Besides 2004, what is your favorite Red Sox memory?

[a700hitter]

My top memories other than 2004 are:

 

1967 - The stretch drive was so exciting and Yaz was other-worldy with the bat and in the field. That season made me a life long fan and it revived baseball in Boston.

 

1975 - Intially, I was psyched about Tony C's comeback and he hit a HR on opening day. He always had a flair for the dramatic. His comeback quickly fizzled, but rookies Jim Rice and Fred Lynn emerged as stars. They injected an excitement for the fans and all of baseball. These guys weren't just good rookies. They immediately became two of the best players in the game.

 

Pedro vs. Clemens (May 28,2000) --- It was beautiful Sunday night. Yankee fans were at their most raucous. My son and I were at that game. It was an unbelievable pitching duel between two greats of the game. Nixon hit a 2-run HR off Clemens in the top of the 9th. Trot always hit Clemens well. In the bottom of the 9th, Pedro loaded the bases with 2 out before Tino Martinez grounded out to Jeff Frye for the final out of the shutout. From where we were sitting down the RF line, it looked like Frye double or triple clutched before making the throw to 1B, and he didn't get Tino by a lot.

[YAZMAN]

And there was this. Alex Rodriguez slaps the ball out of Bronson Arroyo's glove and is called out for interference. The Yankee fans threw balls and trash onto the field. Bronson Arroyo is still one of my favorite ex-Red Sox players.

 

 

 

[jete02fan]

Manny's game-winning bomb against the Angels in the 2007 ALDS.

one of two times i can say i saw Manny absolutely crush a baseball

[SoxSport]

It was one of Epstein's worst moments when he traded Arroyo for Wily Shmo Pena--a guy who needed insurance to play the outfield. What was he thinking? He wasn't.

[seabeachfred]

It was one of Epstein's worst moments when he traded Arroyo for Wily Shmo Pena--a guy who needed insurance to play the outfield. What was he thinking? He wasn't.

 

Actually Sox Sport he was thinking, only he was thinking with his rear end. The way I read it from people down at Fort Myers back in '06, the plan was to have Papi and Manny work with him and bring him along. Epstein thought he could have a troika of big bangers in the lineup for the future, especially since Trot Nixon was in his last year with the Red Sox. The only problem was Pena could field to save his ass and any pitch down and away was an execution.....his. That's why Theo signed J.D. Drew in 2007. It became very clear that Willy Mo couldn't not only not play the tough RF at Fenway but he couldn't play anywhere in the outfield because he was a butcher. He was also a dumb ass and lazy to the core. They got rid of him late in the 2007 season. BTW, in a game at Fenway in 2005 between the Red Sox and Reds, Willy Mo went back for a ball in RF and got hit on top of the head with it as the ball went into the seats for a home run. Apparently Epstein didn't notice or care because he traded for him just before ST in 2006. Not one of Theo's finest hours.

[Dojji]

It was one of Epstein's worst moments when he traded Arroyo for Wily Shmo Pena--a guy who needed insurance to play the outfield. What was he thinking? He wasn't.

 

Honest question: Do you really honestly think that Bronson Arroyo would have had the renaissance he had in Cincinatti, if he'd remained in the AL East?

 

Personally, I do not. The AL East is just far, far more ridiculously hitter froendly than the National League central. He might have been a good bottom of the rotation guy, but honestly, is losing one of those anything wirth crying about for going on 8 years now?????

 

Arroyo thrived in a more defensive league against inferior competition,and I'm glad for him, but I would not have wanted him taking big innings in boston at any point since he left. He's not an ace or a schlub, he's exactly the kind of half decent arm that comes and goes around the league, the Wily Mo trade was a bad move but not because we lost Arroyo -- more because all we got for Arroyo was Wily Mo, and either way, the deal was such a franchise-destroying disaster, we won the World Series the year after it went down.

 

The only time to make that Arroyo argument was specifically 2006, and that was a lost year for more reasons than having Wily Mo rather than Arroyo. We were one of the best pitching staffs in the league in 07 and by 08 Jon lester had arrived to lead the staff, and at no point since 06 has our SP depth been so desperate we should be crying for a guy who'd be a 3-4 here at best, so it's really time to put the Arroyo revisionist history to bed.

Edited February 12, 2014 by Dojji

[rjortiz]

Honest question: Do you really honestly think that Bronson Arroyo would have had the renaissance he had in Cincinatti, if he'd remained in the AL East?

 

Personally, I do not. The AL East is just far, far more ridiculously hitter froendly than the National League central. He might have been a good bottom of the rotation guy, but honestly, is losing one of those anything wirth crying about for going on 8 years now?????

