Addressing the Starting Pitching

[SoxSport]

Does anyone still think they will contend next season?

 

I think the question is whether they will contend again as long as Henry owns the team.

They still have basically the same management organization that wrecked the team.

 

Henry made a good move selling off his overpaid underachievers, but I wonder if he has the management pieces in place to rebuild. Doubt it. His front office looks junior and overmatched against those of the best teams. They have lost too many senior types to other GM and higher jobs. And they lack a senior VP of team operations--Epstein's old job.

[Behindenemylines]

Remember this is the same owner ship group that we won in 2004 and 2007. The problem is they strayed from the plan. If BC returns to the plan that was successful I have hope that this isn't a long turn situation.

[a700hitter]

Remember this is the same owner ship group that we won in 2004 and 2007. The problem is they strayed from the plan. If BC returns to the plan that was successful I have hope that this isn't a long turn situation.

We only know one thing for sure about this ownership group--- that they take a great team and run it into the ground. We don't know if they can rebuild a team, because they took the reins of a nearly finished product. We'll just have to see if they have what it takes.

[jung]

I am not at all convinced that this bunch has what it takes. Not even sure that they believe they have what it takes. If they knew how to do it, they would have kept fannies in the seats AND not run the team into the ground at the same time. They did what they did because that is what they knew how to do.

 

So, if we do not see changes (beyond this "we stopped using James" ********) I am not at all convinced they will pull this off.They have money to spend but they have many holes to fill as well.

[Bellhorn04]

Too bad we couldn't get somebody like Miguel Gonzalez, the pitcher who beat us last night. Oh wait, we did have Gonzalez, for 3 effing years. We gave up on him, the O's signed him, and he has a lower ERA than any of our starters. More great work by the Sox organization.

[jung]

I have no real real idea why they gave up on Gonzalez but it might have had something to do with him being another soft hurler. Not sure how many sub 90 FB guys you could get away with in this division. I guess at one point Zach Stewart was a mid 90's FB guy and they were really high on him. Then he came back throwing a sub 92 FB and they lost interest.

 

Now they have hopes again regarding Zach but he obviously still needs fixing.

[mvp 78]

We only know one thing for sure about this ownership group--- that they take a great team and run it into the ground. We don't know if they can rebuild a team, because they took the reins of a nearly finished product. We'll just have to see if they have what it takes.

 

That 2001 team was not nearly a finished product. It was one of the most hated Sox teams of my lifetime... They were terrible.

[mvp 78]

Too bad we couldn't get somebody like Miguel Gonzalez, the pitcher who beat us last night. Oh wait, we did have Gonzalez, for 3 effing years. We gave up on him, the O's signed him, and he has a lower ERA than any of our starters. More great work by the Sox organization.

 

I remember all your offseason posts about Gonzalez... Oh wait, that didn't happen. What tremendous hindsight you have!

[Bellhorn04]

I remember all your offseason posts about Gonzalez... Oh wait, that didn't happen. What tremendous hindsight you have!

 

Seriously? I didn't know a thing about Gonzalez. He was in the minors. The Orioles scouts saw something in him that our scouts didn't. It looks to me like our scouts screwed up. Simple as that.

[rjortiz]

Too bad we couldn't get somebody like Miguel Gonzalez, the pitcher who beat us last night. Oh wait, we did have Gonzalez, for 3 effing years. We gave up on him, the O's signed him, and he has a lower ERA than any of our starters. More great work by the Sox organization.

 

Give me a f***ing break. Gonzalez was 27 and got raped in AA ball. I don't blame the organization for getting rid of him.

[Bellhorn04]

Give me a f***ing break. Gonzalez was 27 and got raped in AA ball. I don't blame the organization for getting rid of him.

 

Maybe our organization is just doing a s***** job at coaching and developing pitchers. The track record the last 5+ years would indicate that. We're getting nothing out of our system. And it's kind of funny that a guy like this would get picked up by another organization and succeed right away.

[example1]

Or the organization has been too talented for some of these guys to break thru and due to rules about 40 man rosters and the Sox having lots of these guys, they end up leaving one way or another... Not everything that goes against you is incompetence.

