Addressing the Starting Pitching

[Palodios]

Everyone seems to think the Yankees just throw money at their problems. I want you to look at the reasons why the Yankees are where they are right now...

 

Robinson Cano- home grown

Andy Pettitte- $2 mil signing

Hiroki Kuroda- 1 yr, $10 mil deal (a pittance for good pitching)

Russell Martin- non-tender signee two yrs back

Eric Chavez- $1 mil per yr

Raul Ibanez- $1 mil per yr

Ivan Nova and Phil Hughes- home grown

David Phelps, David Robertson- home grown

Jeter- home grown, ridiculous contract

Granderson- acquired in a trade that wasnt a salary dump

Swisher- acquired in a trade

 

The big money expenditures on this team are guys like Tex, Arod, CC, and Soriano. This team is built from the rubber first which is why they are in first. They were built on offense from 2004-2008 and it got them embarassed and even missing the playoffs once. The money allows them to eat more of their mistakes, but Cashman has been good with the little money moves and has allowed some development of their minor league system. I hate the deal with ARod, but so be it.

 

Small money moves can often be the best ones. Cody Ross, Scutaro, Beltre, Aceves, Dan Wheeler, it seems like this FO rarely makes mistakes with small money, just big money.

[jacksonianmarch]

The big money moves have time to fester and turn into bad money moves. The thing is, you look at ARod. The guy was signed after a 2007 season that was for the ages. He earned his money for 2 seasons, was adequate in 2010 and has been an injury plagued, good player with a bloated contract for the last two seasons. For the first 3 yrs, you could say that he was close to worth the contract (nobody is worth 27.5 mil a yr). These tremendously long deals hamstring teams in the end.

[Behindenemylines]

The $pankees starting infield (Tex, Cano, Jeter and ARod) make more money this year then the following teams: Reds, Mariners, O's, Nats, Guardians, Rockies, Jays, DBacks, Rays, Pirates, Royals, Astros, A's and Padres. They picked up big contracts (I know they only have to pay a percentage, but what other teams could afford them) in Ichiro 18 mil and Lowe $15 mil. They paid a setup guy (Soriano) 12 mil. Don't tell me they don't throw money at the problems. If they ever win a championship and don't have the highest payroll I will be the first to admit money doesn't matter.

[jacksonianmarch]

and now you are missing the point and making absolutely stupid points with Lowe (signed to the veteran minimum) and Ichiro ($2 mil for the Yankees).

[SoxFanForsyth]

and now you are missing the point and making absolutely stupid points with Lowe (signed to the veteran minimum) and Ichiro ($2 mil for the Yankees).

 

The fact remains, though, that the Yankees are able to retain their homegrown players, which is what separates the Yankees from most other teams who can't lock up their home grown players to long term, big money deals (i.e. Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte historically, etc), and then still go out and sign big money complimentary pieces (i.e. Sabathia, Soriano, ARod, Teixeira).

[Behindenemylines]

I said I know that the $pankees only a perecentage of Ichiro and Lowes contracts, but that is still 3 or 4 million for two months. The argument that money doesn't let the $panks make the playoffs every year can not be made. What other team can invest a sh_t load of money on a contract like ARods and not be effected for years other then the $panks.

[DocHolliday]

The fact remains, though, that the Yankees are able to retain their homegrown players, which is what separates the Yankees from most other teams who can't lock up their home grown players to long term, big money deals (i.e. Jeter, Rivera, Pettitte historically, etc), and then still go out and sign big money complimentary pieces (i.e. Sabathia, Soriano, ARod, Teixeira).

 

Or, if you do try and go that route, you risk missing on the big money complimentary pieces and you're in the payroll position the Red Sox were before the mega trade.

 

Even if you discount the deals for fill ins like Lowe and Ichiro, these types of deals would be impossible for all teams not named the Yankees to make if the guys they had originally penciled in to do the job become injured or underperform (Gardner as an example).

 

We have learned this season that this was the exact position the Red Sox were put in. And it took an even more desperate club to acquire some of the teams most underperforming assets to get the payroll flexibility back in place. If any team not named the Yankees would be able to acquire even more supporting pieces for an underperforming team, it would have been the Red Sox.

