2013 Spring Training

[jung]

I have more faith in our rotation than I have in Salty if that tells you anything about my opinion of Salty.

 

I don't put much stock in the BC comment beyond a pretty strong suggestion that the Sox will start the season with Salty and Ross and I just think that is the wrong thing to do. The Sox are barking up the same damn tree with Lavs that they did with Riddick. They will just never learn.

 

In addition, as I mentioned in another post if they start the season with Salty and Ross, they will not easily conclude that they need to move Salty later in the season for the reasons I mentioned in my other post. Moving a guy they started the season with to bring a younger guy up smacks of throwing in the towel on the season and the Sox simply won't do it unless the season has totally fallen apart.

 

I really don't think Salty can improve much more than he has although if somebody concentrates on what there is between his ears and not what is at the end of his glove hand, he might improve some. Some of what is left for Satly boils down to physical skills that he just does not seem to have which is why I am not expecting much improvement. I even think Salty's propensity to hold the glove over the middle of the plate or an inch or so either side of middle is a matter of his comfort level with the way he receives the ball...another issue for him.

[SoxSport]

I hope Salty plays frisbee with SFF. It is our only chance to improve the pitching and get Lavarnway his shot. Please SFF, you are our chance.

 

Seriously, if Cherries thinks that Salty can be one of the best catchers in the league, he is an idiot who can't be trusted to judge talent. I am thoroughly convinced that he knows zero about pitching talent.

 

Maybe he's trying to build him up for a trade. But he isn't fooling anybody. I do think Salty is the type of kid who will improve. Big on effort. Limited on talent--maybe. These type can surprise. Didn't expect 25 HRs last year.

[BSN07]

I have more faith in our rotation than I have in Salty if that tells you anything about my opinion of Salty.

 

I don't put much stock in the BC comment beyond a pretty strong suggestion that the Sox will start the season with Salty and Ross and I just think that is the wrong thing to do. The Sox are barking up the same damn tree with Lavs that they did with Riddick. They will just never learn.

 

In addition, as I mentioned in another post if they start the season with Salty and Ross, they will not easily conclude that they need to move Salty later in the season for the reasons I mentioned in my other post. Moving a guy they started the season with to bring a younger guy up smacks of throwing in the towel on the season and the Sox simply won't do it unless the season has totally fallen apart.

 

I really don't think Salty can improve much more than he has although if somebody concentrates on what there is between his ears and not what is at the end of his glove hand, he might improve some. Some of what is left for Satly boils down to physical skills that he just does not seem to have which is why I am not expecting much improvement. I even think Salty's propensity to hold the glove over the middle of the plate or an inch or so either side of middle is a matter of his comfort level with the way he receives the ball...another issue for him.

 

So anytime a team brings up a young player to replace a veteran, they are throwing in the towel? :lol:

 

I wouldn't say this is the same situation as Reddick. Now if they trade Lavs and keep Salty, then maybe it's similar.

[Dojji]

What a misinformed post.

 

This is nothing like the Reddick situation. What drove me bananas about Reddick is that they had no serious alternative to Reddick beyond a guy with a 1 year deal. You don't move a younster who's begun to find success at the big league level because of a player on a one year freaking deal. Even though Cody Ross outperformed, that's still really, really stupid. And counting on Kalish for anything was truly retarded given the well documented injuries he'd already sustained, and only looks worse in hindsight.

 

The difference in this situation is that we have no actual hole at catcher. We definitely have the ability to upgrade over what we have in terms of performance if the right deal comes along, no one would accuse either of our catchers of being a superstar, but there's no denying that Salty and Ross will both be healthy and above replacement level based on their histories. So that does give Cherrington a freer hand to make a deal, hopefully one that doesn't explode in his face as spectacularly as the actual value for value of the Reddick deal did. Or you could easily justify holding onto Lavarnway too, since he does represent a possible upgrade and a number of scenarios could see him on the roster this year (Any of Ross, Salty or Napoli going down could get him a quick ticket to Boston, with Salty shifting to first if it's Napoli)

[jung]

That was not my point in the Riddick reference...not referring to trade or not trade. Referring to the fact that the Sox never really gave Riddick the job here in Boston. Riddick got some playing time but never got the job. I think the Sox undervalued Riddick because they thought they had seen all that Riddick had to offer.

