2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[Bellhorn04]

That doesn't matter one iota. The fact is, that they didn't fire him. The POBO/GM model is making the rounds at MLB because a lot of teams recognize that a team with a guy at the top signing off on most major operational moves and a guy below with knowledge of draft/player development is better than concentrating all of the responsibility on the GM.

 

And still, facts are facts, and the fact is that BC was not fired. People can make their tinfoil hat stories up as much as they want, but that's what happened.

 

He was force-fed a reassignment that was unacceptable to him.

[a700hitter]

He was force-fed a reassignment that was unacceptable to him.

He was supplanted. He didn't have the same responsibilities.

[Elktonnick]

He was supplanted. He didn't have the same responsibilities.

 

Dombrowski's hiring to a job which was superior to the one that Cherrington had was a demotion and a humiliation Ben couldn't bear. Ownership knew it and that's why they did it. Ben was fired from the job he had. The fact that he was offered another job in the organization with significant less authority doesn't alter that fact.

[MNSoxChief102]

Well... can't say I blame him if he gets a deal well north of what AZ offered. Would've liked to get him here, but not at the price he was looking for.

 

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2015/12/giants-sign-johnny-cueto.html

[MNSoxChief102]

Giants are going for the every other year deal again. 2010, 2012, 2014, 2016??? MadBum and Cueto are a pretty sweet 1-2 punch.

[cp176]

and there goes Johnny. So much for that dream - oh well.

[RedSoxNC84]

I liked the idea of Cueto, but he's a guy I feel like is much better off in the NL.

[Palodios]

6/130 seemed very reasonable for Cueto. If you consider that he's a full year younger than Samardzija, he cost nearly the same, despite a full 1 run lower ERA.

[User Name]

He was force-fed a reassignment that was unacceptable to him.

 

But it was still his decision. He could have stayed. Them's the facts.

[Kimmi]

It was a huge overstatement and oversimplification. Ben was able to remain at the helm for 3 last place finishes precisely because the Red Sox attendance and revenue was not being impacted to any great extent. As I stated many times before, merchandise revenue gets shared 30 ways. As long as MLB merchandise sales are up, the Red Sox' share increases regardless of whether sales of Red Sox merchandise goes down.

 

It is never easy to fire a good person like Ben. Ben got fired because he was doing a lousy job. He forced their hand. You just can't deal with the fact that his firing was the result of his own performance and nothing else.

 

You saying that Ben was fired as the result of his performance and nothing else is oversimplification. What would have happened if Dombrowski had not been fired by the Tigers? Would Ben still be here? I think that's a good possibility.

 

I know that Ben's performance in the short term (the past two years) is part of the reason why Dombrowski was brought in. Part of the reason was fan impatience. You can argue all you want that fans did not lose interest in the team, but that is simply not true. Sox fans just do not tolerate a "rebuild", and many don't understand what a great job Ben did in rebuilding this team and winning a WS Championship in the process.

 

I just read something very similar with what the Yankees are going through.

 

At the same time, the Yankees are not undergoing a full blown rebuild because they can’t. Ownership insists they can’t rebuild in the New York market — “We can’t rebuild here. That’s not what we’re about, our fan base,” said team president Randy Levine to Brian Heyman recently — and while I’m sure many fans would accept a true rebuild, I think they’re in the minority. The casual fan still dominates the market and casual fans usually aren’t patient.

 

And so they are trying to somehow remain competitive while "rebuilding". The George Steinbrenner way of throwing the most money and/or the most prospects at the "superstar" players is not the way to build a franchise. It starts with the farm and the cost controlled players.

[Thunder]

I liked the idea of Cueto, but he's a guy I feel like is much better off in the NL.

 

Definitely. He didn't even need 3 months to show that he couldn't really handle the extra hitter in the AL.

[Kimmi]

Hal saw what happened when he meddled. It was rumored that Cashman wanted to let ARod walk, and Hal/Levine came out and went over his head. The last deal over Cash's head was Rafael Soriano. At the last contract negotiation, Cashman wrested more control and has been remaking the team. Levine basically admitted the Yankees are in a rebuilding phase of sorts, which we are. I think everyone saw that when we shot our load in 2009 and added CC and Tex and then re-upped CC that the end of the contracts were going to be a painful period, especially with ARoid still on the books. I also think the MOST telling part of our "rebuild" was our inaction at the deadline. We had a playoff team that needed some assistance and we sat there and watched while patching holes from within. 15 yrs ago, Price finishes the yr as a Yankee and Severino is pitching in Detroit

 

Personally, I have always felt that Cashman is great GM and that if Levine would let him do his job, things in Yankeeland would be a lot better.

