Looking To The Future

[DocHolliday]

Change in many aspects of this organization has been discussed throughout the forum and game threads. Whatever your beliefs are about this year's team and outcome, I think we can all agree that some degree of change is needed for this organization to regain the image it had in the not so distant past.

 

It has become blatantly obvious to some, and gradually more revealing to others, that this organization has lost its way over the last few years. The litany of issues on the baseball side seem to mirror the business side of the organization as well. What was once a feared and well respected organization that knew how to execute their unique strengths now appears to be an arrogant and clueless group collectively.

 

As committed fans of the Sox, what would you say has to change to get this organization as a whole back on the right track?

[example1]

I almost posted something like this last night. It is interesting to look into the future in an attempt to see what the Sox might be thinking about.

 

Going into 2013:

 

* The Sox have approximately $39m coming off the books.

* Most of that (63.85%) is from Ortiz and Matsuzaka. The other players are Aaron Cook, Bobby Jenks (already released), Vicente Padilla, Scott Podsednik, Cody Ross and Kelly Shoppach

* They have a big group of significant players who are going into their 2nd or 3rd arb years. Guys like Aceves, Saltalamacchia, Ellsbury, and Aviles should all be getting raises.

* The team will be aiming to get below the LT threshold by 2014.

 

Going into 2014:

* The team will be losing the following players (assuming no contracts): Matt Albers, Jacoby Ellsbury, Rich Hill, Nick Punto, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney

* That group is making $15.6m in 2012, probably considerably more as 5 of them will be in Arb3 year.

 

Things really get interesting after 2014:

 

* After the 2014 Season the following player's contracts expire:

 

Aceves, Alfredo

Aviles, Mike

Bailey, Andrew

Beckett, Josh

Lackey, John

Lester, Jon

Miller, Andrew

Morales, Franklin

 

* not even counting arbitration that's at least $54m coming off the books. Beckett and Lackey will account for $32.95m of it, but Lester will also be making 13m in 2014.

* Beckett, Lackey and Lester will all be gone. By then, the Sox will essentially have needed to turn over the top of its rotation.

 

What should the 2013 team look like?

 

Here's a possible roster, based on attempting to reduce total payroll and clearing space for rookies who are ready to produce at the MLB level:

 

C: Saltalamacchia

1B: Gonzalez

2B: Pedroia

3B: Middlebrooks

SS: Aviles

LF: Crawford

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Kalish

DH: Lavarnway

 

Seems pretty logical. Ortiz can see if he can get more money elsewhere, or he can come back for a reasonable amount.

 

The bigger point, is that the Sox probably have more flexibility to trade some of their prospects than many think they do, particularly so they can revamp their starting pitching.

 

Here's that list again, with players who are either stuck here or who won't be replaced. Prospects who sit behind them might be eligible for trade:

 

C: Saltalamacchia

1B: Gonzalez

2B: Pedroia

3B: Middlebrooks

SS: Aviles

LF: Crawford

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Kalish

DH: Lavarnway

 

Offensively, at least, it is safe to say that the Sox have a lot of their positions covered for quite awhile.

 

Let's look at the positions who are likely to have some turnover during the next couple of years, and how the Sox stack up with prospects:

 

Saltalamacchia: He's available after 2013, but the Sox will probably work to resign him if he keeps hitting like he has been. A few years ago the Sox made a concerted effort at stacking up on catching prospects, but none of them (aside from Lavarnway) panned out. Few options here, especially with Lavarnway's potential at the DH spot and his questionable defense.

 

Aviles: If anyone is wondering why the Sox keep going after shortstops, perhaps its because they have an obvious hole coming up here when Aviles becomes a FA after 2014. Iglesias, Bogaerts, Marrero and Lin will all compete for that spot, and I suspect one of them will be able to stick.

 

Ellsbury: Jackie Bradley Jr will be the CF after 2013. Jackie Bradley could potentially be the CF after 2012. Ellsbury might be the best opportunity the Sox have to bring back some good prospects or another legitimate SP. Bradley is the real deal and his defense is major league ready already.

 

 

Aside from the prospects mentioned here, I would think that virtually any offensive prospect could be available in a trade for the right pieces. Brentz, Swihart, Cecchini, Jacobs, Coyle, etc., could all be dealt and represent high-upside prospects that would be attractive to other teams.

 

I've read people saying that the Sox should stand pat and save their prospects. Whereas I usually agree, I think the list above shows that many of these positions are blocked, some of them for quite awhile. Given that, I suspect the Sox can be more aggressive than they might otherwise be to make some fairly significant changes to the team.