 

Once Oakland got their hands on him they simply gave Riddick the job and Riddick flourished. I even suspect that Riddick's excessive relish at digging at Boston in their head to head meetings and in any references to then vs now relates to that element of his time here. It is much more of a f*** you Boston feeling than what you get from other former players in similar situations All players like to show well against their former mates but there is an element to Riddick's references that go much deeper than that. The Sox never gave him the job...Oakland did and Oakland reaps the benefit. Some players force your hand in that regard. They simply do not show you their best if they are constantly looking over their shoulders waiting to get pulled out of the lineup for one reason or the other. I suspect that Lavs may well have gotten to that point with regard to his plate performances as well. I think there is a pretty good chance that Lavs is very similar to Riddick in that regard and I fear that we will at some point just give up on him without ever really finding out what he has to offer, only to find him flourishing somewhere else.

 

So I am not referring to trading or not trading although if the Sox do undervalue Lavs it could eventually turn out to be a situation where Lavs gets traded without the Sox ever really seeing him at his best. Had the Sox good options at catcher it would not matter. However they don't have good options at catcher, I don't think Lavs continued development would be hindered being up with the big club and I don't think the big club's chances of doing anything this year suffer for Lavs being here. If anything it might be the key to unlocking Lavs potential at the plate.

[seabeachfred]

That was not my point in the Riddick reference...not referring to trade or not trade. Referring to the fact that the Sox never really gave Riddick the job here in Boston. Riddick got some playing time but never got the job. I think the Sox undervalued Riddick because they thought they had seen all that Riddick had to offer.

 

Once Oakland got their hands on him they simply gave Riddick the job and Riddick flourished. I even suspect that Riddick's excessive relish at digging at Boston in their head to head meetings and in any references to then vs now relates to that element of his time here. It is much more of a f*** you Boston feeling than what you get from other former players in similar situations All players like to show well against their former mates but there is an element to Riddick's references that go much deeper than that. The Sox never gave him the job...Oakland did and Oakland reaps the benefit. Some players force your hand in that regard. They simply do not show you their best if they are constantly looking over their shoulders waiting to get pulled out of the lineup for one reason or the other. I suspect that Lavs may well have gotten to that point with regard to his plate performances as well. I think there is a pretty good chance that Lavs is very similar to Riddick in that regard and I fear that we will at some point just give up on him without ever really finding out what he has to offer, only to find him flourishing somewhere else.

 

So I am not referring to trading or not trading although if the Sox do undervalue Lavs it could eventually turn out to be a situation where Lavs gets traded without the Sox ever really seeing him at his best. Had the Sox good options at catcher it would not matter. However they don't have good options at catcher, I don't think Lavs continued development would be hindered being up with the big club and I don't think the big club's chances of doing anything this year suffer for Lavs being here. If anything it might be the key to unlocking Lavs potential at the plate.

 

Absolutely in my opinion Jung. The Red Sox will rue the day if they trade Lavarnway and keep the miserable Satalamacchia. Even though I am not writing this season off, the consensus seems to be that this is a bridge or transition or rebuilding year---take your pick. We already know what Salty can do and except for hitting home runs, and not enough of them, he gives them nothing else. You put Lavarnway in there and get rid of Jarrod, and I would bet anyone that he would hit more than 25 homers and be a better defensive catcher because he already is-----and what's more he has the upside of being capable of being a 30-35 homer man. The guy is intelligent, a quick learner and a hard worker. We must not let this guy get away.

