Besides 2004, what is your favorite Red Sox memory?

[rjortiz]

No, I've read plenty of Dojji's posts. Are you going to reply to every one of his posts now with your list of the 6 deadly faults? Lighten up a bit...we're all just bored and re-hashing old history here for something to do.

 

No one else argues for the sake of arguing, and then vomits 1,000 words that highlight how much they don't understand the topic.

[Palodios]

No one else argues for the sake of arguing

 

I disagree.

 

 

See what I did there?

[rjortiz]

I disagree.

 

 

See what I did there?

 

Actually, for it to be like Dojji, you would have to write:

 

"I agree with you, but I'm going try to come up some reasons why I disagree with you."

[seabeachfred]

The Beckett trade should never be second-guessed. As you implied, it resulted in a championship. Also, there's no way of knowing what it would have taken to obtain Halladay or Felix.

 

It's amazing the fascination we have with analyzing things that might have been or not been. A remarkably pointless exercise, if you really think about it.

 

Bellhorn, any time you make a trade and the guys you get are the difference in winning a World Series Title you take it, cherish it, roll with it and be thankful and grateful at the same time. We don't make that trade for Beckett and Lowell we won win it all in 2007----and really, can anyone disagree with that?

[seabeachfred]

I don't. If we'd had Pedro, even if he'd pitched exactly as well as he did in the NL East (which I doubt) he'd have been the only pitcher in our rotation with an ERA south of 4.

 

We had the bats to contend but we weren't even close to having the arms.

 

Since we tied for the division lead and lost it because the Yankees beat us one more time than we beat them, I think having Pedro in 2005 would have netted us the division title. From there anything could happen. Remember the White Sox won it all that year and they were both a talented and a flawed team at the same time. After 2005, however, katy bar the door.

[seabeachfred]

why you gotta be a jerk about it??? I'm talking to you seabeachfred!!!

 

How that again Mam? Try pitching a penny or two and keep your brain occupied.

[Bellhorn04]

Since we tied for the division lead and lost it because the Yankees beat us one more time than we beat them, I think having Pedro in 2005 would have netted us the division title. From there anything could happen. Remember the White Sox won it all that year and they were both a talented and a flawed team at the same time. After 2005, however, katy bar the door.

 

katy bar the door indeed.

[mvp 78]

Now, twenty-three for yours, mister, skidoo! We don't want your company; not today.

[Dojji]

Since we tied for the division lead and lost it because the Yankees beat us one more time than we beat them, I think having Pedro in 2005 would have netted us the division title. From there anything could happen. Remember the White Sox won it all that year and they were both a talented and a flawed team at the same time. After 2005, however, katy bar the door.

 

Even if you're exactly right, teams that get to the playoffs on the basis of their bats, with adequate at best pitching, tend to be losing propositions in the playoffs. We've all seen it.

 

you need those 2 top arms to be a serious world series chamion contender, and regardless of regular season performance, the Sox were just not in that kind of position. If Big Schill was able to magic himself back into top starting pitching shape at some time in the postseason maybe it's possible that that plus Pedro puts us over the top, but that's officially too many moving parts in this game of what-if. Pedro or no Pedro, we didn't have Schilling and we didn't have Lowe, and their replacements weren't up to what was asked them in the playoffs.

Edited February 15, 2014 by Dojji

[a700hitter]

Even if you're exactly right, teams that get to the playoffs on the basis of their bats, with adequate at best pitching, tend to be losing propositions in the playoffs. We've all seen it.

 

you need those 2 top arms to be a serious world series chamion contender, and regardless of regular season performance, the Sox were just not in that kind of position. If Big Schill was able to magic himself back into top starting pitching shape at some time in the postseason maybe it's possible that that plus Pedro puts us over the top, but that's officially too many moving parts in this game of what-if. Pedro or no Pedro, we didn't have Schilling and we didn't have Lowe, and their replacements weren't up to what was asked them in the playoffs.

Doji, 2005 Pedro would not have made us worse. We had an all-time great offense and the teams that won that year were meh. I think you are closing your eyes to the posibilities? We know what the reality was. 2005 Pedro would not have made that reality worse.

[rjortiz]

Doji, 2005 Pedro would not have made us worse. We had an all-time great offense and the teams that won that year were meh. I think you are closing your eyes to the posibilities? We know what the reality was. 2005 Pedro would not have made that reality worse.