[Palodios]

Maybe our organization is just doing a s***** job at coaching and developing pitchers. The track record the last 5+ years would indicate that. We're getting nothing out of our system. And it's kind of funny that a guy like this would get picked up by another organization and succeed right away.

 

Maybe you need to take a better look at the farm system.

 

From the 2005 and 2006 drafts, they drafted Buchholz and Bard, Masterson.

From the 2009 and 2010 drafts they drafted a few prospects in the upper minors for the Red Sox, such as Ranaudo and Workman, Wilson and Hassan. The future has still to be decided on them.

 

So really, there is only that gap of talent from 2007-2008. A group that includes Kelly, Hagadone, Price, Fife, Weiland-- players that never got the opportunity to show what the system churned out. Britton is the only notable pitcher left from that group.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm just frustrated that a team with our resources has seen its pitching slide steadily to the bottom of the league the last few years.

[mvp 78]

Sox should have never let Babe go.

 

Shouldn't have dicked around with Fisk's contract.

 

Should have juiced up Clemens in the early 90's.

 

Can't believe they got rid of young Schilling.

 

Larry Andersen for Bagwell, you kidding me!

 

This organization blows! Am I doing this right?

[mvp 78]

Today's lineup should be:

 

Ells CF

Pedey 2b

Youk dh

Reddick RF

Rizzo 1b

Han Ram SS

Moss LF

Kottaras C

Freddy Sanchez 3b

 

That sounds like a lineup you'd have just creamed over in January! If they only never traded anyone...

[a700hitter]

That 2001 team was not nearly a finished product. It was one of the most hated Sox teams of my lifetime... They were terrible.

This ownership got handed a team with Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez and Nomar Garciaparra in their primes, a blossoming Varitek, Lowe and Damon. They got handed a ton of talent, much more than they have today. I stand by my statement. This Ownership and FO has proved that they can run a great team into the ground. They have yet to prove that they can build a great team from the ground up. That's what they need to do now. We'll find out if they can.

[mvp 78]

How many WS games did Nomar appear in?

 

The 2001 team was a car without 4 wheels, a starter, an alternator, brakes, etc. Sure, there were good pieces, but it was in no way a finished product...

[Behindenemylines]

I agree that the team that this group was handed was not a finished product yet. If you look at some of the pieces that Theo added it put them over the top. With a little luck they could have won back to back titles in 2003 and 2004. Just think if both the Sox and the Cubs had reached the WS in 2003. That would have been something.

[a700hitter]

I agree that the team that this group was handed was not a finished product yet. If you look at some of the pieces that Theo added it put them over the top. With a little luck they could have won back to back titles in 2003 and 2004. Just think if both the Sox and the Cubs had reached the WS in 2003. That would have been something.

Duke handed over the reigns of a team with Manny, Pedro, Varitek, Lowe, Damon and Trot. That's a nice head start. They don't have anything close to that now. They will have to build this team from the ground up. They have never done that before.

 

As bad a the 2001 team finished, it wasn't anywhere as bad as this team or the he September version of the 2011 team. The 2001 team fell apart when Pedro went down and it came apart at the seams when Kerrigan was handed the reigns.

[SoxSport]

Aceves s*** the bed again today. The writers are calling for his head. Instead, they should go after Valentine's head--or what's left of it after a season of frustration.

 

Looks to me as though Aceves has become a whipping boy for what ails the team--which is bad management--right up the line. The guy has been asked to do just about everything this year except maybe clean the clubhouse toilets (I say maybe), and everybody's wondering why he is cooked.

 

In the absence of a closer and setup guy, Aceves was asked to plug the closer hole, which he did in a reasonable fashion--considering he is not a closer. All the while, Bard was still struggling as a starter, if only to satisfy the front office egos who put him there--with disastrous consequences. And then, when it was time for Bailey to start closing again, Aceves was just pushed aside--ignored by the manager.Not told of the change.

 

It seems as though everything the Red Sox have done with their pitching this year has blown up in their faces. They have done little right--no wonder Henry threw up the white flag and is trying to get more management help. They have f**ked up two careers, Bard and Aceves, for different reasons. Bard, one of the best setup guys in the game, was moved to starter; Aceves, the jack of all pitching trades, was victimized by a lack of communication by his frustrated manager. He has now joined the growing ranks of Red Sox underachievers. In the meantime, the Yankees are salivating--just waiting for the Red Sox to release Aceves--so they can grab him back.