 

 

I focused specifically on offense here because the Sox have so much money invested in their SP right now that guys like Beckett, Lester, Buchholz and probably Lackey will all be pitching for the club moving forward. Not a lot to be changed there.

 

A direction the Sox will probably look to go is to bolster the young pitching they have in the system. Zach Stewart might be the start of that kind of movement, but the goal would be to have as many good SP prospects as possible when 2014 comes around. Right now the only reasonable SP options who might be ready by then are Matt Barnes and, possibly Drake Britton.

 

Anyway, I realize this is a fairly directionless post, but I like the thread and am interested to see what others think about the future direction of the club, given their current composition. If you're in the "BLOW IT UP" crowd, this is your place to talk about what that might look like by, say 2013 or 2014.

[SoxSport]

I think they need a management change. The front office has to go. It is still Theo Epstein.

Still the emphasis on offense. Not enough emphasis on speed, defense, pitching and smallball(=teamplay). Somewhere along the line, they stopped playing as a team, and more like individuals. Maybe the last few years. That's really a management problem. Not emphasizing the right things. Letting the opposition go wild stealing bases is a tipoff. Improper handling of pitching is another.

 

I don't think the present management is capable of changing anything, with their apparent fixed attitudes.

The best thing that can happen is Henry sells the team. That's a guarantee that management heads will role. I don't think the current management bunch has the judgement to turn the team around. They have proven that so far this year. They haven't been helped by Henry turning the money off, but almost everything they've done has turned into a pumpkin.

[SemperFi Sox]

I almost posted something like this last night. It is interesting to look into the future in an attempt to see what the Sox might be thinking about.

 

Going into 2013:

 

* The Sox have approximately $39m coming off the books.

* Most of that (63.85%) is from Ortiz and Matsuzaka. The other players are Aaron Cook, Bobby Jenks (already released), Vicente Padilla, Scott Podsednik, Cody Ross and Kelly Shoppach

* They have a big group of significant players who are going into their 2nd or 3rd arb years. Guys like Aceves, Saltalamacchia, Ellsbury, and Aviles should all be getting raises.

* The team will be aiming to get below the LT threshold by 2014.

 

Going into 2014:

* The team will be losing the following players (assuming no contracts): Matt Albers, Jacoby Ellsbury, Rich Hill, Nick Punto, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney

* That group is making $15.6m in 2012, probably considerably more as 5 of them will be in Arb3 year.

 

Things really get interesting after 2014:

 

* After the 2014 Season the following player's contracts expire:

 

Aceves, Alfredo

Aviles, Mike

Bailey, Andrew

Beckett, Josh

Lackey, John

Lester, Jon

Miller, Andrew

Morales, Franklin

 

* not even counting arbitration that's at least $54m coming off the books. Beckett and Lackey will account for $32.95m of it, but Lester will also be making 13m in 2014.

* Beckett, Lackey and Lester will all be gone. By then, the Sox will essentially have needed to turn over the top of its rotation.

 

What should the 2013 team look like?

 

Here's a possible roster, based on attempting to reduce total payroll and clearing space for rookies who are ready to produce at the MLB level:

 

C: Saltalamacchia

1B: Gonzalez

2B: Pedroia

3B: Middlebrooks

SS: Aviles

LF: Crawford

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Kalish

DH: Lavarnway

 

Seems pretty logical. Ortiz can see if he can get more money elsewhere, or he can come back for a reasonable amount.

 

The bigger point, is that the Sox probably have more flexibility to trade some of their prospects than many think they do, particularly so they can revamp their starting pitching.

 

Here's that list again, with players who are either stuck here or who won't be replaced. Prospects who sit behind them might be eligible for trade:

 

C: Saltalamacchia

1B: Gonzalez

2B: Pedroia

3B: Middlebrooks

SS: Aviles

LF: Crawford

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Kalish

DH: Lavarnway

 

Offensively, at least, it is safe to say that the Sox have a lot of their positions covered for quite awhile.

 

Let's look at the positions who are likely to have some turnover during the next couple of years, and how the Sox stack up with prospects:

 

Saltalamacchia: He's available after 2013, but the Sox will probably work to resign him if he keeps hitting like he has been. A few years ago the Sox made a concerted effort at stacking up on catching prospects, but none of them (aside from Lavarnway) panned out. Few options here, especially with Lavarnway's potential at the DH spot and his questionable defense.

 

Aviles: If anyone is wondering why the Sox keep going after shortstops, perhaps its because they have an obvious hole coming up here when Aviles becomes a FA after 2014. Iglesias, Bogaerts, Marrero and Lin will all compete for that spot, and I suspect one of them will be able to stick.

