Red Sox 2012/2013 Offseason Thread

[SoxFanForsyth]

It's time.

 

I will say this, I am more excited about this offseason than I have been for any offseason in years. There have got to be some significant changes.

 

Problem is, recent quotes from Cherrington have made me very weary of the moves he's going to make, including the following:

 

Cherington was asked before Sunday's 4-1 loss to the New York Yankees, a game which left Beckett with just one win in his past 13 starts, whether he regarded Lester, Beckett and Clay Buchholz as "foundational pieces" to next year's starting rotation.

 

"Sure," Cherington said. "It's no secret our starting pitching has not been as good as it used to be, if you look at the entirety of the season. Part of improving it is simply to help our guys get back closer to what they've been in the past, and those are key guys.

 

And also....

 

Cherington said that there have not been any discussions to this point about whether Bard might go to spring training next year as a starter or reliever.

 

"We haven’t talked about that. Right now just focused on getting him going on right track. He knows exactly what he needs to do and he’s working on it every day, and there are days where he’s a click away, and maybe he is. He’s got enough talent," Cherington said. "The role is something we can talk about in the offseason."

 

I will say this. If the Red Sox go into the 2013 season with the exact same rotation as they went into the 2012 season, there will be torches and pitchforks at Fenway.

 

So, lets hear it. What are your moves. From manager down to bench players and relievers.

[a700hitter]

It's time.

 

I will say this, I am more excited about this offseason than I have been for any offseason in years. There have got to be some significant changes.

 

Problem is, recent quotes from Cherrington have made me very weary of the moves he's going to make, including the following:

 

 

 

And also....

 

 

 

I will say this. If the Red Sox go into the 2013 season with the exact same rotation as they went into the 2012 season, there will be torches and pitchforks at Fenway.

 

So, lets hear it. What are your moves. From manager down to bench players and relievers.

There will be no torches and pitchforks. There won't be many fans either.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Looks like the Red Sox are ready to move forward. The following items have happened today:

 

1. Carl Crawford's surgery has been scheduled for Thursday (8/23).

 

2. Pitching coach Bob McClure has been fired.

 

3. Jose Iglesias has been scratched from the PawSox lineup. He's hitting .348/.423/.420 in 18 games in August and continues to drop jaws with his glove.

 

Hopefully this is a sign that Aviles has been traded.

[Elktonnick]

Looks like the Red Sox are ready to move forward. The following items have happened today:

 

1. Carl Crawford's surgery has been scheduled for Thursday (8/23).

 

2. Pitching coach Bob McClure has been fired.

 

3. Jose Iglesias has been scratched from the PawSox lineup. He's hitting .348/.423/.420 in 18 games in August and continues to drop jaws with his glove.

 

Hopefully this is a sign that Aviles has been traded.

 

Finally the worst pitching coach in recent club history is axed.

[Orange Juiced]

Looks like the Red Sox are ready to move forward. The following items have happened today:

 

1. Carl Crawford's surgery has been scheduled for Thursday (8/23).

 

2. Pitching coach Bob McClure has been fired.

 

3. Jose Iglesias has been scratched from the PawSox lineup. He's hitting .348/.423/.420 in 18 games in August and continues to drop jaws with his glove.

 

Hopefully this is a sign that Aviles has been traded.

 

I'm happy with all of these moves.

[DocHolliday]

Looks like the Red Sox are ready to move forward. The following items have happened today:

 

1. Carl Crawford's surgery has been scheduled for Thursday (8/23).

 

2. Pitching coach Bob McClure has been fired.

 

3. Jose Iglesias has been scratched from the PawSox lineup. He's hitting .348/.423/.420 in 18 games in August and continues to drop jaws with his glove.

 

Hopefully this is a sign that Aviles has been traded.

 

I think I read somewhere that Iglesias was taken out due to a minor ankle injury and might be out a few days.

