2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[a700hitter]

To me, the argument seems to be centered around you and A700.

We played central roles.

[Elktonnick]

Relative proximity to Nashville? Memphis has relative proximity to Nashville, not Boston. Theo must have been looking at one of those spinning globes where it's 3 inches between the two cities.

 

Exactly! What Theo is really saying is what every baseball fan (perhaps minus one) already knows "It's all about the money" . The rest is interview filler.

[Kimmi]

I am really glad you posted this. I tend to agree with you most of the time, so I was getting ready to go back over my posts to see who I needed to apologize to for calling them names.

 

It wasn't you CP.

 

@ a700 - Perhaps the reason that you find Pal's post derogatory, yet you don't find anything derogatory in the posts of those who agree with you is because of that human bias that I have mentioned once or twice?

 

If what Pal posted is derogatory, then so is 'sychophant', as is being called boring, as is being asked if your last name is Cherington.

[Kimmi]

To me, the argument seems to be centered around you and A700.

 

Not sure why, but OK.

[Kimmi]

Exactly! What Theo is really saying is what every baseball fan (perhaps minus one) already knows "It's all about the money" . The rest is interview filler.

 

OK, so let's say for your sake that rest is "interview filler". Does the fact that the Sox have many cost-controlled players now and in the near future have any bearing on them being able to give Price a huge contract? Any at all?

[Bellhorn04]

OK, so let's say for your sake that rest is "interview filler". Does the fact that the Sox have many cost-controlled players now and in the near future have any bearing on them being able to give Price a huge contract? Any at all?

 

It has some, Kimmi. But we would not have been able to acquire Price if John Henry wasn't willing to go over the tax threshold by $15 million. We did not have a lot of payroll room coming into 2016.

[User Name]

What Kimmi's trying to say here is, that if the Sox don't have the pieces to contend by adding Price, then Henry doesn't fork over the cash. If the core in place sucks so bad that a Price signing makes no sense, they wouldn't have made that humongous financial commitment. Now, the fact that Price was publicly interested in the state of the Sox' MLB and MiLB rosters just adds weight to the argument. It makes perfect sense.

[Elktonnick]

And here's what I posted first about Price's signing being possible because of the state of the farm system:

 

A big reason why ownership OK'd the Price contract was because of the young, cost-controlled players already on the team, with several more 2-3 years away. So no, it's not nonsense.

 

I have acknowledged that the main reason Price signed with the Sox is because of the money. The money was available because of the strong state of the farm system and its recent graduates.

 

That said, the strong farm system WAS a selling point for Price.

 

What is nonsense is your post that all of Dombrowski's accomplishments were because of Cherrington's efforts regarding the farm.. That's what you posted. Actually using your logic it would more accurate to say it was all due to Epstein's efforts. Since all the young the cost controlled players Vasquez, Betts Bogaerts, Swihart, Shaw and Bradley were all signed in 2011 or before Epstein's resignation.

 

Speaking on money being available, Cherrrington's ridiculous contracts for Ramirez, Porcello and Sandoval does more to tie Dombrowski's hands.and restrict his efforts to obtain additional quality pitching.

 

What made Price want to be a Red Sox was 217 million dollars. The other stuff you can believe if you want but if Price exercises his option he'll probably never play on the same Red Sox team with Benvintendi.

 

I understanding you are still mourning over Cherrington's firing and will find any excuse to give him some credit. If it makes you feel better I'll concede that Cherrington did a very competent job as one of Theo's assistants. But when left to his own devices he was just in over his head.

 

Quite frankly, once Luchhino was eased out it isn't surprising that Cherrington met the same fate. Henry decided he needed a new philosophy.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Elktonnick

[a700hitter]

It wasn't you CP.

 

@ a700 - Perhaps the reason that you find Pal's post derogatory, yet you don't find anything derogatory in the posts of those who agree with you is because of that human bias that I have mentioned once or twice?

 

If what Pal posted is derogatory, then so is 'sychophant', as is being called boring, as is being asked if your last name is Cherington.

Kimmi, as usual you completely misunderstand my posts. This time your misunderstanding is understandable. Pal may not even have understood my post. Let me explain. I really didn't care about what Pal said in his post. I was just needling him, because recently in this or another thread he asked me to stop my personal insults. I really don't care what he thinks about me or what he posts about me, but turnabout is fair play. He chastised me. Tongue in cheek, I chastised him in return. So, you see your moralizing to me about insults in this instance is misplaced. I wasn't insulted.