 

Arroyo thrived in a more defensive league against inferior competition,and I'm glad for him, but I would not have wanted him taking big innings in boston at any point since he left. He's not an ace or a schlub, he's exactly the kind of half decent arm that comes and goes around the league, the Wily Mo trade was a bad move but not because we lost Arroyo -- more because all we got for Arroyo was Wily Mo, and either way, the deal was such a franchise-destroying disaster, we won the World Series the year after it went down.

 

The only time to make that Arroyo argument was specifically 2006, and that was a lost year for more reasons than having Wily Mo rather than Arroyo. We were one of the best pitching staffs in the league in 07 and by 08 Jon lester had arrived to lead the staff, and at no point since 06 has our SP depth been so desperate we should be crying for a guy who'd be a 3-4 here at best, so it's really time to put the Arroyo revisionist history to bed.

 

Wow. All that to conclude that it was a bad trade, which is exactly what the other guy said.

[Dojji]

Yes, because that's definitely all I did there. It's not like I didn't introduce a lot of vary salient points that break down the emotionalism of the trade and try to make a real discussion out of it. Edited February 12, 2014 by Dojji

[Palodios]

The Red Sox used to love trading mediocre pitching talent for key pieces. Gabbard for Gagne. Masterson for VMart. Anibel Sanchez for Beckett. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. It seems like they have been burned enough lately that they don't plan on wasting any more young talent on bad trades.

[seabeachfred]

Wow. All that to conclude that it was a bad trade, which is exactly what the other guy said.

 

Dojii did bring up some good points. Arroyo was mediocre at best for us and the Yankees used to knock the crap out of him. Don't look up his record against them; he never was a pitcher of record, but look at is ERA. I don't recall one time he faced that team that he didn't get the living crap knocked out of him. Remember Game 3 of the ALCS?????? If you or anyone has a CD of it, watch it and get sick.

[Palodios]

Dojii did bring up some good points. Arroyo was mediocre at best for us and the Yankees used to knock the crap out of him. Don't look up his record against them; he never was a pitcher of record, but look at is ERA. I don't recall one time he faced that team that he didn't get the living crap knocked out of him. Remember Game 3 of the ALCS?????? If you or anyone has a CD of it, watch it and get sick.

 

If you look at his career numbers, it seems like he gets hammered by good offenses. 5.60 ERA against the Yankees, rough numbers in Philly, Baltimore, etc. Great numbers against them Cubbies, San Francisco Giants, Mets. Clearly he was a product of his environment.

[rjortiz]

Yes, because that's definitely all I did there. It's not like I didn't introduce a lot of vary salient points that break down the emotionalism of the trade and try to make a real discussion out of it.

 

You exaggerated the other side of the argument. He didn't cry about the trade, and he didn't claim it was a franchise crippling one. As for your other points, you leave out that he had a 4.1, and 3.3 WAR in 2004 and 2005. He was doing fine in the AL East, and probably most importantly he was signed to a 3/12 extension. You call him a "bottom of the rotation pitcher, one that comes and goes around the league." 9.7 WAR over a three year period comes and goes? He ranked 33th in WAR between 2006-2008. Including 2004 and 2005, he moves up to 21st. That is a quality pitcher. We definitely could have used him in our rotation

[SoxSport]

Arroyo could have played RF better than Wily Shmo--and probably hit better, too. LOL.

[mvp 78]

The Red Sox used to love trading mediocre pitching talent for key pieces. Gabbard for Gagne. Masterson for VMart. Anibel Sanchez for Beckett. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it doesn't. It seems like they have been burned enough lately that they don't plan on wasting any more young talent on bad trades.

 

They weren't burned on any of the trades you mentioned. They've been better at trades than FA pickups.

[Dojji]

Arroyo could have played RF better than Wily Shmo--and probably hit better, too. LOL.

 

That first year it looked like he might work out. He was very very good in 2006. Then he got benched because his defense became too much of a liability, and he never got the reps to work out the flaws in his plate approach after that.

[Dojji]

You exaggerated the other side of the argument. He didn't cry about the trade, and he didn't claim it was a franchise crippling one. As for your other points, you leave out that he had a 4.1, and 3.3 WAR in 2004 and 2005. He was doing fine in the AL East, and probably most importantly he was signed to a 3/12 extension. You call him a "bottom of the rotation pitcher, one that comes and goes around the league." 9.7 WAR over a three year period comes and goes? He ranked 33th in WAR between 2006-2008. Including 2004 and 2005, he moves up to 21st. That is a quality pitcher. We definitely could have used him in our rotation

 

 

Arroyo's WAR by year

 

2004: 2.7

2005: 2.5

 

Just exactly what are you talking about?

