2013 Spring Training

[Dojji]

I am glad that he is sitting, not complaining. I don't think we should have gotten him. I see no sense in a 1 year deal for a team going nowhere. I'd rather see what we have with Iggy.

 

Like Drew couldn't have been re-signed if he'd produced. Year-long auditions prior to bigger contracts for players who are coming off extensive injuries are the norm. It's nothing anyone hasn't seen before. Heck, we saw it a few years ago with Adrian Beltre, and my only regret was that the FO was so fixated on Adgon they didn't take the steps to keep the guy here.

 

If he'd signed Drew to a multi year deal you'd be complaining abut that, God knows.

 

It's really hard to take the complaints seriously of a man who will literally find a reason to complain about anything.

 

Signing Drew made sense when he did it because Iggy was hitting with a wet paper bag. A healthy Stephen Drew would have outproduced that version of Iglesias comfortably. He's not as flashy a defender as Iggy, but on a healthy ankle, he's sound and solid, and his bat is comfortably above league average at short where Iglesias looked like (and still might) producing comfortably under the Mendoza line.

 

Now that Iglesias has shown some progress, people want to pretend Cheringtin is somehow at fault for correctly hedging his bets?

[Dojji]

I don't think we needed a stopgap guy for a team that will have a hard time being competitive.

 

And if he'd done nothing but pray for Iglesias, are you really going to try and tell me that you wouldn't be standing here kavetching about the lack of action at short and the paper bag bat we'd be shoehorning into the lineup?

 

I have no problem with honest criticism of FO policy. Dishonest use of hindsight to invent reasons to complain sets my teeth on edge.

[kapsis21]

I don't think we needed a stopgap guy for a team that will have a hard time being competitive.

 

so they paid the money to get a fairly decent guy and you are complaining, if they wouldnt have gotten him and Iggy crapped his pants you would have complained why didnt we sign Troy Tulo.. :dunno:

let Ben ride couple years on his signings see how good/bad he is with his overall signing of players.

[mvp 78]

I'd rather see what we have with Iggy.

 

I agree with this. This should have been a ST for people to have open competition for SS, 1B, and OF. The contracts hinder that.

 

I wouldn't have traded Sands either.

[User Name]

A lot of people are going to be whining about Iglesias if he can't hit. They reason they brought Drew is that, in all likelihood, he can't.

 

We'll see.

[Dojji]

I would have dealt Sands, but only because I liked the return. I like strength in the middle infield positions more than I like a guy who has shown signs in the past that maybe he's AAAA. I would have been fine with giving Sands a shot if he was still here, but Holt answers a different but equally important suite of questions for the Red Sox.

 

And have you seen the spring Sands is having in Pittsburgh? He wouldn't be breaking camp with this team anyhow.

A lot of people are going to be whining about Iglesias if he can't hit. They reason they brought Drew is that, in all likelihood, he can't.

 

We'll see.

 

Right. Anyone criticizing the Drew signing because of Iglesias showing in spring training has managed to forget the healthy dose of salt with which we're supposed to be taking Spring numbers.

 

Iglesias hasn't had a chance to show us anything yet to even suggest the Drew signing might have been unwise because while he's played well, it's all been in exhibition games.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Hey Jung - I know you think Bradley is not a very good defender, so I thought you should read this.

 

This is a scouting report from when he was a junior at South Carolina, from Buster Olney's blog today:

 

"Player carries the 'it' factor. Presidential presence to game. Regal. However, the player has been the most popular man in Colombia, S.C. from the 1st day he walked on campus and he had me glued to the TV last year watching the College World Series. Mesmerizing defender. Jaw-dropping defensive skills. Patrols CF with a determined grace, with flare. Would have happily paid good money just to watch his pregame batting practice and infield. Acrobatic and skilled. Catches every ball with flare. Covers ground like a gladiator. Plus handles the glove in CF like Omar Vizquel would in the infield. Amazing defensive skills. Innate ability to hawk the diamond. Better defender in center field than majority of major leaguers right now& [You] can't teach the things this kid can do defensively. Made the parallel play coming directly in on a ball ala 1998 Andruw Jones. Sick defender."