[jung]

Well just to be clear, sbf, I don't think it is a trade or not trade question regarding Lavs just yet, at least I hope not. But I do see things in Lavs plate appearances especially last year that remind of Riddick in his stint up here before being traded to Oakland. Some players just do not handle the idea that each mistake may be the one that lands them on the pine and they don't show you want they really have at the ML level until somebody tells them "its your job kid" .....meaning feeling confident that this plate appearance, this chance in the lineup will not be their last with the big club if they make out or look bad doing it. So much of what Lavs did at the plate last year reminds me of Riddick in the same situation....lots of bad swings....swings that had the player walking out of the batter's box shaking his head, looking like he was asking himself "what the hell did I think I was going to do with that pitch".

 

Riddick is not the first player that did not flourish under those conditions and he will not be the last. There are other things that make me think Lavs may be the same sort of player but the kinds of mistakes he made at the plate last year and their similarity to Riddick's.... mistakes that looked like mistakes born of anxiety, nervous mistakes is the most obvious one to me. I could be wrong but I have already explained why I think on balance I would rather go with Lavs sooner rather than later.

 

The fact that all the experts seem to agree that Lavs needs to get settled into a role to show his best at any level, let alone the ML level would smack of the same sort of thing to me.

[SoxSport]

I doubt they'll trade Lav. They have an option year left on him, and are looking for him to improve his hitting in AAA. Salty will have to improve some this year to warrant a bigger contract next year, so he's more likely to be traded. They figure rightly both can't get enough PT in Boston.

[seabeachfred]

Well just to be clear, sbf, I don't think it is a trade or not trade question regarding Lavs just yet, at least I hope not. But I do see things in Lavs plate appearances especially last year that remind of Riddick in his stint up here before being traded to Oakland. Some players just do not handle the idea that each mistake may be the one that lands them on the pine and they don't show you want they really have at the ML level until somebody tells them "its your job kid" .....meaning feeling confident that this plate appearance, this chance in the lineup will not be their last with the big club if they make out or look bad doing it. So much of what Lavs did at the plate last year reminds me of Riddick in the same situation....lots of bad swings....swings that had the player walking out of the batter's box shaking his head, looking like he was asking himself "what the hell did I think I was going to do with that pitch".

 

Riddick is not the first player that did not flourish under those conditions and he will not be the last. There are other things that make me think Lavs may be the same sort of player but the kinds of mistakes he made at the plate last year and their similarity to Riddick's.... mistakes that looked like mistakes born of anxiety, nervous mistakes is the most obvious one to me. I could be wrong but I have already explained why I think on balance I would rather go with Lavs sooner rather than later.

 

The fact that all the experts seem to agree that Lavs needs to get settled into a role to show his best at any level, let alone the ML level would smack of the same sort of thing to me.

 

Just to be clear myself, you didn't even have to make another good post as this one was because I knew exactly where you were coming from because I think the exact thing myself. Nothing screws up a young and promising player when he has to look over his shoulder and realize that if he does something bad his ass with be back on the bench and the old and sad guard will be back in the lineup. We saw that with Reddick. Enough said on that. Look, we both know that Salty is NOT our catcher of the future and we will never win anything with him behind the plate. He can do only one thing....hit home runs and he doesn't hit enough of them to warrant his being in the lineup when he does so many other things wrong.

 

I also have over 30 years experience coaching baseball and the one thing I learned was that if you want a promising player to show up well you don't jerk him around.....You put him in the lineup and make it clear he is there to stay. Rarely if ever does a player handled that way fail, and I cannot remember anyone who played for me who didn't flourish with that handling. The few times I did it the other way the results were very bad. I see that with the Red Sox all the time now. You don't win that way and that is not the way they won in 2004 and 2007.

[seabeachfred]

I doubt they'll trade Lav. They have an option year left on him, and are looking for him to improve his hitting in AAA. Salty will have to improve some this year to warrant a bigger contract next year, so he's more likely to be traded. They figure rightly both can't get enough PT in Boston.