 

Regardless, Aviles needs to be traded soon before he gets injured as well. The amount of injuries, phantom or not, has been off the charts for this year's team.

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think I read somewhere that Iglesias was taken out due to a minor ankle injury and might be out a few days.

 

Regardless, Aviles needs to be traded soon before he gets injured as well. The amount of injuries, phantom or not, has been off the charts for this year's team.

 

I did see that he jammed his ankle sliding into home the other day, but I don't think they would put him in the lineup originally if he was hurt from yesterday.

[SoxSport]

I read Iggy sprained his ankle, and didn't play Monday because of that. They'll be hell to pay if he isn't in the September callup.

 

Aside from the Bard fiasco, I think the single stupidest thing Cherington did this year was not to bring up Iggy sooner. You wonder how long Ben will continue to get a free ride from the media.

 

The team would have been much better off this year had Lav and Iggy been on the team from the start like Valentine wanted. Valentine backed down because of his buddy Lucchino.

[jacksonianmarch]

Aviles has actually had a great defensive season with a UZR/150 of 10.6 and a WAR of 2.3. Iglesias will likely not have that much of an impact in yr 1. Lavarnway, you might have a point. I think a lot of the sox pitching weakness comes from a weak catcher. That being said, a rookie catcher isnt likely going to change that

[jacksonianmarch]

•Mike DiGiovanna of the LA Times would not be surprised if the Angels try to engage the Red Sox in trade talks about a possible John Lackey for Vernon Wells deal this offseason (Twitter links). Wells, who has $42MM on his contract after 2012, could be a fit in Fenway Park, DiGiovanna writes. Lackey, who pitched in Anaheim from 2002-09, has $30.5MM remaining on his contract after 2012.

 

This from mlbtraderumors.com. I dont see why the sox would want this. Wells has played like s*** for a few yrs now and Lackey is coming off surgery. Also, the sox need pitching and if Lackey returns to a semblance of his prior form, they would be better served keeping him. Obviously, if he sucks in his return, they could rekindle the deal since Wells would likely still suck anyway

[jung]

Will BC's biggest mistake relative to the assets he had available to him in Pawtucket be Iggy not being brought in earlier or will it be Lavs not being brought in earlier? The way Aviles and Salty were playing you could about make a case for either being an issue I think.

 

I don't wonder if the Sox FO simply could not have tolerated seeing out there on the field at the same time, Iggy and Lavs actually contributing at what might have been a high enough level to have really been noticeably better than the guys they replaced. As much as I have been on about Aviles this year, if I had to rank them I would say that Salty has been even more horrible at Catcher than Aviles has been at SS. The reason I think it so is because the Catcher handles the ball every pitch and Salty is not only bad at fielding the position, including the mechanics of receiving the ball but Salty also has that poor target problem and does not appear to call a game competently either. If Salty was just bad defensively but provided a decent target for the pitchers and called a decent game then Salty would not be nearly as costly to the Sox effort.

 

I think Ciriaco opened many peoples eyes regarding Aviles as Ciriaco is light years better at SS than Aviles and Ciriaco is about half way between Aviles and Iggy defensively at least from what I have seen.

[jung]

Aviled did not have great year as a defensive SS. He is and was a butcher at SS. Aviles costs the Sox buckets of DP's for one thing.

[Thunder]

It all starts with a whole new FO. New GM, new manager, as well as a new pitching coach. John Farrell is apparently in the running for manager, but GM and PC are out of the question. Cherington has to go. Go after a few FA's, but don't sign big long term contracts. Start with 4-5 years max, so you can extend it if need be.

 

Sox also need to evaluate their roster during Spring Training. If the middle infielders in the minors shine during Spring Training, call them up. Iglesias, Bogaerts, and Ciriaco would be nice permanent additions. Middlebrooks will be back and healthy, Lavarnway will be up with Salty, who knows about Papi with the whole contract thing, and Crawford might not be ready so the outfield looks like Ross, Ellsbury, Sweeney with Kalish on the bench, and Middlebrooks, Ciriaco, Pedroia, and Gonzo in the infield. If you ask me, it looks like a rebuilding time is ahead.