 

BTW, sycophant is a very sophisticated description of a homer and we have a few of them on TalkSox. Homers are partisans. Partisans are fans. I find none of these to be derogatory terms.

 

Edit: I would think you would be complimented by being asked if your name is Cherington since you have such a high opinion of him. LOL!! Also, that came from a Yankee fan. You should expect insults from Yankee fans, and that was really a light weight insult from a Yankee fan. You could never make it in NY as a Red Sox fan if that got under your skin.

Edited December 20, 2015 by a700hitter

[Palodios]

Eduardo Rodriguez, Brock Holt and Koji are the gems from Ben's time here. Porcello, Kelly and Brian Johnson may all still turn into solid contributors as well.

 

He also traded junk for Wade Miley, who singlehanded pulled in a haul for the Sox.

 

In all reality, the 2016 will win or lose based on the rotation Ben built last year.

[Elktonnick]

It is really amusing the lengths that some are going to come up with positives from Cherrington's tenure. The simple truth is both ownership and the overwhelming majority of Red Sox nation thought whatever positives remained from Cherrington's tenure a change in both the senior leadership and philosophy was needed. That's not to say that everything Cherrington did was bad only that there wasn't enough good for him to remain as head of baseball operations.

[Palodios]

It is amusing what lengths the miserables go to discredit a GM who won a World Series for their team.

[Elktonnick]

It is amusing what lengths the miserables go to discredit a GM who won a World Series for their team.

 

I didn't discredit him his boss did when he fired him for taking a Championship team to two consecutive last place finishes.

[a700hitter]

I'm ordering a round of nog for all of them.

I had an egg nog martini tonight. Good Christmas cheer.

[Kimmi]

It has some, Kimmi. But we would not have been able to acquire Price if John Henry wasn't willing to go over the tax threshold by $15 million. We did not have a lot of payroll room coming into 2016.

 

Of course Henry has to be willing to shell out the money, and in this case go over the luxury tax. However, that willingness stems from the knowledge that the team has several cost controlled players and that one huge contract like this is not likely to handcuff them. The team can absorb this cost because of the low cost players elsewhere on the team.

 

Look at where the Yankees are right now. They have been unwilling to sign a big free this offseason because of the large contracts they still have on the books, and because they are trying to get younger, ie more cost controlled. Once they do that, they will be able to reset the luxury tax penalty and afford that huge contract or two in 2018 when the free agent class is supposed to be elite.

[Bellhorn04]

Of course Henry has to be willing to shell out the money, and in this case go over the luxury tax. However, that willingness stems from the knowledge that the team has several cost controlled players and that one huge contract like this is not likely to handcuff them. The team can absorb this cost because of the low cost players elsewhere on the team.

 

We do have cost controlled players, I certainly appreciate that. But we can't overlook that we have a monster payroll in spite of that.

[mvp 78]

I had an egg nog martini tonight. Good Christmas cheer.

 

Had coffee with Baileys, egg nog and coquito.

[Kimmi]

What Kimmi's trying to say here is, that if the Sox don't have the pieces to contend by adding Price, then Henry doesn't fork over the cash. If the core in place sucks so bad that a Price signing makes no sense, they wouldn't have made that humongous financial commitment. Now, the fact that Price was publicly interested in the state of the Sox' MLB and MiLB rosters just adds weight to the argument. It makes perfect sense.

 

And this too. The young core that is in place, along with a young core that is 2-3 years away, not only helped persuade Henry to spend the money, it helped Price decide that he really wants to play in Boston. Of course it makes perfect sense, because it's the truth.

[Kimmi]

What is nonsense is your post that all of Dombrowski's accomplishments were because of Cherrington's efforts regarding the farm.. That's what you posted. Actually using your logic it would more accurate to say it was all due to Epstein's efforts. Since all the young the cost controlled players Vasquez, Betts Bogaerts, Swihart, Shaw and Bradley were all signed in 2011 or before Epstein's resignation.

 

Speaking on money being available, Cherrrington's ridiculous contracts for Ramirez, Porcello and Sandoval does more to tie Dombrowski's hands.and restrict his efforts to obtain additional quality pitching.

 

What made Price want to be a Red Sox was 217 million dollars. The other stuff you can believe if you want but if Price exercises his option he'll probably never play on the same Red Sox team with Benvintendi.