[a700hitter]

Like Drew couldn't have been re-signed if he'd produced. Year-long auditions prior to bigger contracts for players who are coming off extensive injuries are the norm. It's nothing anyone hasn't seen before. Heck, we saw it a few years ago with Adrian Beltre, and my only regret was that the FO was so fixated on Adgon they didn't take the steps to keep the guy here.

 

If he'd signed Drew to a multi year deal you'd be complaining abut that, God knows.

 

It's really hard to take the complaints seriously of a man who will literally find a reason to complain about anything.

 

Signing Drew made sense when he did it because Iggy was hitting with a wet paper bag. A healthy Stephen Drew would have outproduced that version of Iglesias comfortably. He's not as flashy a defender as Iggy, but on a healthy ankle, he's sound and solid, and his bat is comfortably above league average at short where Iglesias looked like (and still might) producing comfortably under the Mendoza line.

 

Now that Iglesias has shown some progress, people want to pretend Cheringtin is somehow at fault for correctly hedging his bets?

Get it all out, Doji. Do you feel better? My wanting to give Iggy a shot has nothing to do with his recent progress at the plate. That's in your head. After last season, it was obvious to me that this team was not going to be strongly competitive in 2013. I have been opposed to spending $160 - 170 million on a team that will probably get steamrolled and have been beating the drum to give the kids a chance to see what they have-- Iggy and Lavs. Unfortunately Lavs bombed out in camp, but I still would have raded Salty before the start of camp and let Lavs sink or swim this year. He's 25. It's now or never. The same goes for Iggy. While younger than Lavs, he has Bogaerts and Marrero coming up quickly behind him.

[a700hitter]

And if he'd done nothing but pray for Iglesias, are you really going to try and tell me that you wouldn't be standing here kavetching about the lack of action at short and the paper bag bat we'd be shoehorning into the lineup?

 

I have no problem with honest criticism of FO policy. Dishonest use of hindsight to invent reasons to complain sets my teeth on edge.

Doji, this is a 4th place team, possibly a last place team with Drew. I have questioned the imprudent use of payroll all offseason long. Think what you want, but don't tell me what I have been thinking and saying. Try actually staying up with what I say rather than what you think I think. Facts are better.

[a700hitter]

@ everyone losing their minds over me saying that Drew has an "egg shell skull." I am not criticizing him for it. He took a glancing shot off the helmet and he has been dizzy for weeks. Some guys get hit flush and play the next day. Drew apparently has a "glass jaw. " Some guys can take a hit. Others can't. Go ahead lose your minds over that fact.

[Palodios]

Get it all out, Doji. Do you feel better? My wanting to give Iggy a shot has nothing to do with his recent progress at the plate. That's in your head. After last season, it was obvious to me that this team was not going to be strongly competitive in 2013. I have been opposed to spending $160 - 170 million on a team that will probably get steamrolled and have been beating the drum to give the kids a chance to see what they have-- Iggy and Lavs. Unfortunately Lavs bombed out in camp, but I still would have raded Salty before the start of camp and let Lavs sink or swim this year. He's 25. It's now or never. The same goes for Iggy. While younger than Lavs, he has Bogaerts and Marrero coming up quickly behind him.

 

This team had three options.

 

1) Do nothing and get steamrolled in 2013. Win 50-60 games all season. Destroy the fanbase. Lose tons of money for the owners. Lose out on a number 1 and 2 picks because the Astros and Marlins are still worse.

 

2) Pickup stopgap players who would keep the team competitive-- some of which could be used for trades midseason to rebuild for the future. If the team gets very lucky with pitching, it may make the playoffs.

 

3) Overpay for guys like Greinke and Hamilton, overextending the team's finances years to come, but maybe earning a wildcard playoff spot this year before being bounced in the wildcard round. Other similar options include trading Bogaertz + Bradley + Cecchini for Dickey, Shields, or Johnson.

 

Which one would you chose? I understand that there may have been more attractive pitching options available, but I don't think there would be any guarantees to make the playoffs besides option #3. This team simply lacked the core pieces, and I think that making the team less miserable to watch while they figure it out isn't the worst solution.

[Dojji]

This team had three options.

This team simply lacked the core pieces, and I think that making the team less miserable to watch while they figure it out isn't the worst solution.