 

The biggest thing the Sox need to do is look at the starting pitching. Dice K's contract runs out next year, so they're stuck with him for one more year, Lackey will have to be judged in Spring Training, and meanwhile I feel confident about Lester since he has turned it around recently, Cook is inconsistent with the sinker, and Beckett needs to go. Get the young guys going. Doubront and Morales look strong enough, and maybe Miller will become a starter again. My ideal rotation is Buchholz, Lester, Doubront, Morales, Cook(?). The five spot would be determined in Spring Training. Lot of moves coming, I'm just anxious to see what happens, because this is a Red Sox forum. We're supposed to be fans for life and have an unconditional love for the Sox, like we do for our parents, spouses, kids, etc...

This is the future, but rebuilding might have to happen first, and there are easy ways to work through it. Build around franchise players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzo and Middlebrooks.

[Elktonnick]

Aviled did not have great year as a defensive SS. He is and was a butcher at SS. Aviles costs the Sox buckets of DP's for one thing.

 

The whole Aviles Bard Ciriaco Lavarnway issues makes me really wonder about Cherrington's ability to judge talent. BV and Cherries butted heads all year over talent. In virtually every case, Bard Ciriaco WMB etc, BV proved to be the better evaluator of talent. I believe Cherries's ego refused to allow him to accept the advice of someone more knowledgeable and experienced than he. I think that is the great untold story of this year that is Cherries undercutting his manager by not giving him the better talent he requested that was available in the organization.

[jung]

By the way, in any discussion of FO big 2012 mistakes it goes without saying that the biggest off season 2011-2012 mistake was not addressing the starting pitching and going into the season with so many question marks and in some cases outright obvious concerns.

 

At least in my case I am talking about things they might have done during the 2012 season relative to the farm system.

[DocHolliday]

It all starts with a whole new FO. New GM, new manager, as well as a new pitching coach. John Farrell is apparently in the running for manager, but GM and PC are out of the question. Cherington has to go. Go after a few FA's, but don't sign big long term contracts. Start with 4-5 years max, so you can extend it if need be.

 

Sox also need to evaluate their roster during Spring Training. If the middle infielders in the minors shine during Spring Training, call them up. Iglesias, Bogaerts, and Ciriaco would be nice permanent additions. Middlebrooks will be back and healthy, Lavarnway will be up with Salty, who knows about Papi with the whole contract thing, and Crawford might not be ready so the outfield looks like Ross, Ellsbury, Sweeney with Kalish on the bench, and Middlebrooks, Ciriaco, Pedroia, and Gonzo in the infield. If you ask me, it looks like a rebuilding time is ahead.

 

The biggest thing the Sox need to do is look at the starting pitching. Dice K's contract runs out next year, so they're stuck with him for one more year, Lackey will have to be judged in Spring Training, and meanwhile I feel confident about Lester since he has turned it around recently, Cook is inconsistent with the sinker, and Beckett needs to go. Get the young guys going. Doubront and Morales look strong enough, and maybe Miller will become a starter again. My ideal rotation is Buchholz, Lester, Doubront, Morales, Cook(?). The five spot would be determined in Spring Training. Lot of moves coming, I'm just anxious to see what happens, because this is a Red Sox forum. We're supposed to be fans for life and have an unconditional love for the Sox, like we do for our parents, spouses, kids, etc...

This is the future, but rebuilding might have to happen first, and there are easy ways to work through it. Build around franchise players like Ellsbury, Pedroia, Gonzo and Middlebrooks.

 

Dice K's contract should be up at the end of this season, if I'm not mistaken. That will be roughly $10 M coming off the books, according to Cot's. Some pitchers, Buchholz and Lester will see pay increases. A trade of Beckett can free up around $5 to $7 M, assuming we pay $10 - $12 M next year for him to play somewhere else. That's around $10 M after you factor in the increases in pay to other pitchers.

