2014 Offseason Thread

[example1]

I count 3, maybe 4 total at most.

 

What's your point? You do not speak for the entire board, Fred.

 

I thought that you said that you would not continue to engage in all this crap. Why not just drop it? It's boring.

 

Well said.

 

A700 might be right that the acrimony is relatively mild. It seems to be because there are only about 10 people who contribute regularly. I have never had a beef with User Name, but I can see that much of the tension there is between he and SBF, a700 and iortiz (probably a few more).

 

I'm just looking for good/interesting/responsive dialogue about baseball. I hate it when it gets personal because it's like acknowledging that we can't have a discussion based on facts and the game. User Name seems pretty reactive at times and willing to make it personal, but he's not that way to everyone and I often understand why he gets frustrated. On the other end, SBF trusts his supposedly awesome player evaluation skills to make generalizing and definitive statements about players or management without waiting for the facts and results before making definitive evaluations. In that respect it strikes some as logically unsound and therefore hard to take too seriously.

 

I try to roll with the punches, but a700 and I have a long history of pretty good arguments, sometimes becoming personal (regretfully) but we've worked them out every time. It's not worth getting to the point of ignoring one another. At that point the board is broken.

[User Name]

Please post more.

[a700hitter]

Well said.

 

A700 might be right that the acrimony is relatively mild. It seems to be because there are only about 10 people who contribute regularly. I have never had a beef with User Name, but I can see that much of the tension there is between he and SBF, a700 and iortiz (probably a few more).

 

I'm just looking for good/interesting/responsive dialogue about baseball. I hate it when it gets personal because it's like acknowledging that we can't have a discussion based on facts and the game. User Name seems pretty reactive at times and willing to make it personal, but he's not that way to everyone and I often understand why he gets frustrated. On the other end, SBF trusts his supposedly awesome player evaluation skills to make generalizing and definitive statements about players or management without waiting for the facts and results before making definitive evaluations. In that respect it strikes some as logically unsound and therefore hard to take too seriously.

 

I try to roll with the punches, but a700 and I have a long history of pretty good arguments, sometimes becoming personal (regretfully) but we've worked them out every time. It's not worth getting to the point of ignoring one another. At that point the board is broken.

You have a lot of knowledge and good ideas. If they don't line up with my view of things, that's alright. I like getting different view points. People can always learn from each other if they respect each other.

[Palodios]

Back to baseball... what's the deal with Cliff Lee? Is he more likely to be on his way to TJS or the All star game? I haven't heard rumors around him at all, and nothing on his health.

 

We keep talking about Hamels, but a healthy Cliff Lee seems like a much better fit. His contract is shorter at a higher AAV, meaning the Phillies would probably prefer to get rid of him while they're rebuilding. He's older, but AL proven.

[cp176]

I think we need to agree to accept the fact that most of us are Red Sox fans. We have differing opinions, and that is what makes a forum work. If everyone has the same opinion, then there is no meaningful discussion. I enjoy greatly Fred's rants but usually agree with User Name. I happily consider them both friends.

 

Baseball is a passionate sport...especially Red Sox baseball. When I graduated from college in the 1970s, I moved to Portland, Maine, and took a job at a publishing company. I would regularly stop into a store on Congress Street before work for a cup of coffee and a Table Talk pie. The crowd there would usually be discussing Red Sox baseball. Some of the crowd included Yankee fans. This was before the internet and baseball forums. The discussions would almost always get very heated, but we all recognized our mutual need to express our baseball opinions. We all accepted and respected our differences.

 

I hope we all can continue to discuss and respect each other here. If we all have to agree, the discussions will become boring.

 

Times certainly have changed with technological advancements. Face to face discussions about our baseball passions were always fun and usually ended in a friendly way. There certainly are plusses and minuses to the use of the internet. Being nonjudgmental, listening, learning and formulating your own opinions seems like a pretty good way to go. Back to the game - I have a little personal interest in Tommy Layne and hope that he hangs on to one of those 40 man roster spots. He is good man - good family man and a decent lefty to have in the pen.

[BSN07]

Back to baseball... what's the deal with Cliff Lee? Is he more likely to be on his way to TJS or the All star game? I haven't heard rumors around him at all, and nothing on his health.

 

We keep talking about Hamels, but a healthy Cliff Lee seems like a much better fit. His contract is shorter at a higher AAV, meaning the Phillies would probably prefer to get rid of him while they're rebuilding. He's older, but AL proven.

 

If he had ended the year healthy we probably be hearing tons on him. But it's very doubtful anyone will give up anything or take on his salary until he proves he is healthy and effective.