 

Ellsbury: Jackie Bradley Jr will be the CF after 2013. Jackie Bradley could potentially be the CF after 2012. Ellsbury might be the best opportunity the Sox have to bring back some good prospects or another legitimate SP. Bradley is the real deal and his defense is major league ready already.

 

 

Aside from the prospects mentioned here, I would think that virtually any offensive prospect could be available in a trade for the right pieces. Brentz, Swihart, Cecchini, Jacobs, Coyle, etc., could all be dealt and represent high-upside prospects that would be attractive to other teams.

 

I've read people saying that the Sox should stand pat and save their prospects. Whereas I usually agree, I think the list above shows that many of these positions are blocked, some of them for quite awhile. Given that, I suspect the Sox can be more aggressive than they might otherwise be to make some fairly significant changes to the team.

 

 

I focused specifically on offense here because the Sox have so much money invested in their SP right now that guys like Beckett, Lester, Buchholz and probably Lackey will all be pitching for the club moving forward. Not a lot to be changed there.

 

A direction the Sox will probably look to go is to bolster the young pitching they have in the system. Zach Stewart might be the start of that kind of movement, but the goal would be to have as many good SP prospects as possible when 2014 comes around. Right now the only reasonable SP options who might be ready by then are Matt Barnes and, possibly Drake Britton.

 

Anyway, I realize this is a fairly directionless post, but I like the thread and am interested to see what others think about the future direction of the club, given their current composition. If you're in the "BLOW IT UP" crowd, this is your place to talk about what that might look like by, say 2013 or 2014.

 

Nice write up example.

[example1]

I think they need a management change. The front office has to go. It is still Theo Epstein.

Still the emphasis on offense. Not enough emphasis on speed, defense, pitching and smallball(=teamplay). Somewhere along the line, they stopped playing as a team, and more like individuals. Maybe the last few years. That's really a management problem. Not emphasizing the right things. Letting the opposition go wild stealing bases is a tipoff. Improper handling of pitching is another.

 

I don't think the present management is capable of changing anything, with their apparent fixed attitudes.

The best thing that can happen is Henry sells the team. That's a guarantee that management heads will role. I don't think the current management bunch has the judgement to turn the team around. They have proven that so far this year. They haven't been helped by Henry turning the money off, but almost everything they've done has turned into a pumpkin.

 

It's interesting that you think this. I don't see how it is true. Where is their lack of emphasis on defense? Obviously the right side of the infield is defense heavy. Crawford and Ellsbury are both very good defenders. Ross holds his own and Sweeney was acquired partially because he plays an above average RF. In the other positions (SS, C, 3B ) it is clear that they are tolerating the trade off between defense and offense, but its not like there are defensive wizards who could fill in adequately. Would you rather have Shoppach and Punto starting instead of Salty and Aviles? The addition of Lillibridge was almost entirely due to his defense and his speed.

 

Speaking of speed, criticizing them for not having enough speed when Ellsbury and Crawford have been out seems a bit unfair. When healthy, Kalish, Ellsbury, Crawford, Aviles, Middlebrooks and Pedroia will have at least decent speed, and Ross has pretty good speed as well. Again, they just acquired Lillibridge for his speed too.

 

Then there's the comment that there's not enough emphasis on pitching. Really? They rebuilt the entire bullpen and I'd be hard pressed to say they did a bad job, especially with Bailey and Bard out.

 

As for the rotation, when you have a bloated payroll and a looming luxury tax penalty in two seasons, and you have 5 SP under payroll for significant money (Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Matsuzaka) you simply can't go and replace pitchers very easily. You certainly can't get rid of all the bad ones and replace them with good ones. It's just not how that works. I can't think of a single example of a team that has replaced their rotation like that. Can you?

[FredLynn]

I almost posted something like this last night. It is interesting to look into the future in an attempt to see what the Sox might be thinking about.

 

Going into 2013:

 

* The Sox have approximately $39m coming off the books.

* Most of that (63.85%) is from Ortiz and Matsuzaka. The other players are Aaron Cook, Bobby Jenks (already released), Vicente Padilla, Scott Podsednik, Cody Ross and Kelly Shoppach

* They have a big group of significant players who are going into their 2nd or 3rd arb years. Guys like Aceves, Saltalamacchia, Ellsbury, and Aviles should all be getting raises.

* The team will be aiming to get below the LT threshold by 2014.

 

Going into 2014:

* The team will be losing the following players (assuming no contracts): Matt Albers, Jacoby Ellsbury, Rich Hill, Nick Punto, Jarrod Saltalamacchia, Ryan Sweeney

* That group is making $15.6m in 2012, probably considerably more as 5 of them will be in Arb3 year.