 

Arroyo isn't an awful pitcher and I never claimed he was. He was a lower middle of the rotation guy, like a somewhat better version of Wakefield. For his career he's got a 104 ERA+ -- almost exactly average. He could go deep into the game but he was never going to be your ace. Very useful in the right situation, but here's the thing, RJ, we never really suffered for the lack of Bronson Arroyo. That's the point I was making.

 

And yes, when you talk about "the worst trade GM X ever made," if that trade is squandering a midlevel rotation extender, it didn't cripple the franchise, and we won the World Series the next year, why exactly is this trade even memorable enough to bring up 8 years later?

Edited February 13, 2014 by Dojji

[rjortiz]

Arroyo's WAR by year

 

2004: 2.7

2005: 2.5

 

Just exactly what are you talking about?

 

Arroyo isn't an awful pitcher and I never claimed he was. He was a lower middle of the rotation guy, like a somewhat better version of Wakefield. For his career he's got a 104 ERA+ -- almost exactly average. He could go deep into the game but he was never going to be your ace. Very useful in the right situation, but here's the thing, RJ, we never really suffered for the lack of Bronson Arroyo. That's the point I was making.

 

And yes, when you talk about "the worst trade GM X ever made," if that trade is squandering a midlevel rotation extender, it didn't cripple the franchise, and we won the World Series the next year, why exactly is this trade even memorable enough to bring up 8 years later?

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=978&position=P

 

Even if you use bWAR, 2.7 and 2.5 is still an above average starter, and you're also ignoring 6.8, 3.3, 1.5, which would probably make him a top 15 starter in all of MLB during that time period. That's a huge asset to give away for just Wily Mo Pena. ERA+ assumes the pitcher is 100% responsible for all earned runs, and doesn't put any weight on innings pitched.

 

The Red Sox won the World Series in 2007, because they could sweep mistakes like this one under the rug. Traded a #2/3 starter? No problem. Sign a Japanese import for $100 million to fill that hole. RF of the future sucks? Go sign JD Drew for 5/70 to be the RF.

 

It was a bad trade. I await your cherry-picked rebuttal.

[rjortiz]

That first year it looked like he might work out. He was very very good in 2006. Then he got benched because his defense became too much of a liability, and he never got the reps to work out the flaws in his plate approach after that.

 

The Red Sox thought so highly of Wily Mo's 2006 campaign, that they handed Drew 5/70 to be the RF. They knew they made a mistake. They knew that Wily Mo was going to crash hard to earth, seeing that his .358 wOBA was fueled by a .400 BABIP.

 

Also, how can you be very, very good, but find the bench because you can't play defense? Defense is part of the game. It's not all hitting the ball. Maybe that's why you think Nava is an all-star, when he's a role player at best.

[Dojji]

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=978&position=P

 

Even if you use bWAR, 2.7 and 2.5 is still an above average starter, and you're also ignoring 6.8, 3.3, 1.5, which would probably make him a top 15 starter in all of MLB during that time period. That's a huge asset to give away for just Wily Mo Pena. ERA+ assumes the pitcher is 100% responsible for all earned runs, and doesn't put any weight on innings pitched.

 

I'm ignoring those other numbers because they happened in the NL Central, not the AL East. His AL sample is as a pitcher who wasn't awful and made his daily bread on his durability. Other good recent examples include men like Jeremy Guthrie, Ryan Dempster, and Derek Lowe. The kind of guys you see somewhere between the 3 and 5 spots in a good rotation, but if he's starting the first or second game of your playoff series, your playoff run is going to be short.

 

Arroyo was in no way, shape, form or means, a #2-3 starter for the Boston Red Sox. And if at any point he ever was, that would be a sign, in flashing red letters, that it was time to upgrade the rotation immediately if not sooner.

 

 

The Red Sox won the World Series in 2007, because they could sweep mistakes like this one under the rug. Traded a #2/3 starter? No problem. Sign a Japanese import for $100 million to fill that hole. RF of the future sucks? Go sign JD Drew for 5/70 to be the RF.

 

... and? It's not like we're the only team for which that is true. For the so-called worst moment of Theo's run, something that doesn't even hurt us particualrly badly is pretty weak sauce.