[jacksonianmarch]

You guys are sox fans. Stop acting like you're A's fans

[a700hitter]

You guys are sox fans. Stop acting like you're A's fans

I hate when my fellow Sox fans whine about Yankee money like the Sox are a small market team. They have plenty of resources. The problem is they have squandered hundreds of millions of dollars on suck ass players.

[Bellhorn04]

The Yankees have been getting pieces that fit, like Granderson, Martin, Kuroda, even guys like Ibanez and Ichiro. I questioned the Granderson trade a bit at the time, but he's got back to back 40 HR seasons.

[DocHolliday]

I hate when my fellow Sox fans whine about Yankee money like the Sox are a small market team. They have plenty of resources. The problem is they have squandered hundreds of millions of dollars on suck ass players.

 

This is the crux of the issue no doubt. The only reason the Sox got into this situation in the 1st place was by committing large sums of money and years to players in FA who turned out to be total busts in this market.

 

My point wasn't to say that the Sox were limited as if they were a small market team. Instead, I was saying that they put themselves into a situation where they had little to no payroll flexibility to make some of the moves last offseason necessary to fill holes for this year's team if problems arised. As we all witnessed, the problems were numerous and they did not have the ability to fill the holes as the Yankees were able to do.

 

Don't be surprised if the Yankees are having similar types of payroll flexibility issues in the next few seasons. Unless there's another Dodgers type of team on the horizon, there's no getting out of an average of $70 M committed to players who will be well past their prime years. In a post performance enhancing drug period, this game should go back to being driven by young players - not by 35 + year veterans.

 

Maybe they will have better luck than the Sox have had the past few seasons at getting the production from FA acquisitions, extending their current younger players, and/or emergence of new young players through trades or the farm.

 

Fact is - the Sox thought they were wisely committing the additional money and it blew up in their face. Who says it can't happen to someone else?

[a700hitter]

This is the crux of the issue no doubt. The only reason the Sox got into this situation in the 1st place was by committing large sums of money and years to players in FA who turned out to be total busts in this market.

 

My point wasn't to say that the Sox were limited as if they were a small market team. Instead, I was saying that they put themselves into a situation where they had little to no payroll flexibility to make some of the moves last offseason necessary to fill holes for this year's team if problems arised. As we all witnessed, the problems were numerous and they did not have the ability to fill the holes as the Yankees were able to do.

 

Don't be surprised if the Yankees are having similar types of payroll flexibility issues in the next few seasons. Unless there's another Dodgers type of team on the horizon, there's no getting out of an average of $70 M committed to players who will be well past their prime years. In a post performance enhancing drug period, this game should go back to being driven by young players - not by 35 + year veterans.

 

Maybe they will have better luck than the Sox have had the past few seasons at getting the production from FA acquisitions, extending their current younger players, and/or emergence of new young players through trades or the farm.

 

Fact is - the Sox thought they were wisely committing the additional money and it blew up in their face. Who says it can't happen to someone else?

I wasn't directing my comment at you. I apologize if it came off that way. It's just something that has annoyed me for years when our brethren complain about the Yankees' money. We have plenty of money to succeed if they stop doing a suck-ass job.

[rjortiz]

Everyone seems to think the Yankees just throw money at their problems. I want you to look at the reasons why the Yankees are where they are right now...

 

Robinson Cano- home grown

Andy Pettitte- $2 mil signing

Hiroki Kuroda- 1 yr, $10 mil deal (a pittance for good pitching)

Russell Martin- non-tender signee two yrs back

Eric Chavez- $1 mil per yr

Raul Ibanez- $1 mil per yr

Ivan Nova and Phil Hughes- home grown

David Phelps, David Robertson- home grown

Jeter- home grown, ridiculous contract

Granderson- acquired in a trade that wasnt a salary dump

Swisher- acquired in a trade

 

The big money expenditures on this team are guys like Tex, Arod, CC, and Soriano. This team is built from the rubber first which is why they are in first. They were built on offense from 2004-2008 and it got them embarassed and even missing the playoffs once. The money allows them to eat more of their mistakes, but Cashman has been good with the little money moves and has allowed some development of their minor league system. I hate the deal with ARod, but so be it.