 

I understanding you are still mourning over Cherrington's firing and will find any excuse to give him some credit. If it makes you feel better I'll concede that Cherrington did a very competent job as one of Theo's assistants. But when left to his own devices he was just in over his head.

 

Quite frankly, once Luchhino was eased out it isn't surprising that Cherrington met the same fate. Henry decided he needed a new philosophy.

 

Two simple yes or no questions:

 

1. Did the fact that the Sox have cost-controlled players on the team right now, with more on the way, affect Henry's decision in giving Price a huge contract?

 

2. Did we get Kimbrel by trading propsects from the farm, without hurting the overall state of the farm?

 

As far as many of those cost controlled players being signed by Theo, who was Theo's right hand man at the time of the signings? Also, who was adamant about not trading those players away, despite many strong opinions that they should be traded for starting pitching?

[Elktonnick]

We do have cost controlled players, I certainly appreciate that. But we can't overlook that we have a monster payroll in spite of that.

 

The Red Sox have a higher projected payroll in 2017 and 2018 than the Yankees. The value of the so called cost controlled players is purely a subjective artifice. These same players were present on the Red Sox roster a year ago and Boston didn't spend big for a nbr 1 starter. Instead they spent big for a much traveled problem child Hanley Ramirez and the worst defensive 3rd baseman in baseball.

 

The difference between this off season and last was John Henry made a decision that the team needed a change in philosophy and direction. He said so many times during the course of the 2015. In truth every team has a certain number of cost controlled players. The major factor in Henry opening his wallet and spending big for Price was his decision to change philosophy and he cleaned house and chose new people to carry out those changes.

[Elktonnick]

Two simple yes or no questions:

 

1. Did the fact that the Sox have cost-controlled players on the team right now, with more on the way, affect Henry's decision in giving Price a huge contract?

 

2. Did we get Kimbrel by trading propsects from the farm, without hurting the overall state of the farm?

 

As far as many of those cost controlled players being signed by Theo, who was Theo's right hand man at the time of the signings? Also, who was adamant about not trading those players away, despite many strong opinions that they should be traded for starting pitching?

 

1. No

 

2. Yes but so what every team has prospects.

 

Like I said Cherrington was a good assistant but a lousy head guy that's why he got fired.

[Elktonnick]

And this too. The young core that is in place, along with a young core that is 2-3 years away, not only helped persuade Henry to spend the money, it helped Price decide that he really wants to play in Boston. Of course it makes perfect sense, because it's the truth.

 

217 million made more sense. Like I said before if he were so hot to play with these future prospects why does have a three year opt out clause.

Edited December 20, 2015 by Elktonnick

[Kimmi]

Kimmi, as usual you completely misunderstand my posts. This time your misunderstanding is understandable. Pal may not even have understood my post. Let me explain. I really didn't care about what Pal said in his post. I was just needling him, because recently in this or another thread he asked me to stop my personal insults. I really don't care what he thinks about me or what he posts about me, but turnabout is fair play. He chastised me. Tongue in cheek, I chastised him in return. So, you see your moralizing to me about insults in this instance is misplaced. I wasn't insulted.

 

BTW, sycophant is a very sophisticated description of a homer and we have a few of them on TalkSox. Homers are partisans. Partisans are fans. I find none of these to be derogatory terms.

 

Edit: I would think you would be complimented by being asked if your name is Cherington since you have such a high opinion of him. LOL!! Also, that came from a Yankee fan. You should expect insults from Yankee fans, and that was really a light weight insult from a Yankee fan. You could never make it in NY as a Red Sox fan if that got under your skin.

 

Definition of sychophant:

 

a person who acts obsequiously toward someone important in order to gain advantage.

synonyms: yes-man, bootlicker, brown-noser, toady, lickspittle, flatterer, flunky, lackey, spaniel, doormat, stooge, cringer, suck, suck-up

 

That is most definitely a derogatory term.

 

You also have the wrong impression of me as being an overly sensitive person.

 

Yes, I find such things insulting and derogatory, and I will call others on it from time to time when such posts are directed at me, just because they need to be called on it. That said, I realize that the reason why people respond in such a way is because that's all they have. They've lost the debate. It's their last resort. I see it as a compliment, actually.

 

I am flattered by being asked if my last name is Cherington. However, I also know that the person asking me that question was being derogatory in asking it.

 

And FTR, I really don't think I am misunderstanding your posts at all.