[jacksonianmarch]

UN, you're parsing hairs here. Let's put it this way. If you're a doctor and the brass calls you in and offers you the same pay to sweep the floors as your new assignment, you're going to quit. Technically, you made the decision to leave, but it's basically a demotion or leave.

[jacksonianmarch]

Kimmi, I agree. I think Cashman is a good GM to guide us through a reloading process. Yeah, we've still signed some big names, but we haven't really gone too big like George always wanted. And in doing so, we have a team with true minor league depth and strength enough to turn over once the old guys go down

[Elktonnick]

You saying that Ben was fired as the result of his performance and nothing else is oversimplification. What would have happened if Dombrowski had not been fired by the Tigers? Would Ben still be here? I think that's a good possibility.

 

I know that Ben's performance in the short term (the past two years) is part of the reason why Dombrowski was brought in. Part of the reason was fan impatience. You can argue all you want that fans did not lose interest in the team, but that is simply not true. Sox fans just do not tolerate a "rebuild", and many don't understand what a great job Ben did in rebuilding this team and winning a WS Championship in the process.

 

I just read something very similar with what the Yankees are going through.

 

 

 

And so they are trying to somehow remain competitive while "rebuilding". The George Steinbrenner way of throwing the most money and/or the most prospects at the "superstar" players is not the way to build a franchise. It starts with the farm and the cost controlled players.

 

On this one, I partly agree with you. Fan impatience was partly responsible for Ben's firing. This was demonstrated by the sharp drop in NESN viewership. But that wasn't the sole reason. I think Henry lost confidence that Ben had the capability to reverse the downturn in the team's on the field performance. This downturn if it continued would affect not on the relative value of the Red Sox franchise but also NESN. Moreover Henry didn't like to playing second fiddle to the Patriots. At least that's what I was reading in the various Boston media.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think if Ben wasn't "allowed to leave" Anthopoulos would be heading your team. Listen, Ben was great for what you needed. You won a title by random s*** luck, which is something that was missing from these parts for 8 decades. Seriously, how many people went to their graves not seeing one title and then the sox come up and have a truly lucky season? It is absolutely absurd. But that season gave Cherington a lot of rope to go out there and build a team. He was always build, build, build, but once a plan didn't work, a la Will Middlebrooks, he panicked and bought the shiniest toy to fill the hole, even if that toy was a fat slob. But in his tenure, he allowed guys brought in by Theo to grow and created a farm system that was rivaled maybe only by LA. But once he built and built, he couldn't bare to see his work get shipped off for a veteran. This is where his utility ended. He would be a great guy for the Reds. I could see him in Cincy. Barren farm system for the most part and a team on a full out rebuild. He would be perfect for them. Then in 3 yrs he gets shitcanned and someone goes out and wins with his pieces

[Spudboy]

I think if Ben wasn't "allowed to leave" Anthopoulos would be heading your team. Listen, Ben was great for what you needed. You won a title by random s*** luck, which is something that was missing from these parts for 8 decades. Seriously, how many people went to their graves not seeing one title and then the sox come up and have a truly lucky season? It is absolutely absurd. But that season gave Cherington a lot of rope to go out there and build a team. He was always build, build, build, but once a plan didn't work, a la Will Middlebrooks, he panicked and bought the shiniest toy to fill the hole, even if that toy was a fat slob. But in his tenure, he allowed guys brought in by Theo to grow and created a farm system that was rivaled maybe only by LA. But once he built and built, he couldn't bare to see his work get shipped off for a veteran. This is where his utility ended. He would be a great guy for the Reds. I could see him in Cincy. Barren farm system for the most part and a team on a full out rebuild. He would be perfect for them. Then in 3 yrs he gets shitcanned and someone goes out and wins with his pieces

 

 

Great stuff.

[Northern Star]

He was force-fed a reassignment that was unacceptable to him.

 

So sad.... BYE!!!!

[Northern Star]

Dombrowski's hiring to a job which was superior to the one that Cherrington had was a demotion and a humiliation Ben couldn't bear. Ownership knew it and that's why they did it. Ben was fired from the job he had. The fact that he was offered another job in the organization with significant less authority doesn't alter that fact.

