most teams. They have a killer farm system, thanks to Ben.[/quote

 

Ben did a terrible job as head of baseball operations. You are letting your loyalty to him blind your objectivity. He took a championship team and led it to two last place finishes. On one point we agree, Ben should be Farm Director.

 

BTW You never answered the question, should Henry have replaced Cherrington with Dombrowski, yes or no.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Elktonnick

[Kimmi]

It is a distinction without a difference. The Red Sox aren't most teams they simply did what they needed to do to get Kimbrel. The point is that if Cherrington were still in charge he wouldn't have gotten Kimbrel nor probably Price that's why he was fired. Henry wanted someone to change the philosophy and do what was necessary to get the team an ace.

 

Regarding Kimbrel. You thought it was an overpay. Are you changing your tune?

 

I answered your question now you answer one of mine.

 

Should Henry have replaced Cherrington with Dombrowski?

 

Of course the Red Sox aren't most teams. They have a killer farm system, thanks to Ben.

 

I agree that Henry wanted to change the philosophy/direction of this team. I have no doubt about that. That doesn't mean that Ben did a terrible job or that he was incompetent.

 

I have not changed my mind about Kimbrel being an overpay. Once again, it's the depth of the farm that allowed the overpay without hurting the system.

 

IMO, Henry should not have replaced Cherington. Ben deserved the chance to see his long term vision come to fruition. If Henry is that adamant about having an ace, all he had to do was give Ben the directive to sign an ace no matter the cost, and Ben could have done it.

 

That said, I'm not heartbroken over Ben, as you suggest. I have no problem with Dombrowski as of now. As I've said many times, I just think he gets an unfair shake.

[Elktonnick]

Of course the Red Sox aren't most teams. They have a killer farm system, thanks to Ben.

 

I agree that Henry wanted to change the philosophy/direction of this team. I have no doubt about that. That doesn't mean that Ben did a terrible job or that he was incompetent.

 

I have not changed my mind about Kimbrel being an overpay. Once again, it's the depth of the farm that allowed the overpay without hurting the system.

 

IMO, Henry should not have replaced Cherington. Ben deserved the chance to see his long term vision come to fruition. If Henry is that adamant about having an ace, all he had to do was give Ben the directive to sign an ace no matter the cost, and Ben could have done it.

 

That said, I'm not heartbroken over Ben, as you suggest. I have no problem with Dombrowski as of now. As I've said many times, I just think he gets an unfair shake.

 

Why do you think Henry didn't give Cherrington the opportunity?

[Kimmi]

Kimmi I regret that I used the term sycophant. You aren't a Cherrington sycophant. Your defense of him is more filial. If I didn't know better I'd think you were related.

 

My defense of Cherington and Theo before him is really more of a defense of their overall baseball philosophy than it is of the individuals. I am 100% in agreement with their philosophy in terms of building a baseball team, including their opinions of long term free agent contracts and their use of analytics.

[Elktonnick]

My defense of Cherington and Theo before him is really more of a defense of their overall baseball philosophy than it is of the individuals. I am 100% in agreement with their philosophy in terms of building a baseball team, including their opinions of long term free agent contracts and their use of analytics.

 

It may surprise you but I also agree. The problem is in execution. Cherrington used very poor judgment that's why he is no longer with the Red Sox.

[a700hitter]

It may surprise you but I also agree. The problem is in execution. Cherrington used very poor judgment that's why he is no longer with the Red Sox.

Not everyone who ascribes to a philosophy is competent at implementing it. I don't think ownership changed their philosophy on a whim. Finishing last in 3 of 4 years was hurting their brand. Ben forced their hand. Ownership gave him plenty of rope, and he hung himself. 2015 was his crossroads, and he s*** the bed. I don't think many other owners would have been as patient if they were spending as much on payroll. Ben's results really were unprecedented.

[Elktonnick]

Not everyone who ascribes to a philosophy is competent at implementing it. I don't think ownership changed their philosophy on a whim. Finishing last in 3 of 4 years was hurting their brand. Ben forced their hand. Ownership gave him plenty of rope, and he hung himself. 2015 was his crossroads, and he s*** the bed. I don't think many other owners would have been as patient if they were spending as much on payroll. Ben's results really were unprecedented.

 

I certainly think Ben was the agent of his own demise.

[jd98]

Two simple yes or no questions:

 

1. Did the fact that the Sox have cost-controlled players on the team right now, with more on the way, affect Henry's decision in giving Price a huge contract?