[Kimmi]

1. No

 

2. Yes but so what every team has prospects.

 

Like I said Cherrington was a good assistant but a lousy head guy that's why he got fired.

 

If you can honestly answer that first question with a "no", then there isn't any point in discussing this any further.

 

With respect to every team having prospects, sure. Most teams either do not have the pieces needed to get a player like Kimbrel without gutting their system. You know that's true.

[Elktonnick]

If you can honestly answer that first question with a "no", then there isn't any point in discussing this any further.

 

With respect to every team having prospects, sure. Most teams either do not have the pieces needed to get a player like Kimbrel without gutting their system. You know that's true.

 

It is a distinction without a difference. The Red Sox aren't most teams they simply did what they needed to do to get Kimbrel. The point is that if Cherrington were still in charge he wouldn't have gotten Kimbrel nor probably Price that's why he was fired. Henry wanted someone to change the philosophy and do what was necessary to get the team an ace.

 

Regarding Kimbrel. You thought it was an overpay. Are you changing your tune?

 

I answered your question now you answer one of mine.

 

Should Henry have replaced Cherrington with Dombrowski?

[a700hitter]

Definition of sychophant:

 

a person who acts obsequiously toward someone important in order to gain advantage.

synonyms: yes-man, bootlicker, brown-noser, toady, lickspittle, flatterer, flunky, lackey, spaniel, doormat, stooge, cringer, suck, suck-up

 

That is most definitely a derogatory term.

 

You also have the wrong impression of me as being an overly sensitive person.

 

Yes, I find such things insulting and derogatory, and I will call others on it from time to time when such posts are directed at me, just because they need to be called on it. That said, I realize that the reason why people respond in such a way is because that's all they have. They've lost the debate. It's their last resort. I see it as a compliment, actually.

 

I am flattered by being asked if my last name is Cherington. However, I also know that the person asking me that question was being derogatory in asking it.

 

And FTR, I really don't think I am misunderstanding your posts at all.

Of course, you would understand my posts better than I do. My post about the meaning of the term sycophant was tongue in cheek. You missed that one too.

 

On the Cherington debate, you lost that one. Ownership was the arbiter of that debate.

Edited December 20, 2015 by a700hitter

[Kimmi]

We do have cost controlled players, I certainly appreciate that. But we can't overlook that we have a monster payroll in spite of that.

 

Of course we do. We have the best of both worlds. Sox fans are very fortunate.

 

Speaking of which, I read an article on the "misery of fans" yesterday. It ranked all the fanbases in terms of who had the "right" to be the most miserable based on the past 30 years.

 

Rockies fans should be the most miserable, with a score of 103 on a scale that went from 0 to 100. The higher the score, the more miserable the fans had the right to be.

 

The Sox had the 2nd lowest score behind only the Yankees. Our score was 43, if I recall correctly, which fell into the category of "we really have no right to complain". Yet, we know that Yankees and Sox fans probably complain more than any other team's fans.

 

Seriously, other team's fans think we are crazy for complaining when it's only been two years since we won a WS, regardless of how bad we were the past two years. They would love to have it so good.

[Kimmi]

It is a distinction without a difference. The Red Sox aren't most teams they simply did what they needed to do to get Kimbrel. The point is that if Cherrington were still in charge he wouldn't have gotten Kimbrel nor probably Price that's why he was fired. Henry wanted someone to change the philosophy and do what was necessary to get the team an ace.

 

Regarding Kimbrel. You thought it was an overpay. Are you changing your tune?

 

I answered your question now you answer one of mine.

 

Should Henry have replaced Cherrington with Dombrowski?

 

I agree that Henry wanted to change the philosophy/direction of this team. No doubt about that. That doesn't mean that Ben did a terrible job, nor that he was incompetent.

 

Of course the Red Sox aren't most teams. They have a killer farm system, thanks to Ben.

[Elktonnick]

Kimmi I regret that I used the term sycophant. You aren't a Cherrington sycophant. Your defense of him is more filial. If I didn't know better I'd think you were related.

[a700hitter]

Did the fact that the Sox have cost-controlled players on the team right now, with more on the way, affect Henry's decision in giving Price a huge contract?

This question in the context of a team payroll of $184 million in 2015 and a payroll that has to bust through the luxury threshold just to field a competitive team in 2016 is fallacious. It would be like saying "thanks to Ben finishing last, we have no place to go but up." Edited December 20, 2015 by a700hitter