10/3 - The Final Nail in the Coffin

[Taz]

Thank f*ck it's all over.

[SCM33]

I am just glad Old Yeller didn't have to endure the same pain all of us felt this year.

 

Old Yeller's owner put it out of his misery a little late, but Redsox ownership hated us, they made us suffer what seemed like 10 years of punishment this year.

[iortiz]

Thanks God this nightmare is over.

 

Whata mess left LL and Co. Wow!

 

It is going to be an up-hill battle, to fix this organization.

 

I'm not sure if this could be done in 1 yr in order to come back and fight for a PO spot.

[Beecke]

Well, season finally officially over. Anyway, all I want now is for the Red Sox to take the franchise into the right direction this offseason.

 

Not expecting any miracles, just wanting to watch a TEAM again next season with upside.

[mvp 78]

I am too.

 

You're only mad for not winning $200.

[jacksonianmarch]

It's poetic that the Yankees clinch with the sox on the field. 93 losses plus watching the Yankees clinch should leave a horrible taste in sox fans mouths. Should be fun this offseason

[noreaster]

after the trade, 9-28. it will be interesting to compare the first 37 games next season against that.

[Bellhorn04]

It's poetic that the Yankees clinch with the sox on the field. 93 losses plus watching the Yankees clinch should leave a horrible taste in sox fans mouths. Should be fun this offseason

 

For me the Yankees clinching part is a minor footnote. I wouldn't have felt any better if we lost our final game 14-2 in KC. I was pissed about Bailey blowing the second game but after that, getting stomped in the last game was a foregone conclusion. All that matters is that we're in shambles but with a lot of opportunity to get better.

[a700hitter]

Time to get down ti business. Cherries should get only one year to get this team started in the right direction. As far as I am concerned, he has done nothing to show that he is anything more than Duquette's gofer and Theo's personal assistant. He needs to step up and get things done.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

You're only mad for not winning $200.

 

I thought that was automatic so I wasn't really mad at that. I was mad that I came close to losing. That and the fact we blew that game to the Yankees. Red Sox showed us what they did best this season:become a failure. Had I won the 200 dollars that's cool and all even though I still would have been really pissed because we lost that game.

[jacksonianmarch]

For me the Yankees clinching part is a minor footnote. I wouldn't have felt any better if we lost our final game 14-2 in KC. I was pissed about Bailey blowing the second game but after that, getting stomped in the last game was a foregone conclusion. All that matters is that we're in shambles but with a lot of opportunity to get better.

 

you have a lot of money in your coffers without the marquee free agents to spend it on. The 2 biggest guys this offseason are Greinke and Hamilton, and both have psychiatric issues. And after watching the debachle at Fenway this yr, do you think either would be able to avoid the local pub after crushing defeats?

 

You want to see how to recover from a poor season? You have to time your poor season well. The Yankees sucked in 2008 due in part to a lack of pitching and had a slipping offense. It just so happened that 2 marquee free agents at positions of need came available. It is rare and will be even more rare in the future for guys like Mark Teixeira and CC Sabathia to hit the FA market.

[v2freak]

"You have to time your poor season well."

 

As if anyone has control over that. When the Sox collapsed in the September of 2011, it brought about a whole mess of changes. New coaches, a ton of new players, new management, etc. Sometimes s*** just happens

[rjortiz]

you have a lot of money in your coffers without the marquee free agents to spend it on. The 2 biggest guys this offseason are Greinke and Hamilton, and both have psychiatric issues. And after watching the debachle at Fenway this yr, do you think either would be able to avoid the local pub after crushing defeats?

 

 

With more eyes on Hamilton, it could also be more likely that he would avoid alcohol. He managed to avoid the booze after losing Game 6 and 7 of the World Series. I think he has some willpower.

 

Greinke isn't an alcoholic for all we know, so if he went to the pub after a game, I don't think that would be a big issue. Besides, who the f*** are you to claim familiarity into the lives of these two men? How could you possibly know what their triggers are, and what they consider stress to be?

[jacksonianmarch]

Greinke is an agoraphobic. Hence, he gets overwhelming sensations of fear due to situations that he feels he cannot escape. They are typically wide open spaces, like a mall, airports, bridges OR BASEBALL STADIUMS!