 

What about the humiliation we all had to bear watching Hanley butcher LF and Porcello stink up the joint?

[User Name]

UN, you're parsing hairs here. Let's put it this way. If you're a doctor and the brass calls you in and offers you the same pay to sweep the floors as your new assignment, you're going to quit. Technically, you made the decision to leave, but it's basically a demotion or leave.

 

Apples and spaceships comparison.

[jacksonianmarch]

Apples and spaceships comparison.

 

LOL. Basically he was offered a demotion. A demotion from deciding what groceries to buy to becoming the errand boy actually buying the groceries.

[User Name]

LOL. Basically he was offered a demotion. A demotion from deciding what groceries to buy to becoming the errand boy actually buying the groceries.

 

....while making hundreds of thousands of dollars and having a job only 30 people in the whole world possess. Part of the reasoning (spitballing here) is that, like you say, he's better suited to a team that's actually rebuilding. He's not an automaton, he's a living, breathing person. If you know this, what makes you think he doesn't? If he didn't think he could find another FO job that granted him the same authority and power, do you think he would have left?

 

Also, you do remember the existence of Larry Lucchino right? He didn't decide on the purchase of *all* of the groceries before either.

[jacksonianmarch]

....while making hundreds of thousands of dollars and having a job only 30 people in the whole world possess. Part of the reasoning (spitballing here) is that, like you say, he's better suited to a team that's actually rebuilding. He's not an automaton, he's a living, breathing person. If you know this, what makes you think he doesn't? If he didn't think he could find another FO job that granted him the same authority and power, do you think he would have left?

 

Also, you do remember the existence of Larry Lucchino right? He didn't decide on the purchase of *all* of the groceries before either.

 

Of course he didn't. But Lucchino was basically marginalized after 2014 and Cherington had real autonomy (aside from obviously answering the ownership group) for the most part for 2015. He has a world series ring, one that he did deserve as for one season he pooped rainbows and shat lightning. So he will get another job. And like we both said, he is a builder. He might end up being like the Tuna in football. Won a title (or two in Tuna's case) then went on to teams where he built, left and after he left, the teams were built up again. Happened to the Pats, Jets and Cowboys

[Elktonnick]

Of course he didn't. But Lucchino was basically marginalized after 2014 and Cherington had real autonomy (aside from obviously answering the ownership group) for the most part for 2015. He has a world series ring, one that he did deserve as for one season he pooped rainbows and shat lightning. So he will get another job. And like we both said, he is a builder. He might end up being like the Tuna in football. Won a title (or two in Tuna's case) then went on to teams where he built, left and after he left, the teams were built up again. Happened to the Pats, Jets and Cowboys

 

Duquette had to wait 12 years before he had to wait before he got another chance and he was "lucky" to land the Orioles job. It remains to be seen whether Cherrington will get another opportunity. It depends on how he is truly perceived by ownership. As a general rule, however, the longer one is away the more difficult it is to land the top job. He reportedly has already turned down the nbr 2 job elsewhere. We'll see how many other serious offers come his way. It won't be easy the longer he stays out of basball

[jacksonianmarch]

Cherington has something on his hand that separates him from Duquette.

[a700hitter]

If Ben didn't leave the Red Sox because he had been essentially replaced and demoted, then he is just a quitter.

[a700hitter]

od possibility.

 

Sox fans just do not tolerate a "rebuild", and many don't understand what a great job Ben did in rebuilding this team and winning a WS Championship in the process.

Some Sox fans don't understand that Ben is the only GM in the history of the team to finish last 3 times. If you want to find a silver lining in that, he did make certain good moves, but his record is not a good one.

[Bellhorn04]

If Ben didn't leave the Red Sox because he had been essentially replaced and demoted, then he is just a quitter.

 

Right. I think most people can understand why he didn't want to stay.

[Elktonnick]

If Ben didn't leave the Red Sox because he had been essentially replaced and demoted, then he is just a quitter.

 

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

[Elktonnick]

Cherington has something on his hand that separates him from Duquette.

 

3 last place finishes. The way to look at it is: he took a championship team and so screwed it up that it finished last the next two seasons. With that on his resume would you really trust him to be the top man for your baseball organization.

Edited December 15, 2015 by Elktonnick