 

It's impossible to say what would happen for sure, but given the results of the other players, Pedro most likely pushes us over the top in the AL East. That series against NY on the final weekend is probably irrelevant. We would have been able to set up our rotation for a home series against the Angels. Pedro, Schilling, and Wakefield/Arroyo/Wells is more than good enough to beat them in a series. More often than not, we probably don't win the World Series, but that's true of any MLB playoff. The important point is that we would have had a better chance with a legitimate ace at the top of the rotation.

[Bellhorn04]

If they had re-signed Pedro, it still might not have meant a World Series title in 2005. Furthermore, they might not have made the Beckett trade, so we might not have won in 2007 either. Keep in mind the Butterfly Effect - if you change one thing, many other things change too.

[Dojji]

Doji, 2005 Pedro would not have made us worse. We had an all-time great offense and the teams that won that year were meh. I think you are closing your eyes to the posibilities? We know what the reality was. 2005 Pedro would not have made that reality worse.

 

Pedro would have improved our biggest area of weakness. but that area was so weak that I still don't think it's realistic that we go all the way.

 

I don't think people really internalize just how bad our 2005 rotation was. go look up the numbers sometime -- they were not pretty.

[Bellhorn04]

Pedro would have improved our biggest area of weakness. but that area was so weak that I still don't think it's realistic that we go all the way.

 

I don't think people really internalize just how bad our 2005 rotation was. go look up the numbers sometime -- they were not pretty.

 

rjortiz is correct that if we did have Pedro, and had clinched the division, our playoff rotation would have been set up much better, because we would also have had Schilling, who came back healthy at the end of the season.

[a700hitter]

If they had re-signed Pedro, it still might not have meant a World Series title in 2005. Furthermore, they might not have made the Beckett trade, so we might not have won in 2007 either. Keep in mind the Butterfly Effect - if you change one thing, many other things change too.

Of course that is true. If Theo had not thrown his his hissy fit after 2005, we might not have traded Hanley for Beckett and 2007 would not have happened. There frequently are cascading consequences of transactions. We can't even be certain about Pedro's impact on the 2005 team. Projecting what retaining him would have done to the team's fortunes down the road is really an imprecise exercise.

[Dojji]

I dunno guys, Pedro Martinez was never exactly all he was supposed to be in the playoffs. He had that one run in 99, but he just never seemed to me to be the best pitcher in the world when the lights got brighter in October.

 

Career numbers 6-4 3.86. Not bad for an ordinary pitcher, but for FREAKING PEDRO????? How can a pitcher who can do the things Pedro Martinez could do in his prime look that mortal in the playoffs?

 

And we are talking about the last truly effective year of his career, when he really hadn't come up all that big in either 03 or 04. and while you can write off 03 to an extent because he got Gumped, let's be blunt here -- Pedro Martinez was a huge part of the reason we came down to the brink in 04. His inability to carry us is a significant factor in why we were down 0-3 and why Curt Schilling had to do what he did to save us. And had a lot to do with why we even acquired Schilling TBPH.

 

So no, I don't think Pedro ruling the playoffs in 05 is any kind of slam dunk. He certainly hadn't done it recently in his Red Sox career.

Edited February 16, 2014 by Dojji

[Behindenemylines]

MLB Network last night finished their count down of the greatest games ever, and Game 6 of the 1975 WS was number one. Even though the Sox would lose in 7, Game 6 is a historic moment not only in Sox history but baseball history.

[VA Sox Fan]

MLB Network last night finished their count down of the greatest games ever, and Game 6 of the 1975 WS was number one. Even though the Sox would lose in 7, Game 6 is a historic moment not only in Sox history but baseball history.

 

I saw that. Can't say enough great things about that game!

[seabeachfred]

I dunno guys, Pedro Martinez was never exactly all he was supposed to be in the playoffs. He had that one run in 99, but he just never seemed to me to be the best pitcher in the world when the lights got brighter in October.

 

Career numbers 6-4 3.86. Not bad for an ordinary pitcher, but for FREAKING PEDRO????? How can a pitcher who can do the things Pedro Martinez could do in his prime look that mortal in the playoffs?

 

And we are talking about the last truly effective year of his career, when he really hadn't come up all that big in either 03 or 04. and while you can write off 03 to an extent because he got Gumped, let's be blunt here -- Pedro Martinez was a huge part of the reason we came down to the brink in 04. His inability to carry us is a significant factor in why we were down 0-3 and why Curt Schilling had to do what he did to save us. And had a lot to do with why we even acquired Schilling TBPH.