 

Hamilton is a substance abuser. He did everything. Boston, the drunkest city in America and one of the hubs in the heroin trade, is probably not the best place for him. Especially when substance abusers use the substances as crutches in times of strife/anxiety, etc. Boston is a boiling cauldron of pressure. Pressure causes substance abusers to crack.

 

I am not saying either will crack, but to take two guys with fragile psychiatric illnesses and put them in this situation is a risk. And at their money, it is a humongous risk

[a700hitter]

Greinke is an agoraphobic. Hence, he gets overwhelming sensations of fear due to situations that he feels he cannot escape. They are typically wide open spaces, like a mall, airports, bridges OR BASEBALL STADIUMS!

 

Hamilton is a substance abuser. He did everything. Boston, the drunkest city in America and one of the hubs in the heroin trade, is probably not the best place for him. Especially when substance abusers use the substances as crutches in times of strife/anxiety, etc. Boston is a boiling cauldron of pressure. Pressure causes substance abusers to crack.

 

I am not saying either will crack, but to take two guys with fragile psychiatric illnesses and put them in this situation is a risk. And at their money, it is a humongous risk

Fenway is a small ballpark, very cozy. It shouldn't trigger Greinke's agoraphobia.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Greinke is an agoraphobic. Hence, he gets overwhelming sensations of fear due to situations that he feels he cannot escape. They are typically wide open spaces, like a mall, airports, bridges OR BASEBALL STADIUMS!

 

Hamilton is a substance abuser. He did everything. Boston, the drunkest city in America and one of the hubs in the heroin trade, is probably not the best place for him. Especially when substance abusers use the substances as crutches in times of strife/anxiety, etc. Boston is a boiling cauldron of pressure. Pressure causes substance abusers to crack.

 

I am not saying either will crack, but to take two guys with fragile psychiatric illnesses and put them in this situation is a risk. And at their money, it is a humongous risk

So. Much. This.

 

It's amazing to me that people think the best way to rebound from the A-Gon era is to piss away another $100 million apiece on a couple of 30 year olds with bad makeup who could implode at any time. It would be one thing if we were an elite team looking for ways to upgrade while on top, but we're a 69 win team lacking leadership, stability, and good players. I'm struggling to think of a better way to waste that money.

 

We're going to be bad next year. We're probably not going to be good in 2014 either. Deal with it. The team needs to be rebuilt the right way, from the ground up. Throwing huge chunks of money at an agoraphobic and a guy with substance abuse issues isn't the solution, it will only set us back two years.

[noreaster]

Fenway is a small ballpark, very cozy. It shouldn't trigger Greinke's agoraphobia.

 

what you probaly are unaware of is that Greinke is also a claustrophobiac. so fenway is out.

[a700hitter]

So. Much. This.

 

It's amazing to me that people think the best way to rebound from the A-Gon era is to piss away another $100 million apiece on a couple of 30 year olds with bad makeup who could implode at any time. It would be one thing if we were an elite team looking for ways to upgrade while on top, but we're a 69 win team lacking leadership, stability, and good players. I'm struggling to think of a better way to waste that money.

 

We're going to be bad next year. We're probably not going to be good in 2014 either. Deal with it. The team needs to be rebuilt the right way, from the ground up. Throwing huge chunks of money at an agoraphobic and a guy with substance abuse issues isn't the solution, it will only set us back two years.

You keep saying this, and I keep asking how would you go about rebuilding the team and what would be your time horizon for getting back to being a playoff team?

__________________

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

Nothing fancy. Draft smart, gather prospects, don't spend money foolishly. Either trade Ellsbury or let him walk after next year, whichever nets you the better value. Focus on building a good bullpen for the next couple of years.

 

2015 should be the target date for getting back to serious contention. You think you can hang on until then?

[a700hitter]

Nothing fancy. Draft smart, gather prospects, don't spend money foolishly. Either trade Ellsbury or let him walk after next year, whichever nets you the better value. Focus on building a good bullpen for the next couple of years.

 

2015 should be the target date for getting back to serious contention. You think you can hang on until then?

