Absurd reactionary thread #5,761

[FredLynn]

Tonite is the night the Sox effectively ended their quest for a ring IMO. There is no way a team like this will, should, or deserves to make it into the playoffs. Sloppy baseball is being played by the Sox every night, and the pitching woes have been known but not addressed in three years. Logical discussion should now be directed towards how to make a run in a year or two. This season is over in terms of a realistic quest for a ring. IMO its time to move forward. With good planning we could once again be a factor in 2013 or 2014.

[redsoxbeatz]

In before everyone flames your for being a Negative Nancy.

 

Smoke a bowl, man. Chill out! It's not even the ASB.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Plus 1 for "smoke a bowl"

 

And it's also utterly ridiculous for 1 game ( out of 162 ) to change your perception about a team going from "winning a ring " to missing the playoffs

[FredLynn]

In before everyone flames your for being a Negative Nancy.

 

Smoke a bowl, man. Chill out! It's not even the ASB.

 

I admit that I am pretty disgusted with this team, but the truth is that I don't see us having a chance to win a ring this year at all. Is that not the goal-a ring? So if we are not getting a ring then the next discussion should be what we ought to do to become competitive to make sure we compete for one ASAP. I prefer "realistic" to "negative". I think thats fair.

[FredLynn]

Plus 1 for "smoke a bowl"

 

And it's also utterly ridiculous for 1 game ( out of 162 ) to change your perception about a team going from "winning a ring " to missing the playoffs

 

There is a point at which every one of us realizes that the dream of a ring is gone. Mine came tonite. Yours may come later. I think its over. And its time to make the changes necessary to compete again, because its pretty clear that this team does not have it.

Major housecleaning changes have to happen. If the FO does not get a high quality SP then it should be clear that they are of like mind.

[Emmz]

You need to relax, you're stressing everyone else out by talking about the season being over. Of course no one wants to hear that s***. You seem to think no one realizes that this team is going to fail if they continue to play like ass.

[FredLynn]

I guess a good discussion of how to improve this team would be to start with players who should be off limits for trading. Who on this team should NOT be traded? Here is my list, and its short:

 

Middlebrooks

Kalish

Doubront

Morales

Pedroia

Saltalamacchia

 

Thats pretty much it. IMO no one else should be off limits at the trade deadline. Most of these players are young. This team desperately needs to get younger and more talented, especially in the pitching department.

[FredLynn]

You need to relax' date=' you're stressing everyone else out by talking about the season being over. Of course no one wants to hear that s***. You seem to think no one realizes that this team is going to fail if they continue to play like ass.[/quote']

 

Thanks Emmz...I am calming down after that loss. Probably typed some things I shouldn't have. I know that I am not the only frustrated Sox fan right now, and there are many intelligent posters here who can clearly see which direction the team is headed.

Nonetheless, I truly believe that if the goal is to compete for a ring this year, we are not going to get there. The next logical step then is to begin to discuss what needs to be done to put us in the best possible position to compete for a ring in 2013 or 2014. I think thats a legitimate topic to discuss.

[Emmz]

You are noticeably passionate, and I have to respect that.

[FredLynn]

You are noticeably passionate' date=' and I have to respect that.[/quote']

 

Yes, but it will pass. I can honestly say that I have never lost a wink of sleep due to any sports event. Gotta keep things prioritized.

Interesting stat: if the Yankees keep playing .600 baseball then will win 96 games. They would win about 49 game of the remaining 81. In order to catch them we would need to win 56 games of our remaining 81, or .691 baseball. That translates into a 112 win season over a full season.

The numbers just don't work out for us right now. I have no idea what is really wrong with this team. Its more than the pitching I believe.

[jung]

It is more than the pitching but everything in baseball starts with starting pitching and we just do not have enough. Beyond that we do not play tight, baseball. We play lose defensively and rely to heavily on offensive explosions to win games. We need better starting pitching....plus defenders in the key defensive positions instead of insisting on putting defensive liabilities in those positions, especially when we expect a close low scoring contest and we must be able to manufacture runs instead of always relying on some sort of offensive explosion.

