2016 Red Sox Hot Stove Discussion Thread

[a700hitter]

2012 Lots of people got hurt and the manager was a bozo

 

2013 Lots of people didn't get hurt and the Red Sox won a title. Given they were the best team in the league almost every day of that season, it is hard to call it lucky.

 

2014 underachievement plus the FO being wimps about their own organization which didn't help.

 

2015 has been marked by underachievement in a widespread way - in 2015 more than 2014. Blaming the players is fashionable (and they are not blameless) because it is easy to seem more reasonable by not wanting to can the manager. There is a lot of evidence that Farrell has not brought anything positive to the party except for 2013 where his status as a decent human being was a huge improvement on Valentine.

 

So, you advocate bringing in a new manager and coaching staff?

[iortiz]

2012 Lots of people got hurt and the manager was a bozo

 

2013 Lots of people didn't get hurt and the Red Sox won a title. Given they were the best team in the league almost every day of that season, it is hard to call it lucky.

 

2014 underachievement plus the FO being wimps about their own organization which didn't help.

 

2015 has been marked by underachievement in a widespread way - in 2015 more than 2014. Blaming the players is fashionable (and they are not blameless) because it is easy to seem more reasonable by not wanting to can the manager. There is a lot of evidence that Farrell has not brought anything positive to the party except for 2013 where his status as a decent human being was a huge improvement on Valentine.

When you see 2013 in the middle of those ugly years, what do you see? Do not take me wrong. I don't want to take away credit to anybody but to me the stars aligned that year. Most of the key players posted their best career numbers that year. Look at Koji, just for mention one.

 

For every failure you will find excuses, conjectures, etc. but the fact is that this team has been run and managed very poorly... that sk, is and has been the main problem in this team.

 

Said that, I always have seen in Porcello an untalented/mediocre(at best) pitcher, and his "youth" is not magically give him the talent that he never has had.

Edited August 10, 2015 by iortiz

[iortiz]

It is possible that Porcello just isn't that passionate about baseball, and decided to take the money the Red Sox were offering and coast? Happens somewhat often when a player gets a fat contract in the NBA. I know everyone wants to think that baseball holds itself to a higher standard because more white guys are playing, but maybe it's something to consider.

They should have waited a dozen of starts or something before giving him that contract. He only has 1 "good" year. One.

That extension was very dumb.

[Bellhorn04]

It is possible that Porcello just isn't that passionate about baseball, and decided to take the money the Red Sox were offering and coast? Happens somewhat often when a player gets a fat contract in the NBA. I know everyone wants to think that baseball holds itself to a higher standard because more white guys are playing, but maybe it's something to consider.

 

It's possible that Porcello's head got messed up by the transition to a new team and by the added pressure brought on by a big contract.

 

Some of this stuff is just about impossible to decipher.

 

Look at Josh Beckett. His first year in Boston he puts up a 5.01 ERA. His second year he puts up a 3.27 ERA and carries us to a World Series. After that he had plenty more ups and downs.

[cp176]

It's possible that Porcello's head got messed up by the transition to a new team and by the added pressure brought on by a big contract.

 

Some of this stuff is just about impossible to decipher.

 

Look at Josh Beckett. His first year in Boston he puts up a 5.01 ERA. His second year he puts up a 3.27 ERA and carries us to a World Series. After that he had plenty more ups and downs.

 

You could be right but I think that if he was that mentally fragile, he should not have been signed. Speaking of that - signing Hanley Ramirez was a mistake.

[Kimmi]

Clearly the team needs to have six or seven guys who can make starts: the way I look at next year:

 

- Owens and Rodriguez should be in Boston. There are things to learn (for the former, getting through the order 3rd time out, the latter avoiding the one bad inning spiral). I'm not putting Owens into Cooperstown on two starts, but it is very clear there is a guy with some big league swing and miss stuff there. Wright is a valuable swingman - and the way modern bullpen construction is, just having any sort of multi-inning guy is very nice to have.

 

- Buchholz was good this year when he was healthy. Obviously that is an annoying caveat, but there you go. The cost control is attractive too

 

So before discussing Porcello or Miley, it seems like there are four starters who can put something competitive out there, and would fall into line quite nicely if the Sox in fact DID sign a Cueto (which I would approve of). Now if Porcello just returns to being an above average starter, like he was before April of 2015, that gets you up to five. If Miley is your 5th starter, then things look less shabby. I think what people like about Miley is the competitiveness, and that he hangs in there - but yeah that does not offset the pedestrian numbers otherwise.