I'll have 70,000 posts by then and most of the current members will have moved onto other stuff, college adulthood etc. Looking at the current rosters of the teams in the playoffs, each has 50%, usually more, players from outside the organization obtained through trades or free agency, including many of their star players. Like it or not, we will not get back to the playoffs solely through the draft. We will have to acquire players by trades and free agency and they will not all be cheap. If they are good, they will cost $ or top prospects or maybe both. I agree that a bullpen is a priority, but those can be built and rebuilt in a shorter time horizon than a rotation. I think that has to be a continuing focus for 2-3 years. It could bear early fruti, because pitching is the most important aspect of the game.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Nothing fancy. Draft smart, gather prospects, don't spend money foolishly. Either trade Ellsbury or let him walk after next year, whichever nets you the better value. Focus on building a good bullpen for the next couple of years.

 

2015 should be the target date for getting back to serious contention. You think you can hang on until then?

 

I think they can certainly be in the WC race as soon as next year, with a very good chance to turn into an elite team by 2014.

 

Offensively, with guys like Bogaerts, Brentz, and Bradley coming up by late 2013, early 2014, and joining the likes of Pedroia, Ellsbury (potentially) and Middlebrooks, that's a very strong, young core group of guys.

 

Pitching, guys like Barnes, Owens, De La Rosa, Webster will all start to filter in, starting in 2013 (De La Rosa) and likely all here by 2015 (Owens), and join Lester, Buchholz, and then you supplement a couple big name pitchers via trade or FA, and you've got a solid rotation too. By 2015, you could be looking at a rotation of De La Rosa - Buchholz - Lester - Barnes - Webster, with Owens taking some spot starts.

 

In terms of having a complete powerhouse team built from the ground up, I agree, 2015 seems to be the time that most of those players will have graduated up. Marrero will likely be ready by then, and you can move Bogaerts to LF, Bradley to CF, and Brentz to RF, WMB at 3B, Marrero at SS, Pedey at 2B. Swihart will probably be about ready to come up by then as well as your next catcher. If he fulfills his promise, I've heard him compared to Buster Posey, which would be a huge bat.

 

There's a lot to be excited about going forward. I think one of the biggest things is going to be getting a good 1B via trade because right now, the system is incredibly thin of 1B. A guy I'd be really interested in is Michael Morse. He could really do some damage at Fenway.

[Palodios]

I think they can certainly be in the WC race as soon as next year, with a very good chance to turn into an elite team by 2014.

 

I think many people here don't seem to realize how much flexibility the Red Sox have in their rotation. If Lester has a bounce back year, and they pick up two quality pitchers then this team is going back to the playoffs next year.

 

I don't remember there being a year in recent memory where pitchers were as widely available as they are this year. Haren/Peavy/Greinke/Lohse are all out there on the FA market, supplemented by the likes of Sanchez/ Marcum/ Ervin Santana/ Floyd/ Guthrie/ Mccarthy/ Dempster/ Kuroda/ Jackson.

 

Not to mention all the guys available for trade like Garza/ Johnson/ Lincecum/ Rodriguez/ Shields.

 

I know someone will come in and tell me why each of those guys suck... but I think there is a very good chance that it will be a buyer's market for SP this year.

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I'll have 70,000 posts by then and most of the current members will have moved onto other stuff, college adulthood etc. Looking at the current rosters of the teams in the playoffs, each has 50%, usually more, players from outside the organization obtained through trades or free agency, including many of their star players. Like it or not, we will not get back to the playoffs solely through the draft. We will have to acquire players by trades and free agency and they will not all be cheap. If they are good, they will cost $ or top prospects or maybe both. I agree that a bullpen is a priority, but those can be built and rebuilt in a shorter time horizon than a rotation. I think that has to be a continuing focus for 2-3 years. It could bear early fruti, because pitching is the most important aspect of the game.

You can't build a house without a foundation. You don't build a team by throwing around large sums of money. At some point, you have to push the reset button. Good young players are the foundation. Once you've established your core, then you go shopping on the market for whatever else you need. But it takes time to get to that point. It's unavoidable.

 

I want to focus on having a good bullpen, simply because it will get us some extra wins in the meantime. Like you said.

 

If the Red Sox are down for a few years and then return to contention, the fans will all come crawling back. They did for the Celtics after they were crap for the better part of two decades, and they were as never as big at their peak as the Red Sox have been. Management shouldn't worry.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think many people here don't seem to realize how much flexibility the Red Sox have in their rotation. If Lester has a bounce back year, and they pick up two quality pitchers then this team is going back to the playoffs next year.