 

2. Did we get Kimbrel by trading propsects from the farm, without hurting the overall state of the farm?

 

As far as many of those cost controlled players being signed by Theo, who was Theo's right hand man at the time of the signings? Also, who was adamant about not trading those players away, despite many strong opinions that they should be traded for starting pitching?

 

Almost all of the cost controlled MLBers are Theo's acquisitions (Betts, Bogaerts, Bradley, Swihart, Vazquez, Shaw, Owens), as was the top prospect traded for Kimbrel (Margot). Ben gets credit for those because he was Theo's right hand man? So basically, Ben gets credit for every good move that occurred while he was in the organization, and all the bad moves he made was ownership's fault.

 

Also, in general, it's a lot easier building a farm system when the MLB team stinks. Higher draft picks (Benentindi) and the ability to trade impending free agents for prospects (ERod), rather than the pressure to trade prospects for another piece to a playoff push. Theo never had that luxury, while Ben had that advantage 75% of the seasons he was GM.

Edited December 20, 2015 by jd98

[redsoxfan3]

Do you guys think that the roster, as is, will compete for the top spot in the AL East?

 

I obviously think that with the additions of Price, Kimbrel, Smith, and Young, that we are obviously a better team than last year. However, the question marks after Price in the rotation are concerning. I think signing a guy like Kazmir could really help solidify our rotation. Kelly would be able to move to the pen, where I think he would be able to excel.

 

Also, I read some of the previous posts about Pedroia. I am probably one of the biggest Pedroia advocates amongst most of the Red Sox fans that I have talked to. He is injury prone and he saw a decline in range defensively. I think that a plan to give him days off will be a big part of him staying healthy. I also know that criticism from the media and fans from people that doubt him will only facilitate his desire to prove everyone wrong.

 

He is a guy that should be able to play 130-140 games if healthy (hopefully giving him about 20-30 days off throughout the year). If we can get him to hit .300 with around 15 homers, and above average defense, then there is not another guy that I would want starting over him. Of course, that depends on his health. I just don't think you trade him away. He is a clubhouse leader and the heart and soul of this team, along with Big Papi.

 

Here's to a great season ahead of us. On paper, this team will be competitive. But we heard that before the start of last season. Let's hope that this team can live up to their expectations. Happy holidays to everyone and happy new year!

[Elktonnick]

Do you guys think that the roster, as is, will compete for the top spot in the AL East?

 

I obviously think that with the additions of Price, Kimbrel, Smith, and Young, that we are obviously a better team than last year. However, the question marks after Price in the rotation are concerning. I think signing a guy like Kazmir could really help solidify our rotation. Kelly would be able to move to the pen, where I think he would be able to excel.

 

Also, I read some of the previous posts about Pedroia. I am probably one of the biggest Pedroia advocates amongst most of the Red Sox fans that I have talked to. He is injury prone and he saw a decline in range defensively. I think that a plan to give him days off will be a big part of him staying healthy. I also know that criticism from the media and fans from people that doubt him will only facilitate his desire to prove everyone wrong.

 

He is a guy that should be able to play 130-140 games if healthy (hopefully giving him about 20-30 days off throughout the year). If we can get him to hit .300 with around 15 homers, and above average defense, then there is not another guy that I would want starting over him. Of course, that depends on his health. I just don't think you trade him away. He is a clubhouse leader and the heart and soul of this team, along with Big Papi.

 

Here's to a great season ahead of us. On paper, this team will be competitive. But we heard that before the start of last season. Let's hope that this team can live up to their expectations. Happy holidays to everyone and happy new year!

 

Despite the additions the Red Sox need an another starter. Based on his past record, Buchholtz is a huge question mark. Given his past injury I wouldn't be surprised if he won't be a candidate for TJ surgery. I fully expect him to be on the DL before the ASB. Kelly is another major question mark.

 

Apart from the rotation, Farrell's handling of the bullpen last year gives me pause that will continue to mismanage the pen again next year. I have my doubts about Koji and Tazawa's durability.

 

The infield corners are also of great concern. Sandoval was the worst defensive 3rd baseman in the majors last year. One can't expect much better if Sox don't find a way to move him. And then there is Hanley Ramirez at 1st. It is entirely probable that Boston will have the worst 1st -3rd combination in baseball. The pair would probably win stone glove awards if such existed. They combined can easily cost the Sox 10 games.

 

So given all that and the worst manager in the ALE, in John Farrell, the Sox are an 85 win team behind Toronto and Baltimore.