 

When I talked about not needing a slegehammer, the fact is if the Sox signed one pitcher who can be a reliable top of the rotation sort - an "ace" would be wonderful, but even a Hiroki Kuroda/Mark Buehrle sort - just a guy you don't have to worry about would be very helpful. I am not blind about the starting woes this season - I just tend to get annoyed at making run prevention just as simply reductive as talking about pitching linescores. The Red Sox entire run prevention operation failed - and the non-pitching part of it also needs to be addressed.

 

My biggest concern with your previous statement was with starting the year with two rookies in the rotation. I do not think that that is a good idea. Outside of that, I can live with what you're saying, though my preference would be to acquire both a #1 and a #2/3. I do think it's a no brainer to pick up Clay's option, but I don't want the team depending on him as our top of the rotation guy.

[Kimmi]

Depth is important. No one questions that. The fact remains that winning teams play their best players. They sometimes make difficult decisions not based upon spending when it comes to doing this. If Rodriguez and or Owens and or Wright are outperforming any other starting pitcher it would make no sense to have them start the year in Pawtucket.

 

Sometimes, but not always. Players with options many times start the season in AAA for the mere fact that they can be stashed there without the risk of losing them. It may not be right, but it's a fact of baseball.

[sk7326]

My biggest concern with your previous statement was with starting the year with two rookies in the rotation. I do not think that that is a good idea. Outside of that, I can live with what you're saying, though my preference would be to acquire both a #1 and a #2/3. I do think it's a no brainer to pick up Clay's option, but I don't want the team depending on him as our top of the rotation guy.

 

Also, for what its worth, Owens and Rodriguez by the end of the season is going to sail past the 140 inning mark or so. Without considering the eventual Tommy John operation (ducking lightning bolt), neither will be starting 2016 from ground zero, and these days a 160-170 innings cap is really not much of an encumberance at all (basically it's going to be where Miley ends up). I agree that the rotation around them needs more quality bulk to help augment the management of the kids. And the bullpen needs improvement to help also. In particular, Rodriguez won't be a rookie in 2016 in any meaningful way.

[a700hitter]

It's possible that Porcello's head got messed up by the transition to a new team and by the added pressure brought on by a big contract.

 

Some of this stuff is just about impossible to decipher.

 

Look at Josh Beckett. His first year in Boston he puts up a 5.01 ERA. His second year he puts up a 3.27 ERA and carries us to a World Series. After that he had plenty more ups and downs.

The big difference is that Beckett was already a top of the rotation hurler. Porcello was and is not.

[cp176]

Sometimes, but not always. Players with options many times start the season in AAA for the mere fact that they can be stashed there without the risk of losing them. It may not be right, but it's a fact of baseball.

 

You are right as we all know. It is a sad reality and a losing way to look at things. But it does happen. i know that you disagree with me with respect to the fact that it is a loser's way to look at things. That is ok. I absolutely believe that the best players have earned the right to play. Regardless of options or team control - the best players should always play. I also understand that it is a business and all that goes with it. I don't buy it at all.

[Northern Star]

The big difference is that Beckett was already a top of the rotation hurler. Porcello was and is not.

 

The point about pressure of new contract (and pressure of Boston) remains valid.

[Northern Star]

They need to get Panda off the team and will pay an exorbitant price doing it. No more charity from the Dodgers. They clearly learned nothing from the Crawford fiasco because here they are again shelling out stupid contracts to players who don't deserve them. Sandoval is poor on defense, doesn't hit enough, doesn't condition himself properly and has no motivation to do so. Boston has no recourse to fix this other than get him the f*** off the team, because I see him getting worse, not better, as the contract plays out.

[RedSoxNC84]

Koji is out for the rest of the season with a fractured wrist. No one to close out games on this team currently, not that it matters. Looks like the Sox will need to do a lot of bullpen shopping in the offseason too.

[Station 13]

Thanks so much, Justin Masteron, for loading the bases in the 9th in a 7-2 game forcing Uehara in the game that he shouldn't even be in.

[BOSOX11]

Are we prepared for another round of "closer by committee"?

[cp176]

Hanley Ramirez was traded early in his career by people that had some clue as to what type of person he was and was going to become. He brought a good return but if he had had the mentality to go along with his talent it is quite possible that he never would have been traded. Whether you like Panda or not, he filled an obvious need. He=a third baseman. He was and is sadly an upgrade over what we had at third. Ramirez can hit some of the time. Big f***ing deal. He is a malcontent who needs to be asked to change positions to help his team. If a dh was needed, then maybe but we don't and didn't need one. Now before anyone jumps as to how I know that he is a malcontent let me say that I am as sure of it as some of you are that the Red Sox coaching staff screwed up Porcello. We will not gain ground until he either is dhing or until he is gone. He cannot play left field, third base, or first base.