 

I hope you have that one wired right SoxSport because it is my opinion that we go nowhere with Saltalamacchia as our catcher. I also think Lavarnway has a tremendous upside despite what a couple of our friends on this board feel.

[Spitball]

I hope you have that one wired right SoxSport because it is my opinion that we go nowhere with Saltalamacchia as our catcher. I also think Lavarnway has a tremendous upside despite what a couple of our friends on this board feel.

 

Lavarnway threw out 3 of 31 major league base runners runners in 2012. He may develop into a big league catcher, but right now he is not a given. That is a terrible 10%. Saltamalacchia threw out a terrible 18%. One is awful and the other is beyond awful. Hopefully, Lavarnway will turn into a major league catcher, but it is far from a given with his most recent statistics.

[reYoukilis]

Yes, go Lavs!!! Salty's club leading home run stats are not enough to compensate for the shoddy D and pitch calling. A big part of Salt's HR productuion came in the beginning of the year which is the wrong time if youre going to pick a time.

[BSN07]

Yes, go Lavs!!! Salty's club leading home run stats are not enough to compensate for the shoddy D and pitch calling. A big part of Salt's HR productuion came in the beginning of the year which is the wrong time if youre going to pick a time.

 

Yes because wins in the 2nd half trump wins from the first half of the season

 

You might as well have said he should have chosen to hit all his HR's with the bases loaded instead of one man on since most payers are capable of choosing when they hit their HR's...

[Dojji]

Lavarnway threw out 3 of 31 major league base runners runners in 2012. He may develop into a big league catcher, but right now he is not a given. That is a terrible 10%. Saltamalacchia threw out a terrible 18%. One is awful and the other is beyond awful. Hopefully, Lavarnway will turn into a major league catcher, but it is far from a given with his most recent statistics.

 

Yeah. I mean, I get the hate for Salty's defense. But just because Lavarnway is a potentially viable alternate, don't go nuts demanding that he actually get the job until you know what you're letting yourself in for. Lavarnway is the same basic kind of catcher as Salty. Offense first, raw, defensive skills a definite work in progress. If you only want him because he hasn't had as many chances to screw up right in front of you, you're setting yourself up for some serious disappointment.

[jung]

As I indicated earlier...I don't think much of Lavs arm at this point. He throws with better rhythm than Salty but Lavs does not appear to me to have a strong arm. I suspect the runners he does throw out he will nab because he can move quickly behind the plate and can release the ball quickly, not because he has a cannon for an arm. So far I have not seen any evidence that he has a cannon arm.

[Dojji]

In terms of raw power, Salty's arm is worlds better than Lavarnway's. Salty's technique is mediocre which hurts him, but if he ever straightened out the flaws in his mechanics he has the ability to be adequate in that department.

 

Compare that to Lavarnway, which Soxprospects, well known for overrating the potential of their prospects, is gratuitously listing DH as a secondary position for.

 

A little exerpt from their prospect analysis for your digestion...

 

Rough overall catching skills. Limited range behind the dish and slow reactions. Tends to stab at offerings, and his catching hand drifts when framing pitches. Average blocking skills, he needs to improve how he controls balls bouncing out in front of him and the fluidity of his footwork. Has made ample strides with his catch-and-release mechanics since joining the organization. Hard worker dedicated to honing craft. Despite improvements, catching skills are still limited. Will need to increase defensive versatility. Projects as a DH/part-time catcher at the major league level.

[a700hitter]

Does anyone really see Salty as the Red Sox catcher of the future? If not, why are they wasting time on him? The issue is not whether he is better than Lavarnway. At this point, his game is probably more refined than Lavarnway. However, if Salty is not looked at as the long term solution, I think they should give Lavarnway a chance in a season where we will probably be fighting for last place. At least we will see if he has what it takes.