 

Things really get interesting after 2014:

 

* After the 2014 Season the following player's contracts expire:

 

Aceves, Alfredo

Aviles, Mike

Bailey, Andrew

Beckett, Josh

Lackey, John

Lester, Jon

Miller, Andrew

Morales, Franklin

 

* not even counting arbitration that's at least $54m coming off the books. Beckett and Lackey will account for $32.95m of it, but Lester will also be making 13m in 2014.

* Beckett, Lackey and Lester will all be gone. By then, the Sox will essentially have needed to turn over the top of its rotation.

 

What should the 2013 team look like?

 

Here's a possible roster, based on attempting to reduce total payroll and clearing space for rookies who are ready to produce at the MLB level:

 

C: Saltalamacchia

1B: Gonzalez

2B: Pedroia

3B: Middlebrooks

SS: Aviles

LF: Crawford

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Kalish

DH: Lavarnway

 

Seems pretty logical. Ortiz can see if he can get more money elsewhere, or he can come back for a reasonable amount.

 

The bigger point, is that the Sox probably have more flexibility to trade some of their prospects than many think they do, particularly so they can revamp their starting pitching.

 

Here's that list again, with players who are either stuck here or who won't be replaced. Prospects who sit behind them might be eligible for trade:

 

C: Saltalamacchia

1B: Gonzalez

2B: Pedroia

3B: Middlebrooks

SS: Aviles

LF: Crawford

CF: Ellsbury

RF: Kalish

DH: Lavarnway

 

Offensively, at least, it is safe to say that the Sox have a lot of their positions covered for quite awhile.

 

Let's look at the positions who are likely to have some turnover during the next couple of years, and how the Sox stack up with prospects:

 

Saltalamacchia: He's available after 2013, but the Sox will probably work to resign him if he keeps hitting like he has been. A few years ago the Sox made a concerted effort at stacking up on catching prospects, but none of them (aside from Lavarnway) panned out. Few options here, especially with Lavarnway's potential at the DH spot and his questionable defense.

 

Aviles: If anyone is wondering why the Sox keep going after shortstops, perhaps its because they have an obvious hole coming up here when Aviles becomes a FA after 2014. Iglesias, Bogaerts, Marrero and Lin will all compete for that spot, and I suspect one of them will be able to stick.

 

Ellsbury: Jackie Bradley Jr will be the CF after 2013. Jackie Bradley could potentially be the CF after 2012. Ellsbury might be the best opportunity the Sox have to bring back some good prospects or another legitimate SP. Bradley is the real deal and his defense is major league ready already.

 

 

Aside from the prospects mentioned here, I would think that virtually any offensive prospect could be available in a trade for the right pieces. Brentz, Swihart, Cecchini, Jacobs, Coyle, etc., could all be dealt and represent high-upside prospects that would be attractive to other teams.

 

I've read people saying that the Sox should stand pat and save their prospects. Whereas I usually agree, I think the list above shows that many of these positions are blocked, some of them for quite awhile. Given that, I suspect the Sox can be more aggressive than they might otherwise be to make some fairly significant changes to the team.

 

 

I focused specifically on offense here because the Sox have so much money invested in their SP right now that guys like Beckett, Lester, Buchholz and probably Lackey will all be pitching for the club moving forward. Not a lot to be changed there.

 

A direction the Sox will probably look to go is to bolster the young pitching they have in the system. Zach Stewart might be the start of that kind of movement, but the goal would be to have as many good SP prospects as possible when 2014 comes around. Right now the only reasonable SP options who might be ready by then are Matt Barnes and, possibly Drake Britton.

 

Anyway, I realize this is a fairly directionless post, but I like the thread and am interested to see what others think about the future direction of the club, given their current composition. If you're in the "BLOW IT UP" crowd, this is your place to talk about what that might look like by, say 2013 or 2014.

 

Very well thought out post E1. Just read it once and will try to look at it more critically later. I noticed, as you said here, that you focused on the offense. I believe that our FO must shift its focus to good SP prospects. You mentioned two, Barnes and Britton. What about Raynaudo? He could make it to the majors too. Other than those three I don't see much in our minor league system to help us, and that means that we are going to have to trade for them using either major league players like Ellsbury or some of the blocked minor league players. It also assumes that our FO is capable of judging which SP prospects to acquire, and frankly, I do not think that the current administration is capable of doing that. They are going to have to be fired first, before the rebuilding can begin.

Finally, I notice that we are really looking at the 2015 season before the detritus from Theo Epstein's bad contracts are fully gone. Thats two more years like this year. Pretty demoralizing, isn't it.