[Bellhorn04]

Back to baseball... what's the deal with Cliff Lee? Is he more likely to be on his way to TJS or the All star game? I haven't heard rumors around him at all, and nothing on his health.

 

We keep talking about Hamels, but a healthy Cliff Lee seems like a much better fit. His contract is shorter at a higher AAV, meaning the Phillies would probably prefer to get rid of him while they're rebuilding. He's older, but AL proven.

 

Lee's contract is $25 million for 2015 but there is a $12.5 million buyout for the 2016 option. So if he bombs in 2015 he could cost you $37.5 million for one year.

[Spudboy]

Back to baseball... what's the deal with Cliff Lee? Is he more likely to be on his way to TJS or the All star game? I haven't heard rumors around him at all, and nothing on his health.

 

We keep talking about Hamels, but a healthy Cliff Lee seems like a much better fit. His contract is shorter at a higher AAV, meaning the Phillies would probably prefer to get rid of him while they're rebuilding. He's older, but AL proven.

 

 

Good and timely post. I've been wondering about Lee as well. I do not know the specifics. It seems that the Phillies are waiting for Lee to demonstrate health this spring so they can move him.

[Spudboy]

Times certainly have changed with technological advancements. Face to face discussions about our baseball passions were always fun and usually ended in a friendly way. There certainly are plusses and minuses to the use of the internet. Being nonjudgmental, listening, learning and formulating your own opinions seems like a pretty good way to go. Back to the game - I have a little personal interest in Tommy Layne and hope that he hangs on to one of those 40 man roster spots. He is good man - good family man and a decent lefty to have in the pen.

 

I like Layne too. Although I have never met him. I like the way that he pitches. I saw him pitch a few times for Pawtucket. He was close to or lights out. He has some mileage on him. But maybe he can be used successfully as a Miller replacement.

[seabeachfred]

I was impressed with what I saw of Layne as well, but as I've been reminded so many times, building a bullpen is often a crapshoot. Miller is gone and Breslow is coming of a very bad season so maybe Layne needs to be given a long look this Spring. Besides, having two left relievers doesn't seem to bad to me. As for our needed starting pitcher I saw Cliff Lee's name mentioned already. Is he sound? Could we get two solid seasons from him? What would it cost to get him? His contract is more economical than Hamels is but he is also older by a few years and his arm has been banged up some. One thing most of us do agree with is that we do need a No. 1 ace. I just wonder if Lee would be that guy, but hope that Cherington hasn't decided to just roll the dice and go with what we now have.

[Spudboy]

Fred you are correct. Building a pen is almost always a crap shoot as relief by nature are the bottom rung of the pitching ladder. They can be good and they can be bad.

 

Of course there are some pitchers that are better bets. The hope is that our team will build a pen that will come in and close the door and even stem the bleeding. That is a lot to ask of most of these guys.

 

I keep mentioning Burt Badenhop. I think that he remains unsigned. The Sox still need one or two arms in the pen. He did the job last year so why not bring him back?

 

My guess is that the Sox are seeking cheaper arms. And I think that they believe that they can get that type of guy in the free agent market or will use some of the minor league depth ( not unlike Layne ) to fill the pen out.

[Palodios]

It looks to me like the Red Sox are done with the pen. Koji, Taz, Mujica, Workman, Layne, Breslow, Varvano make up the core, with the prospects making up the fringes.

[Spudboy]

It looks to me like the Red Sox are done with the pen. Koji, Taz, Mujica, Workman, Layne, Breslow, Varvano make up the core, with the prospects making up the fringes.

 

This is probably exactly what is happening.

 

One thing that concerns me is that Tazawa appears to be the only one that is most likely to do what he has always done.

 

I'm not sure what we will get from each of the others. Even Koji is somewhat of a question mark.

[Elktonnick]

While I don't necessarily take Cherrington at face value when he says that the Sox aren't looking for a nbr 1 starrter, I think the FO believes that their pitching prospects are better long term values in 2016 and beyond then any of the big name starters currently available. Unless they can pull off a deal involving either Zimmerman or Hamels that doesn't involve giving up their cherished prospects I guess we have what we have. If both the Red Sox and Yankees are really done shopping then both Shields and Scherzer may have to settle for less then they hoped. Now would that be a delightful development.

[seabeachfred]

While I don't necessarily take Cherrington at face value when he says that the Sox aren't looking for a nbr 1 starrter, I think the FO believes that their pitching prospects are better long term values in 2016 and beyond then any of the big name starters currently available. Unless they can pull off a deal involving either Zimmerman or Hamels that doesn't involve giving up their cherished prospects I guess we have what we have. If both the Red Sox and Yankees are really done shopping then both Shields and Scherzer may have to settle for less then they hoped. Now would that be a delightful development.