 

So no, I don't think Pedro ruling the playoffs in 05 is any kind of slam dunk. He certainly hadn't done it recently in his Red Sox career.

 

No Dojii, not a slam dunk in the playoffs but when I answered with a missive of my own earlier in the thread I said having Pedro in 2005 would have netted us the ALJ East Division Title. Since we tied for it and lost because the Yankees won the season series, I have no doubt Martinez would have at least made the difference in one or two games. If he made it in three or four we would have won comfortably. Of course, after 2005 we rapidly fell away because of a whole host of arm miseries.

[Dojji]

Both of other teams in the playoffs in the AL had a better pythag than either NYY or BOS. Both BOS and NYY overperformed their pythag by exactly 5 games. Subtracting another 50 runs or so over the course of the season, which is actually very generous, doesn't really change much. Either the Angels or the White Sox would still be objectively better teams, whether we happen to get a now-meaningless triangle shaped piece of textile or not.

[Spitball]

MLB Network last night finished their count down of the greatest games ever, and Game 6 of the 1975 WS was number one. Even though the Sox would lose in 7, Game 6 is a historic moment not only in Sox history but baseball history.

 

I remember watching this game on the big screen television at The Ground Round on Route 1 in Lynnfield. I had a huge crush on this one server. I think I was making progress with her until one of my buddies told her I already had a girlfriend.

[SoxSport]

MLB Network last night finished their count down of the greatest games ever, and Game 6 of the 1975 WS was number one. Even though the Sox would lose in 7, Game 6 is a historic moment not only in Sox history but baseball history.

 

Too bad Darrell Johnson (was that his name?) lost the 7th game bringing a rookie reliever, Jim Burton, in to face Morgan (Rose?) in the 9th--with two 20 game winners sitting in the bullpen. McNamara did the same thing 11 years later, replacing an unhittable Clemens with Schiraldi. Both got fired the next spring. I remember it well.

[Dojji]

Too bad Darrell Johnson (was that his name?) lost the 7th game bringing a rookie reliever, Jim Burton, in to face Morgan (Rose?) in the 9th--with two 20 game winners sitting in the bullpen. McNamara did the same thing 11 years later, replacing an unhittable Clemens with Schiraldi. Both got fired the next spring. I remember it well.

 

Which might have informed gump's decision to stick with Pedro in 03.

 

As long as it didn't work, everything can be criticized.

[Bellhorn04]

Too bad Darrell Johnson (was that his name?) lost the 7th game bringing a rookie reliever, Jim Burton, in to face Morgan (Rose?) in the 9th--with two 20 game winners sitting in the bullpen. McNamara did the same thing 11 years later, replacing an unhittable Clemens with Schiraldi. Both got fired the next spring. I remember it well.

 

You don't remember it quite as well as you think. Let Baseball-Reference be your friend!

 

Johnson made it halfway through the 1976 season before being canned for Zimmer.

McNamara made it all the way through the 1987 season and halfway through the 1988 season before being canned for Morgan.

[seabeachfred]

You don't remember it quite as well as you think. Let Baseball-Reference be your friend!

 

Johnson made it halfway through the 1976 season before being canned for Zimmer.

McNamara made it all the way through the 1987 season and halfway through the 1988 season before being canned for Morgan.

 

They all should have been shot.

[jacksonianmarch]

I have two favorite memories. One of my first baseball memories was when I was 5 and I watched the ball get through Buckner. The other was the Boone homer.

[seabeachfred]

I have two favorite memories. One of my first baseball memories was when I was 5 and I watched the ball get through Buckner. The other was the Boone homer.

 

How about when the umpires called your A-Rod out after he ridiculously slapped the ball out of Arroyo's hand like the second rate bush leaguer that he is? Liked that one too Jacko????

[Bellhorn04]

I have two favorite memories. One of my first baseball memories was when I was 5 and I watched the ball get through Buckner. The other was the Boone homer.

 

Yeah, too bad about that injury Boone suffered and what happened when they replaced him.

[YAZMAN]

Too bad Darrell Johnson (was that his name?) lost the 7th game bringing a rookie reliever, Jim Burton, in to face Morgan (Rose?) in the 9th--with two 20 game winners sitting in the bullpen. McNamara did the same thing 11 years later, replacing an unhittable Clemens with Schiraldi. Both got fired the next spring. I remember it well.

 

Wasn't a bad pitch, Morgan hit a little ******** flair off the end of the bat. The pitch that cost the game was the beachball Lee served up to Perez.