[example1]

Yes, but it will pass. I can honestly say that I have never lost a wink of sleep due to any sports event. Gotta keep things prioritized.

Interesting stat: if the Yankees keep playing .600 baseball then will win 96 games. They would win about 49 game of the remaining 81. In order to catch them we would need to win 56 games of our remaining 81, or .691 baseball. That translates into a 112 win season over a full season.

 

I was about to post a snarky response to you starting this thread but I stopped because I can see you're just upset and starting to calm down.

 

I don't think that worrying about the Yankees does the slightest good at all. It's just not worth it. It's not about winning the division right now, it's about finishing the arduous season and having a shot at the World Series. There are multiple paths to a World Series and not all of them go through a division title.

 

Yes, tonight was a really disappointing loss. It's frustrating as hell. That said, it's just one loss. The team is well within striking distance and in no way should they hang it up (as the title of your thread implies). They aren't getting crushed, they are losing close games, on the road, late in games.

 

The numbers just don't work out for us right now. I have no idea what is really wrong with this team. Its more than the pitching I believe.

 

Yes, it is more than just pitching. Two of the most dynamic players in the league are out of the lineup. The team's closer, who has a track record that matches Papelbon's when on the mound, has missed the entire season, to the tune of 4-5 blown saves and an ERA above 4 for Aceves. They've had dozens of lineups, dozens of center fielders, and their two supposed rocks in the middle of the lineup (Pedroia and Gonzalez) are both having the worst years of their careers. It is likely that both are hiding injuries, partially because the team can't stand to lose them right now. We talk about the pitching, but look at the offense they have had on this roadtrip and tell me they don't have concerns on offense, or that they wouldn't be better with Ellsbury and/or Crawford.

 

Their hot-shot rookie 3B is down with an injury, so they're starting Punto every day.

 

I suspect you see all of these things as negatives, and they probably are. What does a glass-half-full person see?

 

* This team is within striking distance of a legitimate WC spot DESPITE having more injuries than any team reasonably can expect to weather.

* The bullpen is arguibly the best in the league (aside from Aceves). They have a lot of depth and some guys who--to my eye, at least--are doing it legitimately, not because of luck. Andrew Miller and Vicente Padilla have both been exceptional.

* The rotation hasn't been blowing these games. They have been tough enough to pitch through jams and have kept the team in most games.

* Ortiz is having a career year in terms of production and leadership.

* They suddenly have one of the best offensive catchers in the game.

 

 

To me, this is a better team than last year's team. Last year seemed like a hapless, flawed team. Their bullpen was two pitchers deep, their team seemed old and slow and disinterested. Varitek and Wakefield were getting far too much playing time, as were Darnell MacDonald and JD Drew. Now, we don't know who should be sent down and the idea of getting injured players back almost poses more problems than solutions... that's not a bad problem to have.

 

Unlike last year, this team seems like the kind of team that could really turn it on down the stretch and who other teams would not want to face if that happens. They have a winning record on the road and stay in games with the help of their bullpen, which Valentine has been managing very well. Their defense has been professional, if not excellent, and stands to get better with two of the better defenders returning to CF and LF.

 

Long story short, I wouldn't write the team off just yet. Yes, they have some work to do to turn things around, and the have to win the games that are given to them. At the same time, when this team is up and running they should be able to do some damage. Just don't compare them to the Yankees at every turn. It really isn't relevant to whether or not the Sox are capable of making a splash this year.

[SemperFi Sox]

This is not a likable team.

[Youk Of The Nation]

I guess a good discussion of how to improve this team would be to start with players who should be off limits for trading. Who on this team should NOT be traded? Here is my list, and its short:

 

Middlebrooks

Kalish

Doubront

Morales

Pedroia

Saltalamacchia

 

Thats pretty much it. IMO no one else should be off limits at the trade deadline. Most of these players are young. This team desperately needs to get younger and more talented, especially in the pitching department.