 

Are you f***ing serious? Why do you write homegrown as if that negates the Yankees massive monetary advantage over the majority of the league? Did you ever stop to think that the Yankees can retain their homegrown talent? The Rays are about to lose BJ Upton, who will probably wind up in Yankee Stadium in 2013. Oh, maybe the Rays can write HOMEGROWN next to BJ Upton. That would keep him in Tampa for sure.

 

I don't complain about the Yankees payroll, but this was a stupid argument.

[jung]

The Sox did commit huge dollars to the wrong players. They were the wrong players, the wrong types of players, they just could have done worse in that regard. They compounded the problem by trading away prospects that were close to being ready to perform at the big league level leaving a big hole in the train of cost controlled players that should have been working their way up to the big club.

 

LL made comments recently acknowledging that the Sox have not been aggressive enough about bringing players up through the farm system in a timely manner leaving them to languish to long at AA and AAA. I agree with those sentiments as well. Instead of always viewing risk in terms of some big FA signing the Sox need to sustain more risk in the form of moving players through the farm system and up to the big club before they are cold-locks for rookie of the year honors mainly because they are the most polished rookies of any given year. They tend to spent ungodly amounts of time being groomed in the minors before finally being allowed up here, that is unless they get injured in the process down there.

[DocHolliday]

I wasn't directing my comment at you. I apologize if it came off that way. It's just something that has annoyed me for years when our brethren complain about the Yankees' money. We have plenty of money to succeed if they stop doing a suck-ass job.

 

No worries 700 - I just wanted to reiterate my original point and didn't think anyone was personally attacking me or anything like that.

 

The payroll complaints annoy me as well. Here in Texas, the complaints about payroll were rampant when the Red Sox or Yankees played and beat the Rangers on a regular basis. These days, the Rangers are winning and have raised payroll at a rate higher than any other team in the league and fans look the other way. It wouldn't surprise me if the Rangers had a higher payroll than the Red Sox next season as they currently have more $ committed to players next season than the Sox. But the fact is no matter what your payroll capabilities are, it still goes back to how well you utilize your resources.

 

The past few years have been a ridiculous display of how to manage payroll and resources. Unfortunately, the organization misinterpreted the fans desire for a winning team and tried to show their commitment to the fans desire by buying the most expensive FA on the market over the course of several seasons. It's as if they said to themselves "if we spend the money, they will know we are committed to winning." Instead, they spent to their limits on bad investments to the point where they had no flexibility and the fans, if I can speak for us, are either highly disappointed, embarrassed, furious, or some combination of all at their mistakes.

 

My hope is that something clicked on Yawkey Way at some point in this miserable season where they said "We can have all of the 100 years of Fenway celebrations, the coffee table books, the bricks, and all of the other pomp and circumstance we want, but it all means nothing if our product on the field loses on a consistent basis. This has been miserable for all of us, and we have let the fans down by placing our focus on the ancillary benefits that come from winning. We have to remember this mistake and never again let our primary focus waver from doing what's best for the team to sustain long term winning."

[SoxFanForsyth]

I'm not saying the Sox don't spend boatloads of money.

 

But Jackso was insinuating that the Yankees winning had nothing to do with the money they spend, when in all reality, they wouldn't be where they are right now without spending the money that they spend.

[a700hitter]

I'm not saying the Sox don't spend boatloads of money.

 

But Jackso was insinuating that the Yankees winning had nothing to do with the money they spend, when in all reality, they wouldn't be where they are right now without spending the money that they spend.

There is no sense whining about Yankee money when the Sox have plenty of money to compete with and beat the Yankees. Instead, we are trailing them by 25 freaking games and we have won the division 1 time. Money was not the reason for any of this. The Yankees are a flat out better organization from top to bottom in their baseball operations. The Red Sox have a superior marketing department. They nee desperately to improve their baseball operations.