[Dojji]

If it was a zero sum game between Salty and Lavarnway, maybe I could see doing it that way. Quite frankly I'm becoming convinced that neither of those two are our catcher of the future. I want a defense guy back there. Bonus points if that defensive guy can manage a bit of offensive production.

 

I would be delighted to see this team make a move for Miguel Olivo during the season.

[jacksonianmarch]

If it was a zero sum game between Salty and Lavarnway, maybe I could see doing it that way. Quite frankly I'm becoming convinced that neither of those two are our catcher of the future. I want a defense guy back there. Bonus points if that defensive guy can manage a bit of offensive production.

 

I would be delighted to see this team make a move for Miguel Olivo during the season.

 

Olivo is a shell of his former self defensively. The funny thing is, the guy you dealt away in Tim Federowicz would probably have won your catchers job out of ST this yr for you guys. He finally blossomed moving to the PCL, and while I know the PCL is a hitter's league, you dont just all of a sudden learn patience and power. He's stuck behind Ellis in LA, I wonder if there is any chatter about getting him back?

[wyo-sox]

Does anyone really see Salty as the Red Sox catcher of the future? If not, why are they wasting time on him? The issue is not whether he is better than Lavarnway. At this point, his game is probably more refined than Lavarnway. However, if Salty is not looked at as the long term solution, I think they should give Lavarnway a chance in a season where we will probably be fighting for last place. At least we will see if he has what it takes.

 

I certainly would hope they can upgrade in the future at catcher. I seem to remember hearing Salty never had much time at AAA to develop. So while Lavs has not impressed I do not want to create another Salty. They call the minors developmental leagues for a reason. If Salty does not show improvements in different parts of his game, which I think could happen, I am curious to see how much time Ross gets behind the plate.

[SouthieFanatic]

I'm just glad Bogaerts is there, and to a lesser extent Bradley. It's unlikely he'll be at Fenway before August/September, but I hope they'll at least start him this season in Pawtucket. Hopefully he's been working on his game this summer and off those Aruban beaches

[Station 13]

Doubront and Breslow experiencing some shoulder problem and sideline as precautionary.

[a700hitter]

Doubront and Breslow experiencing some shoulder problem and sideline as precautionary.

And so it begins.

[Station 13]

I only seen a few ST photos, Lackey look like he lost a person. The little guy that lived within his double chin. If he can throw 200IP, the team should be happy.

[a700hitter]

I only seen a few ST photos, Lackey look like he lost a person. The little guy that lived within his double chin. If he can throw 200IP, the team should be happy.

But now that he has lost so much weight, he is only hitting 50 pn tjhe gun. LOL!

[BSN07]

Soreness this time of year is normal imo. Guys are ramped up for baseball to begin. Some probably over did it a bit. Something to keep an eye on though.

[SoxSport]

I don't have a problem with their strategy for Lav and Salty. Both need to play regularly. Lav gets to play in Pawtucket, Salty in Boston.

 

If Lav hits in Pawtucket, and Salty doesn't show any improvement in Boston, I think they'll deal Salty by the trade deadline. They won't want to pay him more next year--not with Lav available. We'll probably see Lav the 2nd half unless Salty improves.

[jacksonianmarch]

Soreness this time of year is normal imo. Guys are ramped up for baseball to begin. Some probably over did it a bit. Something to keep an eye on though.

 

I said the same thing last yr with Pineda.

[seabeachfred]

Doubront and Breslow experiencing some shoulder problem and sideline as precautionary.

 

What the hell is going on anyway? Already we have one of our starters and a key reliever coming up lame, a top prospect shoots himself in the foot, and the plane carrying Ellsbury and Pedroia are hit by lightning. Does that SOMEBODY up there hate the Red Sox? It seems we are a team of Jonahs. Who got God mad at the Red Sox and when is this physical nightmare going to end? We can sure use a welcome smile from Dame Fortune.

[dupree]

I hadnt heard anything bout lighting hitting Ells and Peedy's plane. Everything alright?