 

And for the record, I'd definitely rate the Rent-a-wreck debacle as far worse for the Red Sox than the Arroyo trade without needing a lot of time to think it over. THAT one hurt. THAT was the one where we couldn't simply buy a replacement, because there's just not a good shortstop on the market every year. Corner outfielders come and go. And I'm sure that was part of Theo's risk assessment, along with an honest appraisal of Arroyo's actual value as a starter. Wily Mo was high risk high reward and he didn't pay out, but Arroyos aren't hard to find on the market if your scouting is good, and ours has been more hit than miss over the years.

 

Nor is it unfair to mention that Theo did a decent job picking those replacements. Drew did fine for us, and Daisuke was excellent before what I'm still 100% convinced is a major shoulder injury that happened in the second half of the 2007 season that was covered up for much too long and as a result never healed properly. Daisuke went overnight from a guy who, sure, lived on the edge of the strike zone, but could paint and throw called strikes to keep hitters off balance -- from that, to a guy who was walking 4+ guys per nine. That to me reeks of injury.

 

 

It was a bad trade. I await your cherry-picked rebuttal.

 

It was a bad trade. But why, 8 years later, is "a bad trade" such a focal point? There have been other bad trades. No sane person actually thinks that Bronson Arroyo actually puts up a WAR of nearly 7 if he stays in the American League east in 2006 do they?

 

Do they?

 

Because if he doesn't have that year, there is literally nothing separating Arroyo from Jeremy Guthrie. Heck as is Guthrie has an all but exactly identital career ERA+ at 103. Is Guthrie a 2-3? Because quite honestly given that most of Guthrie's experience is in the AL East in a hitter friendly park in Baltimore facing both us and NYY 19 times a year each and frequently with laughably bad defense behind him, I'd rate him just a tick higher than Arroyo personally.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Dojji

[Dojji]

The Red Sox thought so highly of Wily Mo's 2006 campaign, that they handed Drew 5/70 to be the RF. They knew they made a mistake. They knew that Wily Mo was going to crash hard to earth, seeing that his .358 wOBA was fueled by a .400 BABIP.

 

Also, how can you be very, very good, but find the bench because you can't play defense? Defense is part of the game. It's not all hitting the ball.

 

Manny's career that PED allegations notwithstanding is probably gonna put him in the Hall, disagrees with you. For outfielders in particular, it very nearly is all about hitting the ball. Wily Mo's problem is that when you're so much of a space cadet defensively that you can't even hack it in the outfield, there's not much the team can do with you.

 

Maybe that's why you think Nava is an all-star, when he's a role player at best.

 

Ahh yes, personal insults, exhibit A of the type of person who takes himself much too seriously, has invested a great deal too much emotion in his argument, and seriously needs to chill the hell out.

[rjortiz]

Manny's career that PED allegations notwithstanding is probably gonna put him in the Hall, disagrees with you. For outfielders in particular, it very nearly is all about hitting the ball. Wily Mo's problem is that when you're so much of a space cadet defensively that you can't even hack it in the outfield, there's not much the team can do with you.

 

What exactly do Manny Ramirez and Wily Mo Pena have in common?

 

 

 

Ahh yes, personal insults, exhibit A of the type of person who takes himself much too seriously, has invested a great deal too much emotion in his argument, and seriously needs to chill the hell out.

 

Not meant as an insult. I believe you were one of the posters advocating a spot in the all-star game for Daniel Nava in 2013.

[Palodios]

They weren't burned on any of the trades you mentioned. They've been better at trades than FA pickups.

 

Trading away Masterson, Arroyo, and Sanchez certainly has hurt the team's pitching depth over the years. Not a deep burn, but it still hurts.

[a700hitter]

Doji, I get your points, and they are mostly valid, but it was a terrible terrible trade. Arroyo has been a productive and more importantly a durable MLB pitcher for almost 10 years. Wily Mo was a trainwreck on every level. Even Theo gave a mea culpa on that trade calling it a mistake.

[Dojji]

Doji, I get your points, and they are mostly valid, but it was a terrible terrible trade. Arroyo has been a productive and more importantly a durable MLB pitcher for almost 10 years. Wily Mo was a trainwreck on every level. Even Theo gave a mea culpa on that trade calling it a mistake.

 

yep. bad trade. Agreed. Duly conceded. I acknowledge the bad trade, have always acknowledged the bad trade, and if the last 9 aren't good enough and you need me to acknowledge for the 10th time that it was a bad trade I can do that too.