[SemperFi Sox]

Looks like a bright future until the injury bug f***s us over as usual.

[example1]

Very well thought out post E1. Just read it once and will try to look at it more critically later. I noticed' date=' as you said here, that you focused on the offense. I believe that our FO must shift its focus to good SP prospects. You mentioned two, Barnes and Britton. What about Raynaudo?[/quote']

 

He's there too, but he's been disappointing. Even Britton has been disappointing, but he's coming along well this season.

 

Other than those three I don't see much in our minor league system to help us, and that means that we are going to have to trade for them using either major league players like Ellsbury or some of the blocked minor league players.

 

They are definitely heavier on offense right now. They did draft a few pitchers who will probably help, but they aren't bursting at the seams with MLB ready talent. I think you're right about having to trade for them. Zack Stewart was possibly the beginning of that trend.

 

It also assumes that our FO is capable of judging which SP prospects to acquire, and frankly, I do not think that the current administration is capable of doing that. They are going to have to be fired first, before the rebuilding can begin.

 

It's an interesting point: the FO has been (I would say) very good at judging draftable talent. We are seeing the results of that (again) this year. They have been horrible with FA talent and, I would say, pretty good with trades. What does trading for pitching prospects count as? It's not quite draftable talent, but it's not quite a 'trade' in the traditional sense. It's not FA acquisition either. I think they would be capable of adding some good arms, but we can disagree there.

 

Finally, I notice that we are really looking at the 2015 season before the detritus from Theo Epstein's bad contracts are fully gone. Thats two more years like this year. Pretty demoralizing, isn't it.

 

I'm still of the belief that this team is much better than they have been. I know we disagree there. With health they should at least be a playoff contender for the next few seasons, and with the right acquisition here or there that could turn into something special. All is not lost, as far as I'm concerned. It's just that after 2014, if the Sox hold pat, nearly all of the impediments to a full-retooling will be out of the way.

 

The question is, who would they get to replace them? Assuming they can't rebuild the entire rotation from prospects, who will be a FA going into 2015 who could anchor the rotation?

[jung]

As for the rotation, when you have a bloated payroll and a looming luxury tax penalty in two seasons, and you have 5 SP under payroll for significant money (Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Matsuzaka) you simply can't go and replace pitchers very easily. You certainly can't get rid of all the bad ones and replace them with good ones. It's just not how that works. I can't think of a single example of a team that has replaced their rotation like that. Can you?

 

Here I think you have finally hit on the problem with most of the perspectives we read on this board with regard to the various components of the team and which is the weakest link responsible for most of the demise of this team. You are correct...there are no easy solutions to the rotation. That does not unfortunately rewrite the history of baseball and suddenly make it possible to simply hit more and expect to win. If you don't get timely hitting it does not matter that you hit more and if you do not control the other team's offense (starting pitching) even timely hitting is sitting in the back seat.

 

We don't want to deal with the issue of the starting pitching because there are no quick fixes to the starting pitching and quick fixes are all we are really interested in talking about.

 

The problem with trying to avoid the real problem and just do more of the things we do reasonably well is that it forces the team to expend effort and resource outside of the area where they need to spend it.

 

As for defense and the issues at positions like SS and Catcher they don't deserve to get a pass there. They sought these players out! They went out and got them to play those positions purposefully putting a utility infielder at SS, a guy who's hitting numbers are now plummeting back to earth, a guy that butchers SS on a daily basis...that is another issue that we need to stop sticking our heads in the sand about...he is a butcher at SS....a guy who should be playing that position on occasion, not everyday.

[Palodios]

Its not like there are defensive wizards who could fill in adequately. Would you rather have Shoppach and Punto starting instead of Salty and Aviles?

 

Iglesias was activated from the DL on June 26th. Currently, the middle infield consists of Aviles, Gomez, and Punto.

 

Iggy's bat is not going to suddenly get better in the minors. He's going to be a poor offensive player in the future. But is it that much worse than Aviles/Gomez/Punto that we have to see bad defense from the middle infield too?

[jung]

Iglesias was activated from the DL on June 26th. Currently, the middle infield consists of Aviles, Gomez, and Punto.

 

Aviles is not going to just turn this around either. It is clear that ML pitchers and scouts have got a book on him now....they know how to get him out and they are just burying him. He will likely be able to work this out over time so that it is not as big a problem for him as it is now but as of now his hitting issues are very similar to Crawford's of last year....as in not something likely to get better during the season. Aviles in my view is in worse shape from RH pitchers than Crawford was from LH hitters at any time last year. Any pitcher that can find that weak spot that Aviles has owns Aviles at this point and the only hits he is going to get are from guys that can't hit that spot.