 

Of course Elk, we all know that Boras' game plan is to extract the most money from whatever team that falls for his snake oil, and he is not reluctant to drag this thing with Scherzer out until ST if necessary. What I've heard is that the FO thinks the 2016 FA pitching crop will be more fruitful for the pickings, but we've seen in the past that many teams sign their FA to extensions and before you know it the rich crop of pitchers are dried up like a prune. I still would like to see the Red Sox strike while the iron's hot and either sign a FA or trade for a pitcher that could be inserted into the No. 1 role. People mention Buchholz, Kelly, Miley, Masterson and Porcello and say that seems adequate. They may be forgetting that injuries occur and two of those people mentioned are coming off injuries, one of them always seemingly coming up lame. An ace might make us the favorites for the division title and keep us out of that WC maze that only seems to work now for the Giants----but, of course, they have the ace to get them through that.

[seabeachfred]

It looks to me like the Red Sox are done with the pen. Koji, Taz, Mujica, Workman, Layne, Breslow, Varvano make up the core, with the prospects making up the fringes.

 

Mujica was pretty scary until late in the season, Workman is much better suited for the pen than the rotation where he was terrible last season, and Breslow is coming off a terrible season after a solid one in 2013. I don't know much about Varvano but he is not rated as an end all either. Keeping our eyes open for good relievers is a must I believe because of the questions some of us have about our starting rotation.

[Palodios]

Woah, here is a big quote from Buster Olney. Huge news. More power to Ben, less to Loops.

 

“recent machinations within the Boston organization” seem to be leading to “less influence” for Larry Lucchino, the Red Sox president/CEO.

[Elktonnick]

LOL, This reminds me of Kremlinology way back when, judging who held the real power by the lineup on Lenin's tomb.

[cp176]

LOL, This reminds me of Kremlinology way back when, judging who held the real power by the lineup on Lenin's tomb.

 

Kind of like a mad dash or even a muddle F_ _ _. Kerensky, Trotsky, or the after thought Stalin.

[cp176]

This is probably exactly what is happening.

 

One thing that concerns me is that Tazawa appears to be the only one that is most likely to do what he has always done.

 

I'm not sure what we will get from each of the others. Even Koji is somewhat of a question mark.

 

You couldn't ask for more than what Koji has given us for sure but I too worry a little about him coming into the season. He is not a young man by any means but I like a closer who throws strikes.

[cp176]

I was impressed with what I saw of Layne as well, but as I've been reminded so many times, building a bullpen is often a crapshoot. Miller is gone and Breslow is coming of a very bad season so maybe Layne needs to be given a long look this Spring. Besides, having two left relievers doesn't seem to bad to me. As for our needed starting pitcher I saw Cliff Lee's name mentioned already. Is he sound? Could we get two solid seasons from him? What would it cost to get him? His contract is more economical than Hamels is but he is also older by a few years and his arm has been banged up some. One thing most of us do agree with is that we do need a No. 1 ace. I just wonder if Lee would be that guy, but hope that Cherington hasn't decided to just roll the dice and go with what we now have.

 

Tommy Layne's story is kind of neat. His wife was and maybe still is a practicing dentist who gave up work to follow Tommy and his dream. She took some baby sitting jobs this past summer for something to do. One of them was for my daughter. When he got the call up to the big club, the excitement was incredible. What a jump for them. Good people. I don't know if he will make it up there or not but a very nica story.

[seabeachfred]

Tommy Layne's story is kind of neat. His wife was and maybe still is a practicing dentist who gave up work to follow Tommy and his dream. She took some baby sitting jobs this past summer for something to do. One of them was for my daughter. When he got the call up to the big club, the excitement was incredible. What a jump for them. Good people. I don't know if he will make it up there or not but a very nica story.

 

You always like to see people like this come out on top, and she sounds like the type of wife all men really need. Hope he gets a long look this coming Spring CP.

[seabeachfred]

Woah, here is a big quote from Buster Olney. Huge news. More power to Ben, less to Loops.

 

Check it out and see how authentic and accurate it is. Certainly will be good news for all of us because we know that Lucchino's machinations has caused the team harm every time he has stuck his nose in baseball operations. However, haven't we seen this act before.....Larry is put back in his office and within a year, two at the most, he has once again infused himself into areas he has no business being involved in----and it seems to take Henry two or more years to finally block the guy and that always seems only temporarily. I do think that maybe this time with Lucchino's miserable and ham handed attempt to get Lester signed with that puny offering might finally be the thing that keeps him out of BA.