 

The good news is I believe that DD will make every effort to move Sandoval and Ramirez if he can. I also believe that if the Sox get off to a bad start DD will dump Farrell in a heartbeat. As awful as it may sound the only reason he is still the manager was because he got sick .

If they can move the Panda and Ramirez and dump Farrell then I think they contend.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Elktonnick

[a700hitter]

It was terribly sad news that Farrell was diagnosed with cancer, but the minute I heard that sad news it did occur to me that we would be stuck with him for another season. He is a terrible manager.

[cp176]

Despite the additions the Red Sox need an another starter. Based on his past record, Buchholtz is a huge question mark. Given his past injury I wouldn't be surprised if he won't be a candidate for TJ surgery. I fully expect him to be on the DL before the ASB. Kelly is another major question mark.

 

Apart from the rotation, Farrell's handling of the bullpen last year gives me pause that will continue to mismanage the pen again next year. I have my doubts about Koji and Tazawa's durability.

 

The infield corners are also of great concern. Sandoval was the worst defensive 3rd baseman in the majors last year. One can't expect much better if Sox don't find a way to move him. And then there is Hanley Ramirez at 1st. It is entirely probable that Boston will have the worst 1st -3rd combination in baseball. The pair would probably win stone glove awards if such existed. They combined can easily cost the Sox 10 games.

 

So given all that and the worst manager in the ALE, in John Farrell, the Sox are an 85 win team behind Toronto and Baltimore.

 

The good news is I believe that DD will make every effort to move Sandoval and Ramirez if he can. I also believe that if the Sox get off to a bad start DD will dump Farrell in a heartbeat. As awful as it may sound the only reason he is still the manager was because he got sick .

If they can move the Panda and Ramirez and dump Farrell then I think they contend.

 

This is kind of like tough love for me. I wish that I didn't agree with this summation in a way but I do. I say that primarily because of Farrell. I like the guy but ...

[Elktonnick]

This is kind of like tough love for me. I wish that I didn't agree with this summation in a way but I do. I say that primarily because of Farrell. I like the guy but ...

 

Hey so do I but he is a terrible manager especially when it comes to managing the bull pen. Because I live here I have to listen to O's broadcast when they play Boston. Jim Palmer is very harsh in his criticism of Farrell and the way he handles the bullpen.

[a700hitter]

Hey so do I but he is a terrible manager especially when it comes to managing the bull pen. Because I live here I have to listen to O's broadcast when they play Boston. Jim Palmer is very harsh in his criticism of Farrell and the way he handles the bullpen.

He has managed 5 years and finished last 4 times -- and the team played its best ball after he was gone last year. They almost climbed out of the deep last place hole that they had dug for themselves under Farrell.

[User Name]

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that Farrell is a terrible manager. He's been given a BP full of weapons, yet I can't help but think he'll cost the team a handful of games by using the wrong reliever at the wrong spot. Edited December 21, 2015 by User Name?

[cp176]

Hey so do I but he is a terrible manager especially when it comes to managing the bull pen. Because I live here I have to listen to O's broadcast when they play Boston. Jim Palmer is very harsh in his criticism of Farrell and the way he handles the bullpen.

 

You an 700 are just a couple of heartless guys! You think Palmer can still throw a ball?

[cp176]

You an 700 are just a couple of heartless guys! You think Palmer can still throw a ball?

 

I just had a thought - I always thought John Farrell was a pretty good pitching coach as in an Assistant Coach - See where I am going with this?

[Elktonnick]

You an 700 are just a couple of heartless guys! You think Palmer can still throw a ball?

 

Batting practice perhaps. Palmer is in tremendous shape for a 70 year old

[cp176]

Batting practice perhaps. Palmer is in tremendous shape for a 70 year old

 

the man could pitch

[a700hitter]

I just had a thought - I always thought John Farrell was a pretty good pitching coach as in an Assistant Coach - See where I am going with this?

It is clear as the nose on my face. Unbelievably, many would disagree with your conclusion.

[a700hitter]

You an 700 are just a couple of heartless guys! You think Palmer can still throw a ball?

Baseball shows no mercy, and I love baseball even though (like nature) it can seem cruel at times.

[jacksonianmarch]

http://moesucks.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/lets-beat-that-horse.jpg

 

Cherington isn't coming back. Let's stop talking about him, lol

[a700hitter]

We are trying to shift the discussion to Farrell.

[cp176]

goddam Dombrowski - We had a pant load more to talk about last year at this time.

[Kimmi]

Cherington isn't coming back. Let's stop talking about him, lol

 

No worries, I am done.