 

Henry knows the score. He realizes by now he has a bunch of unhappy players--because his management sucks.

[SoxSport]

Today's lineup should be:

 

Ells CF

Pedey 2b

Youk dh

Reddick RF

Rizzo 1b

Han Ram SS

Moss LF

Kottaras C

Freddy Sanchez 3b

 

That sounds like a lineup you'd have just creamed over in January! If they only never traded anyone...

 

Yeah, but no Beckett, no 07 championship. And Hanley has regressed. Youks looks like he has declined, too, after a few seasons of injuries. Switching to 3B didn't help, either. Ells and Pedey are still here, though Ells will be gone at some point. Rizzo got traded by San Diego, so he wasn't a sure thing. Reddick is a low on-base, low average guy who has developed power in the majors. Maybe one of Cherington's mistakes trading him.

[Palodios]

This ownership got handed a team with Manny Ramirez, Pedro Martinez and Nomar Garciaparra in their primes, a blossoming Varitek, Lowe and Damon.

 

It seems almost as if you forget that 2007 even happened.

[a700hitter]

It seems almost as if you forget that 2007 even happened.

Again, that was not built from the ground up. They had won in 2004, went to the playoffs in 2005, and averaged 94 wins over the prior 4 years, so they hardly built that team from the ground up. They have a challenge now unlike any they have had during their ownership tenure. They need to rebuild a team and organization that is in tatters. It's nothing like 2007.

[jung]

I don't believe that this Red Sox ownership group has confronted anything like the challenge it has before it now. This is a complete ground up rebuilding project that will likely require major changes in both the team and the organization.

 

Just looking at the team for example, they are at such a crossroads that they could if they choose decide to go with a complete youth movement employing guys that played in Pawtucket in 2012 in several key positions in 2013. They were not in anything like that sort of position going into the 2007 season. Even if one wanted to argue that the dismantling of a very good team did not happen on their watch it would not be possible to argue that anything they have done up to this point is the equivalent of the challenge that faces them today.

 

This discussion reminds me of many of the discussions that occurred after 2011 when we had many adopt the view that all this team needed was a few minor tweaks to be very competitive in 2012. How did that work out for ya'?

 

It needs much more than a few minor tweaks including a complete overhaul of the starting pitching and the bull pen.

 

In virtually every position or grouping of personnel assets, the only "bases" they have covered are those that are the easiest to cover. They once again have question marks all over the rotation. The closest thing they have to a sure thing in the rotation is Buch. The bullpen is a mess. They have a bunch of guys that would possibly fit into middle to long relief roles starting fresh innings. They do not have a reliable "fireman" anywhere and the key setup and closer positions are anything but solid. Aceves for his part, will very likely be gone as he has become just the sort of player they will likely decide they need to get off of this team going forward. You could probably convince yourself that Tazawa gets one of the key set up positions and beyond that you have just about nothing solid. Atch will very likely opt for TJ in the offseason and he did not do well in fireman roles or very often late in games. So once again even he represents the type of relief arm they have.

 

The everyday players have Pedey and then what? Is there anybody beyond Pedey that is not flawed in some major way? WMB maybe if he improves in some key areas. WMB is an exciting player dripping with potential but he is far from a complete player at this point. Ells is very likely gone after 2013. The only good thing you can say about the situation in CF is that the Sox likely have his replacement down on the farm. If anything the Sox might decide to bring Ortiz back for that exact reason. They don't have everyday player positions locked down anywhere with a high likelihood of employing a pretty large contingent of the 2012 Pawtucket roster as the core of the 2013 Sox team making Ortiz more attractive than he might be otherwise.

 

The youth movement option is not only likely but may well be recommended. However it certainly does not sound promising in the near term. Even our hopes for 2014 would in the main appear to hinge upon employing even more players from the farm system to supplement those Pawtucket players that will likely be used extensively in 2013. I am not charging that this might be wrong headed, just the opposite. However it simply does not suggest a team that will occupy a strong 2013 position in an AL that is choke full of beefed up teams. Missteps they take in 2013 and 2014 will have implications for the 2015 and 2016 teams. So they have little room for more of the ******** that has typified their decision making about personnel since the Beckett extension of 2010 or in the blink of an eye they could be looking at yet another four to five years of not being competitive even while making improvements.