 

Losing our ace was tough to take.......BUT, I got off the TV a few minutes ago and was tuned into the Dodgers station that goes 24/7 and sometimes they actually put a good game on. Today was one such example, the Tigers as the opponent. Max Scherzer pitched seven knock out innings of four hit ball and made complete asses of the Dodger hitters. Expensive or not, if Henry really wants to rectify the miserable handling of what went on with Jon, he should seriously consider putting up the cash and sign Max. I actually believe he could be the missing piece that could actually propel us to the top.

[cp176]

Check it out and see how authentic and accurate it is. Certainly will be good news for all of us because we know that Lucchino's machinations has caused the team harm every time he has stuck his nose in baseball operations. However, haven't we seen this act before.....Larry is put back in his office and within a year, two at the most, he has once again infused himself into areas he has no business being involved in----and it seems to take Henry two or more years to finally block the guy and that always seems only temporarily. I do think that maybe this time with Lucchino's miserable and ham handed attempt to get Lester signed with that puny offering might finally be the thing that keeps him out of BA.

 

Losing our ace was tough to take.......BUT, I got off the TV a few minutes ago and was tuned into the Dodgers station that goes 24/7 and sometimes they actually put a good game on. Today was one such example, the Tigers as the opponent. Max Scherzer pitched seven knock out innings of four hit ball and made complete asses of the Dodger hitters. Expensive or not, if Henry really wants to rectify the miserable handling of what went on with Jon, he should seriously consider putting up the cash and sign Max. I actually believe he could be the missing piece that could actually propel us to the top.

 

I really would love to see him in a Red Sox uniform. With him and Porcello leading off (a little Detroit east), we would have a potentially very powerful team for a long while.

[Palodios]

Giants -- "We're out on Shields and Scherzer."

Dodgers -- "We're out on Shields and Scherzer."

Yankees -- "We're out on Shields and Scherzer."

 

Detroit -- "We haven't talked to Scherzer in a few weeks, but the door is still open."

Nationals -- "No one is talking about us, but we're considering trading Zimmerman and signing Scherzer."

Red Sox -- "We're monitoring the pitching situation closely, but not engaged at this time."

Padres -- "Booyaka."

 

 

It is going to be an interesting few months.

[example1]

If he had ended the year healthy we probably be hearing tons on him. But it's very doubtful anyone will give up anything or take on his salary until he proves he is healthy and effective.

 

But isn't that the problem? If he's a buy low candidate who DOES bounce back then by all means they should be on him. If he comes back to pitch like Cliff Lee then he's going to cost 85% of what Hamels will cost, which will be equally prohibitive for a team as cautious as the Red Sox are now. If the Sox believe he's going to be healthy I wouldn't have any trouble with the Sox spending to get Lee. He's a front end starter (at least in terms of leadership and demeanor) and even if he's not the Cliff Lee from 5 years ago he's a really formidable starter. I like the shorter contract for higher AAV.

[User Name]

Lee's contract is $25 million for 2015 but there is a $12.5 million buyout for the 2016 option. So if he bombs in 2015 he could cost you $37.5 million for one year.

 

For that option to activate though, he'd have to pitch 200 innings.

[seabeachfred]

But isn't that the problem? If he's a buy low candidate who DOES bounce back then by all means they should be on him. If he comes back to pitch like Cliff Lee then he's going to cost 85% of what Hamels will cost, which will be equally prohibitive for a team as cautious as the Red Sox are now. If the Sox believe he's going to be healthy I wouldn't have any trouble with the Sox spending to get Lee. He's a front end starter (at least in terms of leadership and demeanor) and even if he's not the Cliff Lee from 5 years ago he's a really formidable starter. I like the shorter contract for higher AAV.

 

For a year or two Lee could be that front end starter we need badly but wouldn't it be wise not to jump in right away and see how he is coming along in ST. Both the Red Sox and Phillies train in Florida and will see each other a couple of times this March. I also wonder if Phillies GM Amaro is going to once again try to play Black Bart and hold us or whatever team wants Lee for a king's ransom. Amazing the guy still has his job after the way he kept trying to win with the same old standbys who have turned the Phillies into a NL joke. Still, though we should move with some caution, the fact remains that we can certainly use a No. 1 starter because right now we don't have anything except a bunch of threes and fours in my opinion.

[BSN07]

Reports say Shields already has 110M deal in hand. If it wasn't a no before it should be a no now for sure.

[Palodios]

We hear absolutely no one in on Shields, and a mystery team comes along with an offer he should probably accept. Unless that team is the Astros, I don't believe it.