 

I don't remember there being a year in recent memory where pitchers were as widely available as they are this year. Haren/Peavy/Greinke/Lohse are all out there on the FA market, supplemented by the likes of Sanchez/ Marcum/ Ervin Santana/ Floyd/ Guthrie/ Mccarthy/ Dempster/ Kuroda/ Jackson.

 

Not to mention all the guys available for trade like Garza/ Johnson/ Lincecum/ Rodriguez/ Shields.

 

I know someone will come in and tell me why each of those guys suck... but I think there is a very good chance that it will be a buyer's market for SP this year.

 

There is certainly a huge amount of SP available, as you pointed out, and that doesn't even start to mention the surprise names that seem to come out every year that are available for trade. Look at Gio Gonzalez and Trevor Cahill last year. Nobody thought they would be available.

 

After this season, you never know who is going to be available.

 

Will the Jays listen on Ricky Romero? He had a bad year last year, but going back to just 2011, he had a 2.72 ERA with 225 IP.

 

What about James Shields? Do the Rays exercise his option, or do they let guys like Archer come up and take over? It's a $9mm option that they could certainly use on the offense. If he's available, he could be a legit #2/#3 for the Sox.

 

There are always surprise pitchers who come out to be available. The Sox could sign Dan Haren and James Shields, and have a very solid top of the rotation when you combine them with Lester and Buchholz, have Lackey as your #5, and De La Rosa in AAA waiting to be called up.

 

Take Doubront and flip he and Cecchini for Michael Morse, who is entering his final season with the Nats before FA. He's got monstrous power (30 HR per 162 games over last 3 years). He's getting a bit old, though.

 

Or you could try to blow away a team like the Angels for Mark Trumbo, and at least try to pry him away.

 

Limitless options. Creativity will be all over the place this offseason.

[SoxFanForsyth]

You can't build a house without a foundation. You don't build a team by throwing around large sums of money. At some point, you have to push the reset button. Good young players are the foundation. Once you've established your core, then you go shopping on the market for whatever else you need. But it takes time to get to that point. It's unavoidable.

 

I want to focus on having a good bullpen, simply because it will get us some extra wins in the meantime. Like you said.

 

If the Red Sox are down for a few years and then return to contention, the fans will all come crawling back. They did for the Celtics after they were crap for the better part of two decades, and they were as never as big at their peak as the Red Sox have been. Management shouldn't worry.

 

The future core of the Red Sox should be Bradley, Bogaerts, Brentz, Middlebrooks, and Pedroia, with Marrero and Swihart filtering in after about a year of that core (which will be around 2015).

 

The Sox could certainly grab a few guys like Cody Ross to fill in for the positions until the core arrives, and be competitive in the meantime.

 

Just because you're rebuilding your core doesn't mean you have to suck. You can win and rebuild at the same time, you just have to make the right moves.

[Dojji]

The future core of the Red Sox should be Bradley, Bogaerts, Brentz, Middlebrooks, and Pedroia, with Marrero and Swihart filtering in after about a year of that core (which will be around 2015).

 

The Sox could certainly grab a few guys like Cody Ross to fill in for the positions until the core arrives, and be competitive in the meantime.

 

Just because you're rebuilding your core doesn't mean you have to suck. You can win and rebuild at the same time, you just have to make the right moves.

 

Yes it can happen that way -- over a period of time. Maybe a decade. Maybe more. Then whatever mistake you're most inclined to default in favor of making, either parsimony or overspending, will start catching up to you, your core talent ages, and you eventually run into situations where you have to choose between one or the other -- and a failure to make that choice results in the answer being "neither." That's what happened to us this year.

[a700hitter]

Yes it can happen that way -- over a period of time. Maybe a decade. Maybe more. Then whatever mistake you're most inclined to default in favor of making, either parsimony or overspending, will start catching up to you, your core talent ages, and you eventually run into situations where you have to choose between one or the other -- and a failure to make that choice results in the answer being "neither." That's what happened to us this year.

^What point are you trying to convey?

[Divinity]

I'll have 70,000 posts by then.

 

You'll need to make around 30 posts a day if you plan on reaching 70k in 3 years.

[a700hitter]

You'll need to make around 30 posts a day if you plan on reaching 70k in 3 years.

It's a goal.