[SoxFanForsyth]

There is no sense whining about Yankee money when the Sox have plenty of money to compete with and beat the Yankees. Instead, we are trailing them by 25 freaking games and we have won the division 1 time. Money was not the reason for any of this. The Yankees are a flat out better organization from top to bottom in their baseball operations. The Red Sox have a superior marketing department. They nee desperately to improve their baseball operations.

 

You're not listening to me.

 

I'm not saying that the Sox don't spend money. I'm saying the Yankees do spend money and that makes a significant contribution to their success. Jackso was virtually arguing against that.

[a700hitter]

You're not listening to me.

 

I'm not saying that the Sox don't spend money. I'm saying the Yankees do spend money and that makes a significant contribution to their success. Jackso was virtually arguing against that.

I know. SFF, I wasn't directing the whining comment at you, but at Red Sox fans in general. When we are getting our clocks cleaned too many people have a knee-jerk reaction of complaining about Yankee money.

 

We at TalkSox should institute a prohibition against such whining along with the soon to be government imposed prohibition against disparaging the Prophet Muhammad.

[Bellhorn04]

I whined about the Yankees when they had their spending explosion after 2008 and then won it all. But in the 3 seasons since then, Hal Steinbrenner seems to have really reigned it in and they are making some smart moves without adding much payroll.

 

In 2003-2004 the Red Sox were spending significantly less than the Yankees and being smarter than them. I enjoyed that a lot. But as our spending went up we got much stupider.

 

It's not an irreversible process, and hopefully the Dodgers trade was just the start of being a smart organization again.

[a700hitter]

I whined about the Yankees when they had their spending explosion after 2008 and then won it all. But in the 3 seasons since then, Hal Steinbrenner seems to have really reigned it in and they are making some smart moves without adding much payroll.

 

In 2003-2004 the Red Sox were spending significantly less than the Yankees and being smarter than them. I enjoyed that a lot. But as our spending went up we got much stupider.

 

It's not an irreversible process, and hopefully the Dodgers trade was just the start of being a smart organization again.

I'd prefer that the FO put money into the product on the field, but they might as well have had a few chimps running the place the last 3 years or so.

[jung]

It would be hard to argue that the Sox FO has performed step for step with the Spanks FO. The Sox have spent plenty of money. However they spent it foolishly on players that have not added enough horsepower to the Sox overall ability to produce wins. In many cases they have not even been adds that have complimented the existing players that were already here.

 

A baseball team is not a compilation of stats. This is not some rotisserie league. It almost has seemed like the the Sox FO has approached team building like they are in some rotisserie league.

 

In addition, the Sox have seemed reluctant to bring players from the farm system up to the ML team choosing to fill spots with costly FA and or trading players from the farm system away that would likely be good adds to the ML team. this is something LL has even talked about recently.

 

Where I think both organizations have run afoul is that they have relied to heavily on older stars under long term contract and to some extent both are paying a price for that. The older stars break down more and are not as capable of coming back from injury. Still and all, the Spanks have in my view done a better job of mitigating that particular issue.

[DocHolliday]

It would be hard to argue that the Sox FO has performed step for step with the Spanks FO. The Sox have spent plenty of money. However they spent it foolishly on players that have not added enough horsepower to the Sox overall ability to produce wins. In many cases they have not even been adds that have complimented the existing players that were already here.

 

A baseball team is not a compilation of stats. This is not some rotisserie league. It almost has seemed like the the Sox FO has approached team building like they are in some rotisserie league.

 

In addition, the Sox have seemed reluctant to bring players from the farm system up to the ML team choosing to fill spots with costly FA and or trading players from the farm system away that would likely be good adds to the ML team. this is something LL has even talked about recently.

 

Where I think both organizations have run afoul is that they have relied to heavily on older stars under long term contract and to some extent both are paying a price for that. The older stars break down more and are not as capable of coming back from injury. Still and all, the Spanks have in my view done a better job of mitigating that particular issue.

 

Up to this point, the Yankees have certainly done a better job at mitigating the issue of getting the most out of their older stars. There is no doubt that, despite their larger quantity of resources, they have been far more efficient with what they have than the Sox.