 

So for my money it is time to see Iggy especially in any games that based on the starting pitching matchups and general team match ups looks like tight low scoring games.

[example1]

I would be more than comfortable with Iglesias playing at SS. His bat won't play but there have been a few plays lately that I told myself "Iglesias would have made that play."

 

So, should the Sox look to start bringing up the remaining youngsters Iglesias and Lavarnway? Trade Shoppach?

[jung]

I want to see players up that provide V with some lineup and game management flexibility, guys that give V and the Sox a better shot in those games that are not played in the optimal fashion for a Sox team. Lavs does not do that at this point so I would likely say no to Lavs.

[SemperFi Sox]

We don't have a chance with this rotation, bring Iggy and some of the other kids up. Trade some starters and really stock our farm system.

[Rdsxmbnt]

This Red Sox team is really frustrating to watch because there is literally so much talent yet everything that could go wrong has.

 

I feel like if this lineup was healthy and performing that they could put up numbers with the 03,04,07 teams. It's baffling that Gonzalez could go from the best 1B in baseball to what he is this season and in the prime of his career no less after consistently mashing the ball his entire career. Pedroia also has been hit with injuries and is a full .100 OPS points below his normal production over a 3 year period. Obviously our 30/30 offensive and defensive superstar is out, and as is Crawford who before joining the Red Sox was arguably a top 10 player in baseball over the 08-10 period (by WAR).

 

They have great production at C, 3B, and the other corner OF with Nava/Ross. Again with so many guys out or completely uncharacteristically underperforming, it's hard to point fingers as to what went wrong. Can't really blame Cherrington because all the pieces are there for this to be a historic offense.

 

Then the bullpen becomes good and the SP shits the bed. Again Lester/Beckett/Buchholz put up 3.47/2.89/3.48 ERAs last season and now are all over or well over 4.25. How can you possibly plan for that or have a backup plan for that?

 

Again all these guys have consistently year in and year out produced and everyone fell apart this season. This team is so good on paper and had these injuries or performance issues happened to basically any other team in baseball they would be finished. The fact that they are treading water and still alive is a tribute to the depth.

 

I still believe that if the guys get healthy and the key guys start performing that this team could go to the top. Any trades aren't gonna fix it, it's really all on the players at this point.

[a700hitter]

This Red Sox team is really frustrating to watch because there is literally so much talent yet everything that could go wrong has.

 

I feel like if this lineup was healthy and performing that they could put up numbers with the 03,04,07 teams. It's baffling that Gonzalez could go from the best 1B in baseball to what he is this season and in the prime of his career no less after consistently mashing the ball his entire career. Pedroia also has been hit with injuries and is a full .100 OPS points below his normal production over a 3 year period. Obviously our 30/30 offensive and defensive superstar is out, and as is Crawford who before joining the Red Sox was arguably a top 10 player in baseball over the 08-10 period (by WAR).

 

They have great production at C, 3B, and the other corner OF with Nava/Ross. Again with so many guys out or completely uncharacteristically underperforming, it's hard to point fingers as to what went wrong. Can't really blame Cherrington because all the pieces are there for this to be a historic offense.

 

Then the bullpen becomes good and the SP shits the bed. Again Lester/Beckett/Buchholz put up 3.47/2.89/3.48 ERAs last season and now are all over or well over 4.25. How can you possibly plan for that or have a backup plan for that?

 

Again all these guys have consistently year in and year out produced and everyone fell apart this season. This team is so good on paper and had these injuries or performance issues happened to basically any other team in baseball they would be finished. The fact that they are treading water and still alive is a tribute to the depth.

 

I still believe that if the guys get healthy and the key guys start performing that this team could go to the top. Any trades aren't gonna fix it, it's really all on the players at this point.

No, everything has not gone wrong. The team was built with thin suspect starting pitching. Two rookies in the starting rotation in the AL East is a recipe for disaster. Doubs has been okay but Bard flamed out spectacularly and our top 3 have been tremendously over rated. They have each performed like #5 starters. The bullpen lost it's biggest assets when it lost the back end of the pen that had been one of the best in baseball. Bard and Papelbon had shortened games to 7 innings over the last 3 seasons. Yes our bullpen has been better than our starters, but they have been sucking at nailing down games. Aceves already has 4 lblown saves and 6 losses. This team could have won only if everything went right. More than a few things have gone wrong so they are failing more quiclkly and more spectacularly than anyone had predicted. This team had little room for error when the season started.