[jung]

The whole Aviles Bard Ciriaco Lavarnway issues makes me really wonder about Cherrington's ability to judge talent. BV and Cherries butted heads all year over talent. In virtually every case, Bard Ciriaco WMB etc, BV proved to be the better evaluator of talent. I believe Cherries's ego refused to allow him to accept the advice of someone more knowledgeable and experienced than he. I think that is the great untold story of this year that is Cherries undercutting his manager by not giving him the better talent he requested that was available in the organization.

 

I don't think V suddenly went blind part way through his Sox experience either. I think V simply decided not to fight these issues out publicly. Remembering that Aviles was one of the players V jumped on early as well I just think V decided to play along. Suddenly we started to hear V saying things like Aviles defense prowess had surprised him. That comment came completely out of left field.

[RedSoxfanforlife305]

Thread makes me sad, here is to a long offseason.

[DocHolliday]

Thread makes me sad, here is to a long offseason.

 

In many ways, it feels like last offseason never ended. I wouldn't go so far to say that this is worse than a player's strike, but it feels very similar. We are coming up on a full year of pathetic monstrosity on a daily basis with this team. Things have simply never been the same with this team since they won a double header with Oakland at home before Hurricane Irene came.

 

My family and I were here for that series and I remember we were stuck in Kenmore Square all day Sunday because the city shut down. Nothing to do but bar hop and stay out of the rain. The T was shut down and none of the activities we had planned for that day were feasible to do. But I had absolutely no worries because we all were able to go to Fenway and see our beloved Sox. The rest of the season looked extremely promising and I remember asking myself not IF the Sox would make the playoffs, but if my wife and I would be able to see them play if they were matched against the Rangers in the 1st or 2nd round.

 

Nearly 365 days later, I am stunned to see how far this entire organization has fallen and how it has played itself out, literally, on a daily basis into the abyss they find themselves in today.

[Thunder]

Thread makes me sad, here is to a long offseason.

 

Ain't that the truth.

[NativeBostonian]

I have a question for you guys. Isn't Ellsbury still going to be undercontract for next season? I'm looking at the list of free angents and Ellsbury isn't one of them, this up and coming offseason. Why are there people saying we are going to lose him when he hits free agentsy next year? Is he up for arbitration?

[SoxFanForsyth]

I have a question for you guys. Isn't Ellsbury still going to be undercontract for next season? I'm looking at the list of free angents and Ellsbury isn't one of them, this up and coming offseason. Why are there people saying we are going to lose him when he hits free agentsy next year? Is he up for arbitration?

 

He becomes a FA in 2014. Next year is his final year under club control (this is his final offseason of arbitration).

 

Most people want to dish him because we likely can't afford him.

 

But after seeing him perform this year, I am starting to wonder if a 6 year, $15-18mm AAV will keep him in Boston. I keep hearing he'd love to stay if at all possible (from Cafardo).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox worked out a long term deal with Ellsbury this offseason at around 6/105.

[NativeBostonian]

He becomes a FA in 2014. Next year is his final year under club control (this is his final offseason of arbitration).

 

Most people want to dish him because we likely can't afford him.

 

But after seeing him perform this year, I am starting to wonder if a 6 year, $15-18mm AAV will keep him in Boston. I keep hearing he'd love to stay if at all possible (from Cafardo).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox worked out a long term deal with Ellsbury this offseason at around 6/105.

 

That's what I was thinking. If he had a year like the last, there is no doubt he would make a lot of money. But, he didn't. He was hurt for most of the season. Him looking like he is made of glass will cause him to lose money when that time comes.