[reYoukilis]

Yeah, I think they tried to do, in 2015, what they did in 2013 which was to mix prospects with vets but this time they did it in a more desperate, impatient manner. They went splashy instead of solid, high character guys with lots of intangibles and defensive skill. That and they made pitching a much bigger priority.

[cp176]

Yeah, I think they tried to do, in 2015, what they did in 2013 which was to mix prospects with vets but this time they did it in a more desperate, impatient manner. They went splashy instead of solid, high character guys with lots of intangibles and defensive skill. That and they made pitching a much bigger priority.

 

Very true! no place on anybody's stat sheet showing us how to measure character. People who know athletes know it when they see it.

[iortiz]

Justin Masterson DFAed. Well It took more than I expected. Way to give up 10 M.

[waltr]

Vic, Napoli, Mastrerson gone. Breslow and Ogando should be next

[SoxHop]

Koji is out for the rest of the season with a fractured wrist. .

 

Great.... what's next for this season......?

[Kimmi]

You are right as we all know. It is a sad reality and a losing way to look at things. But it does happen. i know that you disagree with me with respect to the fact that it is a loser's way to look at things. That is ok. I absolutely believe that the best players have earned the right to play. Regardless of options or team control - the best players should always play. I also understand that it is a business and all that goes with it. I don't buy it at all.

 

It's certainly not fair, but I wouldn't say it's the loser's way to look at things. All teams do it. I think it would be negligent of the FO to DFA and risk losing a very good player when they don't have to. What then happens when the kept player struggles or gets injured?

 

It's similar to what happened with Castillo this season. He started in AAA because he had options where Victorino or Nava didn't.

 

I think it particularly occurs a lot with relief pitchers.

[Kimmi]

The point about pressure of new contract (and pressure of Boston) remains valid.

 

Hey, we agree on something.

[Kimmi]

Hanley Ramirez was traded early in his career by people that had some clue as to what type of person he was and was going to become. He brought a good return but if he had had the mentality to go along with his talent it is quite possible that he never would have been traded.

 

Isn't Cherington one of the people responsible for trading Hanley in the Beckett deal to begin with? So, he had some clue back then that Hanley would be a "malcontent", but magically lost that clue and became clueless about him this season?

[Kimmi]

Very true! no place on anybody's stat sheet showing us how to measure character. People who know athletes know it when they see it.

 

Do you honestly think that the Sox do not employ scouts at all?

 

If that's the case, how did they do such a good job of getting all of these high character, intangibles guys in 2013?

[cp176]

It's certainly not fair, but I wouldn't say it's the loser's way to look at things. All teams do it. I think it would be negligent of the FO to DFA and risk losing a very good player when they don't have to. What then happens when the kept player struggles or gets injured?

 

It's similar to what happened with Castillo this season. He started in AAA because he had options where Victorino or Nava didn't.

 

I think it particularly occurs a lot with relief pitchers.

 

I really don't think that Castillo was or is a stand out very good player. Right at this moment, Rodriguez is their best pitcher.

[cp176]

Do you honestly think that the Sox do not employ scouts at all?

 

If that's the case, how did they do such a good job of getting all of these high character, intangibles guys in 2013?

 

 

I don't think that I said that they didn't employ scouts. If this is what they produce, it doesn't seem to be working.

[cp176]

Isn't Cherington one of the people responsible for trading Hanley in the Beckett deal to begin with? So, he had some clue back then that Hanley would be a "malcontent", but magically lost that clue and became clueless about him this season?

 

 

How loud a voice do you really think Ben Cherington had at that time?

[SoxnCycles]

How loud a voice do you really think Ben Cherington had at that time?

 

How much say he had in the matter isn't the point.

 

If there were discussions in the Sox FO about Hanley's attitude and that factored into the reasons for trading him, I think Cherrington would be aware of that.

[cp176]

How much say he had in the matter isn't the point.

 

If there were discussions in the Sox FO about Hanley's attitude and that factored into the reasons for trading him, I think Cherrington would be aware of that.

 

I understand what you are saying. I will say that when Hanley Ramirez was traded from Boston, his attitude and overall work ethic was a major topic of discussion for the fan base at that time. We saw him quite a bit in Portland. I would be surprised if the people running the front office didn't have discussions about his overall approach. It doesn't make any difference now how much Ben was or was not aware of. I get the fact that you support Kimmi with respect to much that she says. I like her too and even agree with her sometimes. I'm just not a big Hanley Ramirez fan and I think that it was a mistake to bring him back.