 

There is one thing I have seen in the last few weeks, specifically since "the trade" that the Sox themselves should look at seriously. Once the shock of the trade was behind them, the team that remained played more like a team than at any time this season up to that point. It is not a good team. As such, it has not done all that well but it has played more like a team even while still having some guys around that likely need to just plain GO. One reason that going with the youth movement seems so appealing is because the team it has today is dripping with mediocrity. Under those circumstances, why not go with a young, interesting group of players that will at the very least play cohesively around Pedey at the center of it all. Ross is the most interesting of the highly flawed group which includes Aviles, Salty, Pods, Nava, Loney, Sweeney.....it just goes on and on. I can surely see them keeping Ross but the rest should be gone or will have much reduced roles in 2013. Either they are players with a very specific talent like Ross, or players with little to no talent that make due by having become experienced students of the game like Nava.

 

Coaches and the Manager will change......and THEN there is the FO and upper management.

[Palodios]

Again, that was not built from the ground up. They had won in 2004, went to the playoffs in 2005, and averaged 94 wins over the prior 4 years, so they hardly built that team from the ground up. They have a challenge now unlike any they have had during their ownership tenure. They need to rebuild a team and organization that is in tatters. It's nothing like 2007.

 

Oh, I understand what you mean now. So essentially taking a team with no farm system whatsoever, and no impact players whatsoever and turning it into a winner. Honestly, that scenario seems pretty improbable to me, mostly because they'd be drafting very low in the draft for enough years to make atleast some superstars available. The only teams we see do something like that end up taking several years to make that kind of shift.

 

The reality is that the core players from 2007 came from this ownership, not the ownership before. Schilling, Beckett, Lowell, Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester, Papelbon, Timlin, Okajima. The only impact players still around from the previous era were Manny and Varitek.

 

I would argue that a core of Pedroia, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester, Middlebrooks, Ortiz is more than enough foundation to say that the Red Sox will be "building from nothing" is an inaccurate assessment.

[a700hitter]

Oh, I understand what you mean now. So essentially taking a team with no farm system whatsoever, and no impact players whatsoever and turning it into a winner. Honestly, that scenario seems pretty improbable to me, mostly because they'd be drafting very low in the draft for enough years to make atleast some superstars available. The only teams we see do something like that end up taking several years to make that kind of shift.

 

The reality is that the core players from 2007 came from this ownership, not the ownership before. Schilling, Beckett, Lowell, Ortiz, Pedroia, Lester, Papelbon, Timlin, Okajima. The only impact players still around from the previous era were Manny and Varitek.

 

I would argue that a core of Pedroia, Buchholz, Ellsbury, Lester, Middlebrooks, Ortiz is more than enough foundation to say that the Red Sox will be "building from nothing" is an inaccurate assessment.

I disagree. I am not denying them credit for the 2007 team. I am just stating the obvious. This ownership has never been presented with the challenge of rebuilding a last place team that loses 90 games. GMs that take teams like that to the post season are candidates to win executive of the year. This challenge is much different than anything they have faced. The talent is very thin. Look at the roster. We stink. I don't know what 2007 has to do with this.

[Rdsxmbnt]

It seems almost as if you forget that 2007 even happened.

 

Doesnt fit the agenda

[a700hitter]

Doesnt fit the agenda

The agenda?

[example1]

I disagree. I am not denying them credit for the 2007 team. I am just stating the obvious. This ownership has never been presented with the challenge of rebuilding a last place team that loses 90 games. GMs that take teams like that to the post season are candidates to win executive of the year. This challenge is much different than anything they have faced. The talent is very thin. Look at the roster. We stink. I don't know what 2007 has to do with this.

 

The only reason it was brought up seems to be because you linked previous WS victories with a comment about this FO not having built it. It was a shot at this ownerships claim to success. Obviously they played a huge role in transforming what they had into the team that won the WS. There's no question..

 

All that said, aside from whether or not they built those teams, you are right about them not having had a challenge like this before. The buzz from the big trade has worn off and now they have the money but it is questionable if the correct targets are even out there, especially before 2013.