 

That and, why the heck not seize what chance you can without overpaying?

 

Even if the end result is not a very good chance, I'd still rather see the FO go all out to get the best chance they can within the reasonable constraints of a team that has to think about more than this year.

[mvp 78]

TIL, brain injuries are hillarious!

[a700hitter]

This team had three options.

 

1) Do nothing and get steamrolled in 2013. Win 50-60 games all season. Destroy the fanbase. Lose tons of money for the owners. Lose out on a number 1 and 2 picks because the Astros and Marlins are still worse.

 

2) Pickup stopgap players who would keep the team competitive-- some of which could be used for trades midseason to rebuild for the future. If the team gets very lucky with pitching, it may make the playoffs.

 

3) Overpay for guys like Greinke and Hamilton, overextending the team's finances years to come, but maybe earning a wildcard playoff spot this year before being bounced in the wildcard round. Other similar options include trading Bogaertz + Bradley + Cecchini for Dickey, Shields, or Johnson.

 

Which one would you chose? I understand that there may have been more attractive pitching options available, but I don't think there would be any guarantees to make the playoffs besides option #3. This team simply lacked the core pieces, and I think that making the team less miserable to watch while they figure it out isn't the worst solution.

Pal, I thought that we were on the same page on this? I am on record about what I would have done. Using your choices above, I would have gone with #2, but I would have done it much differently than has been done. I like what they did in the bullpen, but I would have focused more on building the starting pitching -- the back end of the rotation, because aces were not available. I would have preferred to add two inning eating starters and my first choice would not have been Dempster. I also would have made different choices in the OF. This is another weak spot for the team. I would not have blocked Iggy or Lavs. This was the type of team where I thought they could give them their opportunity.

[User Name]

Also Dojji, isn't it kind of ironic you're talking about wanting to keep Beltre after you were his biggest hater on the board?

[a700hitter]

That and, why the heck not seize what chance you can without overpaying?

 

Even if the end result is not a very good chance, I'd still rather see the FO go all out to get the best chance they can within the reasonable constraints of a team that has to think about more than this year.

Here's where we differ. I don't agree they made the best choices within those constraints. Starting Pitching has been the problem on this team for 2 seasons. They added Dempster to replace Beckett. I don't think they did nearly enough. I know that you think othat our starting depth is 7 or 8 deep, but I disagree. It was our achilles heel last year, and I think it will continue to be a problem this year unless Lester and Buch have incredible seasons.

[User Name]

F.O spends money: "They are idiots, why did they spend all that money at just an outside chance at the playoffs....this team is poorly run, i could do better".

 

F.O does not spend money: "They are idiots, pocketing the money is alienating the fanbase, they should have spent the money even if it meant just an outside chance at the playoffs.....this team is poorly run, i could do better."

 

GTFO.

[Palodios]

Pal, I thought that we were on the same page on this? I am on record about what I would have done. Using your choices above, I would have gone with #2, but I would have done it much differently than has been done. I like what they did in the bullpen, but I would have focused more on building the starting pitching -- the back end of the rotation, because aces were not available. I would have preferred to add two inning eating starters and my first choice would not have been Dempster. I also would have made different choices in the OF. This is another weak spot for the team. I would not have blocked Iggy or Lavs. This was the type of team where I thought they could give them their opportunity.

 

I think we generally are on the same page, but the main difference we have is that I have no problem seeing them spend short-term money to make the team better. As I said, I fully understand your concerns about the starting pitching, but I do like to think that this team know their options better than I do.

 

When the Brewers signed Lohse the other day, they mentioned that there were pitchers available that they wanted who didn't want to play for them. There was a poll the other day where 30% of players thought the Red Sox organization was still a complete mess. Maybe the Red Sox saw their options, and knew what kind of shape Lackey was in, and they realize that maybe they couldn't find someone better than him without severely overpaying. The only players I think they sorely missed out on were Haren (available in a low cost trade) and Trevor Bauer, who had only cost one year of Choo.

[rjortiz]

F.O spends money: "They are idiots, why did they spend all that money at just an outside chance at the playoffs....this team is poorly run, i could do better".

 

F.O does not spend money: "They are idiots, pocketing the money is alienating the fanbase, they should have spent the money even if it meant just an outside chance at the playoffs.....this team is poorly run, i could do better."