[Brennan]

No' date=' everything has not gone wrong. The team was built with thin suspect starting pitching. Two rookies in the starting rotation in the AL East is a recipe for disaster. Doubs has been okay but Bard flamed out spectacularly and our top 3 have been tremendously over rated. They have each performed like #5 starters. The bullpen lost it's biggest assets when it lost the back end of the pen that had been one of the best in baseball. Bard and Papelbon had shortened games to 7 innings over the last 3 seasons. Yes our bullpen has been better than our starters, but they have been sucking at nailing down games. Aceves already has 4 lblown saves and 6 losses. This team could have won only if everything went right. More than a few things have gone wrong so they are failing more quiclkly and more spectacularly than anyone had predicted. This team had little room for error when the season started.[/quote']

 

 

 

Well said as usual. We need real baseball people in the FO to go along with the payroll.

[SemperFi Sox]

Gonzalez needs to find his f***ing power or he can leave.

[redsoxbeatz]

Gonzalez needs to find his f***ing power or he can leave.

 

Where's he going to go?

 

Him and CC planned to rob us it was conspiracy. It'll probably be a book one day

[SoxSport]

It's interesting that you think this. I don't see how it is true. Where is their lack of emphasis on defense? Obviously the right side of the infield is defense heavy. Crawford and Ellsbury are both very good defenders. Ross holds his own and Sweeney was acquired partially because he plays an above average RF. In the other positions (SS, C, 3B ) it is clear that they are tolerating the trade off between defense and offense, but its not like there are defensive wizards who could fill in adequately. Would you rather have Shoppach and Punto starting instead of Salty and Aviles? The addition of Lillibridge was almost entirely due to his defense and his speed.

 

Speaking of speed, criticizing them for not having enough speed when Ellsbury and Crawford have been out seems a bit unfair. When healthy, Kalish, Ellsbury, Crawford, Aviles, Middlebrooks and Pedroia will have at least decent speed, and Ross has pretty good speed as well. Again, they just acquired Lillibridge for his speed too.

 

Then there's the comment that there's not enough emphasis on pitching. Really? They rebuilt the entire bullpen and I'd be hard pressed to say they did a bad job, especially with Bailey and Bard out.

 

As for the rotation, when you have a bloated payroll and a looming luxury tax penalty in two seasons, and you have 5 SP under payroll for significant money (Beckett, Lester, Buchholz, Lackey, Matsuzaka) you simply can't go and replace pitchers very easily. You certainly can't get rid of all the bad ones and replace them with good ones. It's just not how that works. I can't think of a single example of a team that has replaced their rotation like that. Can you?

 

SS was a classic example of not placing defense over offense. Keeping Iglesias in limbo.

Using a retread at SS who provides only adequate defense and is a mediocre hitter in terms of outs made. Another example is their lack of using speed--and allowing other teams to beat them with speed tha past few years.

Finally, their lack of pitching in their farm system. They've relied on free agents and retreads.

 

Having Bard and Pap in the back end of the BP one year and nobody the next for half a season is pretty startling. Aceves is a not so perfect fill-in. Setup has been a dogs breakfast.

Why Bard didn't move to closer when Bailey went down tells me the front office is pretty fixed in their ways. Obstinate might be a better word.

 

The inconsistency of the top 3 in their rotation and the frequency of their starting pitchers s***ing the bed early are warning flags the pitching isn't being managed right. V didn't hire the pitching coach or the bench coach. That's another flag that this team has problems which go above the players. The media has been alluding to this for awhile. Olney, Cafardo and maybe others.

 

One more thing: I don't think this management places much priority on winning. That's the impression I got two years ago, and is still present. They let Ells and CC fester in the minors for weeks while CC keeps getting hurt. Playing more than a couple games in AAA for those guys is pretty ridiculous. They need some innings at the ML level. And the team obviously needs them. I made note the Phillies brought Howard back early-last night--because they need him. It's clear there was no such feeling of URGENCY on the part of the RS management for the Yankees series--with the proper consequences so far.

[FredLynn]

I would be more than comfortable with Iglesias playing at SS. His bat won't play but there have been a few plays lately that I told myself "Iglesias would have made that play."

 

So, should the Sox look to start bringing up the remaining youngsters Iglesias and Lavarnway? Trade Shoppach?

 

Here are some other trades to consider:

 

Seattle is in need of offense. Wonder if they would be interested in an Ellsbury for Taijuan Walker (ranked #20 among ML prospects, RHP) and Danny Hultzen (LHP, ranked #21). We could throw in Punto to make it more tempting. Also, Jon Lester is from the Seattle area. Maybe we could send him out there for some of the Mariners' pitching prospects. Nava could also be part of the deal.