[kapsis21]

I agree with most here that Aviles/Salty/Beckett could be gone come next year. but Beckett has this weird even odd years and i think we would be forced to see Beckett next year, same with Salty whose playing time might get cut down more and I would like to see him become backup catcher for us.

however Aviles needs to get traded somewhere, we should have shipped him to As when we had a chance.

 

the season is still alive even though chances are getting smaller and smaller every game.. still believing that someone can jolt this team ..

[Brennan]

I like the recent moves but what is a pitching coach to pitchers that have been in the pros for years? You think Beckett listens to ANY coach? Is he gonna pitch like an ace now?

 

Yeah McClure probably had to go but it doesn't really fix much (Salty anyone?) Other than that, Iggy coming up will be nice.

 

Want to see some heads roll in December. Beckett and Salty, I'm looking at you.

[jacksonianmarch]

He becomes a FA in 2014. Next year is his final year under club control (this is his final offseason of arbitration).

 

Most people want to dish him because we likely can't afford him.

 

But after seeing him perform this year, I am starting to wonder if a 6 year, $15-18mm AAV will keep him in Boston. I keep hearing he'd love to stay if at all possible (from Cafardo).

 

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sox worked out a long term deal with Ellsbury this offseason at around 6/105.

 

Boras will not let him sign coming off a down, injury plagued yr.

[DocHolliday]

Boras will not let him sign coming off a down, injury plagued yr.

 

If he really wants to stay here, as has been speculated by certain members of the media, he will try to work out a deal long term regardless of what Boras wants. From a different angle, he may not want to risk getting hurt in his contract year and then having to settle for a 1 year, 2010 Adrian Beltre type of deal to raise his value for securing a multi year deal the year after he's FA eligible. Like some of the other Sox players, he may prefer the LT security.

 

But it all comes back to what the player wants- which in most cases is to make the most $.

[a700hitter]

It's time.

 

I will say this, I am more excited about this offseason than I have been for any offseason in years. There have got to be some significant changes.

 

I tried to temper some of your enthusiasm at the start of the season so that the thud back to earth would not be too painful. I'll caution you again. Don't expect too much this off season if Bumbling Benny is at the helm. You are right to be concerned about his statements. The one good thing about the off season is that no matter how unrealistic we are about the team's chances in 2013, they will be undefeated until April..

[DocHolliday]

I tried to temper some of your enthusiasm at the start of the season so that the thud back to earth would not be too painful. I'll caution you again. Don't expect too much this off season if Bumbling Benny is at the helm. You are right to be concerned about his statements. The one good thing about the off season is that no matter how unrealistic we are about the team's chances in 2013, they will be undefeated until April..

 

My hope is that the calendar year from September 2011 - now will give them enough reason and courage to make the "bold" changes theyve always talked making. They must accept that this group can't get it done and make foundational changes- even if it means eating a lot of money. The majority of fans understand that is what has to happen. I doubt they will get near the amount of enthusiasm in March 2013 they received this year if they essentially do nothing to change the core of this current group.

 

Let's be honest - if they make changes we expect and hope for and the group they end up with can't make much progress on the field but genuinely tries their best and the off field drama is eliminated, most fans will call it a step in the right direction. I doubt anyone will say "if they kept it the way it was, things would have been better."

 

It's clear - this group needs to be renovated. Some core pieces should remain going forward and some should not.

[jung]

Well if you think about it Doc, the only Sox representative that has talked about "bold" moves has been LL. If anything the other Sox mouthpieces of late have talked about being cautious more than being bold. Occasionally one of them will spout something meaningless like, "we will make the moves we need to make if we see moves we can make" or some such blather.

 

Here at this board some of us have talked about the need to make bold moves because the situation called for it. There is no easy fix for the mess the are in and no quick fix either. They can make up a lotta' ground if they make a bold move but it will require that they consider some of the Red Sox favored sons as trade bait as there are few players the Sox have that would yield real help. While the team has played so poorly together, you would think it would be easier for us to see our way to a bold move, how poorly they have played seems not to register.