 

GTFO.

 

 

I don't think he is complaining about spending money, I think he is just disappointed on who they are spending it on.

 

I don't speak for him, so I'll let him defend himself.

[a700hitter]

TIL, brain injuries are hillarious!

Who is laughing about brain injuries?

[a700hitter]

I think we generally are on the same page, but the main difference we have is that I have no problem seeing them spend short-term money to make the team better. As I said, I fully understand your concerns about the starting pitching, but I do like to think that this team know their options better than I do.

 

When the Brewers signed Lohse the other day, they mentioned that there were pitchers available that they wanted who didn't want to play for them. There was a poll the other day where 30% of players thought the Red Sox organization was still a complete mess. Maybe the Red Sox saw their options, and knew what kind of shape Lackey was in, and they realize that maybe they couldn't find someone better than him without severely overpaying. The only players I think they sorely missed out on were Haren (available in a low cost trade) and Trevor Bauer, who had only cost one year of Choo.

Fair enough, but we can only judge them on results. We don't know the behind the scenes stuff.

[a700hitter]

I don't think he is complaining about spending money, I think he is just disappointed on who they are spending it on.

 

I don't speak for him, so I'll let him defend himself.

I only ocassionally view UN's posts -- when I am bored out of my skull. His latest was just pure stupidity.

[User Name]

I don't think he is complaining about spending money, I think he is just disappointed on who they are spending it on.

 

I don't speak for him, so I'll let him defend himself.

 

 

Yeah that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, which is why i didn't quote him. No need to fan a fire that ain't there. Letting him speak for himself is exactly what you should do.

[a700hitter]

Yeah that wasn't directed at anyone in particular, which is why i didn't quote him. No need to fan a fire that ain't there. Letting him speak for himself is exactly what you should do.

No fire on my end.

[BSN07]

^ Nostradamus

 

Nice that someone recognizes the skills

[jung]

Hey Jung - I know you think Bradley is not a very good defender, so I thought you should read this.

 

No, I said he has been a shaky LF. JBJ is an athletic outfielder and and those athletic qualities are simply not very valuable in LF. He does not have experience nor has he so far exhibited good judgement in LF and has twice even in the short stints he has had in LF made poor judgements on hit baseballs.

 

All of the comments in that piece are about JBJ's play in CF and I think he is/will be a terrific CF. Probably better than Ells cause Ells can run but can't throw. Speed is still the first order of business for a CF but an arm is next. Ells has the speed but no arm at all. Can't out-throw my 11 year old daughter.

 

As I have stated several times, LF is less about athletic ability and more about judgement and experience.

 

JBJ is not as yet a LFer and if he starts the year there as is, his lack of experience and judgement in LF will likely hurt him. Nava is just about the only experienced LF this team has got, maybe followed by Victorino and maybe Kalish once and or maybe if he gets back. Gomes is a mess.

[mvp 78]

There was a poll the other day where 30% of players thought the Red Sox organization was still a complete mess.

 

Nope.

 

It was Marlins 43%, Astros 38% and Sox 10%.

 

The poll included 110 players out of a total 750.

 

I'm not worried that 11 players think the team could be a disaster. I'd only be worried if Pedroia responded that way.

[mvp 78]

Jung, number of games Manny played in LF before coming here: 0.

 

This "experience" and "judgement" stuff is just kind of nonsense.

[Palodios]

Nope.

 

It was Marlins 43%, Astros 38% and Sox 10%.

 

The poll included 110 players out of a total 750.

 

I'm not worried that 11 players think the team could be a disaster. I'd only be worried if Pedroia responded that way.

 

Not sure what Pedroia has to do with being able to pick up pitchers in free agency.

 

That poll is asking for who is the superlative to "biggest mess in baseball". Even if the Red Sox comes in third, there definitely would be a big incentive for players to avoid signing with them in free agency. Especially pitchers who don't necessarily want to pitch in the AL East to begin with.

[a700hitter]

I hope people don't expect too much from Bradley. He is definitely better than our other options, but that is a pretty low bar. He will hit some bumps, but he is talented and he does hustle. I don't think people should expect him to take off like a meteor.