 

However, given the changes in the landscape of the game, I feel the Yankees will have a harder time managing their resources in the near future if they continue to rely heavily on FA. With more organizations adopting a strong commitment to their farm system and the number of local and national TV contract revenues that are coming to a majority of teams in the league, the quality of players that will make it to FA will not be what it once was. Over the past few seasons, more and more teams are signing their top talent to LT contracts that buy out their arbitration years and thus, their prime years.

 

Several years ago, there were only a handful of teams that could afford to sign their top talent guys once they got late into arbitration or hit free agency. All across the league, we are seeing teams that are making that commitment long before players get the chance to hit FA. If done early enough, it gives the player security and it creates additional value for the team they sign with. The recent national and some organizations local tv contracts will help all teams receive the additional money they need to sign their guys far before they reach FA.

 

If this trend continues, there is little doubt in my mind that the new competitive advantages will be stronger scouting and development personnel/systems than your opponents and better payroll flexibility than your opponents. With the large sums of money the Yankees have committed to aging veterans, they may be forced to keep payroll above the luxury tax or seriously strengthen their scouting/development department to stay at the level they are at now.

[Behindenemylines]

The point that I think some are trying to make is that the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that the $pankees have allows them to make mistakes with contracts (like AROD's who I think will start collecting social security when his contract is up) and not have to pay long term for them. Also look at some of the problems they had this season. Gardiner hurt, no problem we will get Ichiro. Rivera gets hurt, no problem we paid $12 mil for an insurance policy (Soriano). Then there are those that sign one year deals with the $panks knowing that if they have a good season they have the possibility of getting big $$$$$. All other teams can not make mistakes or they have seasons like the Sox 2012 season.

[a700hitter]

The point that I think some are trying to make is that the $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that the $pankees have allows them to make mistakes with contracts (like AROD's who I think will start collecting social security when his contract is up) and not have to pay long term for them. Also look at some of the problems they had this season. Gardiner hurt, no problem we will get Ichiro. Rivera gets hurt, no problem we paid $12 mil for an insurance policy (Soriano). Then there are those that sign one year deals with the $panks knowing that if they have a good season they have the possibility of getting big $$$$$. All other teams can not make mistakes or they have seasons like the Sox 2012 season.

We have made big money mistakes for many years-- much worse than the Yankees.

[Behindenemylines]

The $pankees never seem to pay for their mistakes. That is why the Dodger trade is a blessing for us. Just think of 2013 with those dollars still on the Sox payroll. We would probably be having the same conversion next year at this time as we are now.

[Station 13]

We have made big money mistakes for many years-- much worse than the Yankees.

 

Not signing Holliday open the floodgates of bad signings.

[Behindenemylines]

Also the $pankees never lose homegrown players that they want to keep. They just throw more $$$$$$ at them and they sign. I can't even think of a $pankee homegrown all-star that left as a free agent. CAN ANYONE THINK OF ANYONE? Now look at the Rays. They can't afford to sign most of their homegrown all-stars because they end up becoming to expensive. I read somewhere that Price might be shopped around because he has reached the point where he makes to much.

[DocHolliday]

Also the $pankees never lose homegrown players that they want to keep. They just throw more $$$$$$ at them and they sign. I can't even think of a $pankee homegrown all-star that left as a free agent. CAN ANYONE THINK OF ANYONE? Now look at the Rays. They can't afford to sign most of their homegrown all-stars because they end up becoming to expensive. I read somewhere that Price might be shopped around because he has reached the point where he makes to much.

 

I think you may be confusing Price and Shields. Price is due to hit arbitration for the 2nd time, and he will almost certainly receive a contract north of $10 M if he gets that far. Shields is due for an option of $9 M or a $1.5 M buyout.

 

Haven't heard anything related to the Rays shopping Price, but I'd be surprised if both are in the Rays rotation next season. If I'm the Rays, I'm looking to deal Shields far before I consider dealing Price. The new national TV deals should help the Rays afford to pay for Price next season - even if he reaches arbitration.

[a700hitter]

Not signing Holliday open the floodgates of bad signings.

I agree