[redsoxfan3]

Here are some other trades to consider:

 

Seattle is in need of offense. Wonder if they would be interested in an Ellsbury for Taijuan Walker (ranked #20 among ML prospects, RHP) and Danny Hultzen (LHP, ranked #21). We could throw in Punto to make it more tempting. Also, Jon Lester is from the Seattle area. Maybe we could send him out there for some of the Mariners' pitching prospects. Nava could also be part of the deal.

 

Lester, Ellsbury, Gomez, Nava, Punto, and prospect for King Felix, Walker, and Hultzen? haha, I wish.

[mvp 78]

Unfortunately, there will not be substantial change until LL is gone. He's this organization's anchor. He's not going away until JH sells though.

[example1]

Here are some other trades to consider:

 

Seattle is in need of offense. Wonder if they would be interested in an Ellsbury for Taijuan Walker (ranked #20 among ML prospects, RHP) and Danny Hultzen (LHP, ranked #21). We could throw in Punto to make it more tempting. Also, Jon Lester is from the Seattle area. Maybe we could send him out there for some of the Mariners' pitching prospects. Nava could also be part of the deal.

 

Maybe Ellsbury for one of those pitchers, not both though. Seattle isn't totally stupid.

[Palodios]

Maybe Ellsbury for one of those pitchers' date=' not both though. Seattle isn't totally stupid.[/quote']

 

Seattle isn't the best trade target for this team anyway. If the Montero trade says anything, it tells me that their plan is 3-5 years down the line. Trading for a guy that will be off your team in 1.5 years doesn't make much sense for them.

 

I think the team that makes the most sense is the Dodgers. Big market team, who can afford to attempt to extend him, primed to make a big run in the playoffs but lacking a lot of pop. Their farm system is very pitching heavy... and maybe if we're lucky we can grab Fedex back in the deal.

[FredLynn]

Seattle isn't the best trade target for this team anyway. If the Montero trade says anything, it tells me that their plan is 3-5 years down the line. Trading for a guy that will be off your team in 1.5 years doesn't make much sense for them.

 

I think the team that makes the most sense is the Dodgers. Big market team, who can afford to attempt to extend him, primed to make a big run in the playoffs but lacking a lot of pop. Their farm system is very pitching heavy... and maybe if we're lucky we can grab Fedex back in the deal.

 

The Dodgers' top pitching prospect is Zach Lee at #62. Not sure if I would give up Ellsbury for someone that low in the rankings. Haven't seen Lee though.

The point is that its time to trade some of our established players for some good pitching prospects. Very few players are on my do-not-trade list. There is no reason to wait. The trade deadline is July 31. Time for our FO to begin the rebuilding process.

[Palodios]

The Dodgers' top pitching prospect is Zach Lee at #62. Not sure if I would give up Ellsbury for someone that low in the rankings. Haven't seen Lee though.

The point is that its time to trade some of our established players for some good pitching prospects. Very few players are on my do-not-trade list. There is no reason to wait. The trade deadline is July 31. Time for our FO to begin the rebuilding process.

 

I saw him ranked midseason at #49. Throw in one or two others quality prospects, and that's about right, considering Elsbury is injured and essentially a one year rental. Best case scenario you get two top 100 prospects for him, but none of them are going to be much better than Lee-- those are the guys you save for your franchise's future.

[DocHolliday]

I saw him ranked midseason at #49. Throw in one or two others quality prospects' date=' and that's about right, considering Elsbury is injured and essentially a one year rental. Best case scenario you get two top 100 prospects for him, but none of them are going to be much better than Lee-- those are the guys you save for your franchise's future.[/quote']

 

Problem is the dodgers have an even better CF in Matt Kemp already locked up in a long term deal. Why would they want to add Ellsbury, who has an injury history that began when he moved to the corner outfield?

[Rdsxmbnt]

I saw him ranked midseason at #49. Throw in one or two others quality prospects' date=' and that's about right, considering Elsbury is injured and essentially a one year rental. Best case scenario you get two top 100 prospects for him, but none of them are going to be much better than Lee-- those are the guys you save for your franchise's future.[/quote']

 

If Ellsbury comes back and keeps doing what he did last year I don't see why he can't net us the type of package that SD got for Gonzalez (IE a top 30 SP prospect, top 50 1B prospect and high upside guy in Fuentes).

[DocHolliday]

No matter how this season ends, this organization will have a serious mess to clean up. A good place to start would be to stop trying to be the New York Yankees Lite by fixing the problem with an expensive band aid type of free agent. Despite the names that could be out there, this organization has been consistent with finding the biggest bust/worst fit for the team. Given their track record, they should avoid the upper free agent market like the plague.