 

Now, is it bad enough that we need to be remembering to whine about it 8 years 2 world series wins and a GM change later? Personally for that to be the case in my mind we'd need to see some huge opportunity for the team gone by the boards or some monster effort the team had to go to to replace the talent we lost in the teal. that's why I definitely rate the Renteria fiiasco as far worse for the team on the whole than what happened to Arroyo. That one was the beginning of what I dirisively called the shortstop-go-round where we went through shortstops like Hogawrts School of Witchcraft and wizardry went through Defense against the Dark Arts teachers. Which I might note is arguably still going on, since we've had nearly a shortstop a year since Nomar left town 10 years ago.

 

it's why I don't whine that much about the Gagne trade even though that one did damage our chances by costing us both a young lefty depth starter who'd shown a lot of promise (before he ultimately took a very unfortunate elbow injury in Texas that completely ruined his mechanics and was never heard from again), and a nice utility outfielder, while outright weakening our bullpen for the stretch and into the playoffs.

 

ultimately while it was a bad move it didn't kill us and neither did the Arroyo trade. It's the kind of unfortunate move that tends to speckle the records of every active GM from time to time. And nowhere near the kind of legendary disaster we need to be talking about a decade on.

Edited February 13, 2014 by Dojji

[Bellhorn04]

One little footnote on the Arroyo trade that I'm sure I've mentioned before...Epstein did manage to convert Pena into 2 draft picks (traded Pena for C. Carter, traded Carter for Billy Wagner, got the picks when Wagner went elsewhere). One of the picks was used to take Ranaudo.

[mvp 78]

Trading away Masterson, Arroyo, and Sanchez certainly has hurt the team's pitching depth over the years. Not a deep burn, but it still hurts.

 

The Sanchez trade brought the 07 WS.

 

Masterson brought a VERY productive VMart.

 

Gabbard didn't do anything after being traded.

 

The only dark spot is the Arroyo trade.

[Palodios]

The Sanchez trade brought the 07 WS.

 

Masterson brought a VERY productive VMart.

 

Gabbard didn't do anything after being traded.

 

The only dark spot is the Arroyo trade.

 

By all means, the Red Sox have succeeded with the players they received, but there is still plenty of lost value. Vmart gave the Red Sox roughly 4-5 WAR, whereas Masterson has produced about 12 WAR. But then again, VMart brought in Matt Barnes and Henry Owens, so hard to argue with that trade.

 

The Beckett trade is a tossup. Championships are the end goal, but Beckett cost significant prospects for mostly mixed results, and organizational shame. Hanley and Sanchez have been combining for 10 WAR a year lately. I would still make the trade, but at that cost, they might as well have traded for Halladay or Felix.

[Bellhorn04]

By all means, the Red Sox have succeeded with the players they received, but there is still plenty of lost value. Vmart gave the Red Sox roughly 4-5 WAR, whereas Masterson has produced about 12 WAR. But then again, VMart brought in Matt Barnes and Henry Owens, so hard to argue with that trade.

 

The Beckett trade is a tossup. Championships are the end goal, but Beckett cost significant prospects for mostly mixed results, and organizational shame. Hanley and Sanchez have been combining for 10 WAR a year lately. I would still make the trade, but at that cost, they might as well have traded for Halladay or Felix.

 

The Beckett trade should never be second-guessed. As you implied, it resulted in a championship. Also, there's no way of knowing what it would have taken to obtain Halladay or Felix.

 

It's amazing the fascination we have with analyzing things that might have been or not been. A remarkably pointless exercise, if you really think about it.

[Palodios]

The Beckett trade should never be second-guessed. As you implied, it resulted in a championship. Also, there's no way of knowing what it would have taken to obtain Halladay or Felix.

 

It's amazing the fascination we have with analyzing things that might have been or not been. A remarkably pointless exercise, if you really think about it.

 

In all fairness, it is the offseason haha.

 

I used to hold the Beckett trade in high regard, but the more I look at the money spent, prospect cost, and his numbers, I question it. He had three seasons in the 5.00+ ERA range with the Red Sox. The Red Sox had such a strong core of players in those years that I seriously wonder if maybe the team would have done better without him.

[Bellhorn04]

In all fairness, it is the offseason haha.

 

I used to hold the Beckett trade in high regard, but the more I look at the money spent, prospect cost, and his numbers, I question it. He had three seasons in the 5.00+ ERA range with the Red Sox. The Red Sox had such a strong core of players in those years that I seriously wonder if maybe the team would have done better without him.

 

The team might have done better overall, but they might also have one less championship.

 

Also, with regard to Hanley and Sanchez, those two have had their ups and downs. And Sanchez, now that he has developed into a solid starter, is making a ton of money too. There are a lot of permutations and combinations.