[Kimmi]

Do you guys think that the roster, as is, will compete for the top spot in the AL East?

 

I obviously think that with the additions of Price, Kimbrel, Smith, and Young, that we are obviously a better team than last year. However, the question marks after Price in the rotation are concerning. I think signing a guy like Kazmir could really help solidify our rotation. Kelly would be able to move to the pen, where I think he would be able to excel.

 

Also, I read some of the previous posts about Pedroia. I am probably one of the biggest Pedroia advocates amongst most of the Red Sox fans that I have talked to. He is injury prone and he saw a decline in range defensively. I think that a plan to give him days off will be a big part of him staying healthy. I also know that criticism from the media and fans from people that doubt him will only facilitate his desire to prove everyone wrong.

 

He is a guy that should be able to play 130-140 games if healthy (hopefully giving him about 20-30 days off throughout the year). If we can get him to hit .300 with around 15 homers, and above average defense, then there is not another guy that I would want starting over him. Of course, that depends on his health. I just don't think you trade him away. He is a clubhouse leader and the heart and soul of this team, along with Big Papi.

 

Here's to a great season ahead of us. On paper, this team will be competitive. But we heard that before the start of last season. Let's hope that this team can live up to their expectations. Happy holidays to everyone and happy new year!

 

I think the team, as is, can compete for the top spot in the division. I would prefer that Dombrowski sign another #2/3 pitcher, but if he doesn't, I still feel really good about the team.

 

I am encouraged by the way they played the final two months of last year. Add Price and what should be a dominant bullpen to that, and this team should contend.

 

I agree with you about Pedroia.

[Kimmi]

Hey so do I but he is a terrible manager especially when it comes to managing the bull pen. Because I live here I have to listen to O's broadcast when they play Boston. Jim Palmer is very harsh in his criticism of Farrell and the way he handles the bullpen.

 

I'm not saying that Farrell didn't mismanage the pen, but Palmer is not the good, objective analyst that he used to be. I used to love listening to Palmer. Thorne has somehow rubbed off on him in a bad way, and Palmer has become somewhat annoying.

 

Also, to be fair, Farrell did have his hands tied to a large degree in terms of managing the pen. The starters were not getting deep into games very often, and there wasn't a whole lot in the pen that Farrell could trust.

[Kimmi]

If there's one thing we can all agree on, it's that Farrell is a terrible manager. He's been given a BP full of weapons, yet I can't help but think he'll cost the team a handful of games by using the wrong reliever at the wrong spot.

 

Well go figure. I don't agree that Farrell is a terrible manager. I'm not saying that he's not terrible. In fact, I questioned the coaching staff several times last year. One does have wonder why there has been such an extent of underperformances that last two seasons. I just think the verdict is still out on Farrell. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

[Northern Star]

Well go figure. I don't agree that Farrell is a terrible manager. I'm not saying that he's not terrible. In fact, I questioned the coaching staff several times last year. One does have wonder why there has been such an extent of underperformances that last two seasons. I just think the verdict is still out on Farrell. I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now.

 

???

[Elktonnick]

I'm not saying that Farrell didn't mismanage the pen, but Palmer is not the good, objective analyst that he used to be. I used to love listening to Palmer. Thorne has somehow rubbed off on him in a bad way, and Palmer has become somewhat annoying.

 

Also, to be fair, Farrell did have his hands tied to a large degree in terms of managing the pen. The starters were not getting deep into games very often, and there wasn't a whole lot in the pen that Farrell could trust.

 

First of all I think Jim Palmer is an awful analyst but not because he doesn't know baseball or pitching. He does know his stuff. He is awful on television because he talks too much and treats his audience like they are all watching their first baseball game. But if you can get by that he offers useful insight especially on the art and strategy of pitching. On that he isn't biased.

 

Palmer's criticism of Farrell was that he burns his relievers by warming them up needlessly and not bringing them into a game after they have warmed up. Now some of that is that may have been due to the weak starting rotation but Palmer maintained that Farrell and the Red Sox were not tracking how often the relievers were warming up nor how many warm up pitches they were throwing without entering the ballgame. Showalter and the Orioles have a very elaborate system on that regard.

 

Now that may seem incredible for a team which values every kind of statistic but Palmer maintained that was the case. After he said it a couple of times I began to notice how Farrell was doing exactly that, namely warming up pitchers then not bringing them into the game. Getting guys up then sitting them down only to get up again. Palmer thought this was one of the reasons Boston was burning so many relievers namely overworking them needlessly.

 

It will be one of the things I will be watching very closely this year.