 

You put Kalish on this list but not Ortiz? Gonzalez? Ortiz has been the Sox's best hitter all season. You think things look bleak pre-ASB, think about post-ASB without Ortiz. As for Gonzalez, you've made it clear on numerous occasions that you think he's just terrible, but what in his history as a player makes you think he's going to keep hitting without power for the rest of his contract in Boston? It's a rough stretch, there's no need to go all fire sale when realistically one good SP and maybe another infielder is all they need at the deadline. There are plenty of minor leaguers and plenty of teams desperate at every deadline (this year my guess is the Cardinals or the Phillies) to get a SP without burning down the entire team.

[SCM33]

Thread title change.....I see what you did there.

 

http://memearchive.net/memerial.net/3731/i-see-what-you-did-there.jpg

[FredLynn]

You put Kalish on this list but not Ortiz? Gonzalez? Ortiz has been the Sox's best hitter all season. You think things look bleak pre-ASB' date=' think about post-ASB without Ortiz. As for Gonzalez, you've made it clear on numerous occasions that you think he's just terrible, but what in his history as a player makes you think he's going to keep hitting without power for the rest of his contract in Boston? It's a rough stretch, there's no need to go all fire sale when realistically one good SP and maybe another infielder is all they need at the deadline. There are plenty of minor leaguers and plenty of teams desperate at every deadline (this year my guess is the Cardinals or the Phillies) to get a SP without burning down the entire team.[/quote']

 

I put Kalish on the list because he is part of the future of the team and Ortiz, despite the fact that he is our best offensive player this year, is soon to be part of the past.

I appreciate the mods changing the title of this thread just a bit. I admit that it was just a little reactionary. That said, I do not think that its unreasonable position to take that this season we are no longer competing for a ring but perhaps for a brief playoff appearance only. Is that really the goal? For me the goal is a ring and I think the FO should do everything they can to make that happen, including trading Ortiz if we can get value in return. Our run will not be this year. We simply do not have the pitching to make a real run at a ring. But we can set ourselves up to compete for a ring for many years if we play our cards right.

[SoxFanForsyth]

We are 1.5 out of the Wild Card.

 

We have not lost a single game to the Yankees.

 

Right after the ASB, this team gets Ellsbury and Crawford back.

Soon after that, this team will get Bard, Buchholz, and Bailey back.

 

Bard has reportedly turned a corner (according to multiple Red Sox sources as well as Buster Olney). His last outing, he threw 10 pitches, 8 for strikes. He had a terrible outing the night before, but said that he "Felt something click" at the end of that outing, resulting in 2 quick outs, and carried it into his next outing, which he retired the side in order.

 

You tell me, Pumpsie. When this team is on the cusp of getting 2 strikeout pitchers at the back of the bullpen, two MVP caliber players in the outfield, and a guy in Clay Buchholz who was really turning it on before he got sick, how can you say that this team is done??!?

 

Everyone said the entire 1st half - Just survive until the big guys come back. When they come back, then you make your move. Stay within striking distance. I'd say 1.5 in the WC and 6.5 in the East is well within striking distance. Hell, take 3/4 from the Yankees this weekend and we're 4.5 back in the East.

 

This season is not even close to being over. Blowing this team up? That's a joke.

[Bellhorn04]

I think Pumpsie's focus is on our W-L record. And to a certain extent I agree that you can't get around the W-L record. 42-39 is dismal, no matter what potential upgrades are on the horizon. We keep losing games we shouldn't be losing. Losing 4 of 6 to Seattle and Oakland is ridiculous.

[mvp 78]

As I didn't think they would win a WS this year, I can't say I've been all that disappointed. I'm just enjoying the good stuff: WMB emergence, Morales as a starter, Salty playing well, Ortiz mashing, return of Kalish, Ross making me eat my words, etc...

[redsoxfan3]

As I didn't think they would win a WS this year' date=' I can't say I've been all that disappointed. I'm just enjoying the good stuff: WMB emergence, Morales as a starter, Salty playing well, Ortiz mashing, return of Kalish, Ross making me eat my words, etc...[/quote']

 

I am enjoying the fact that we are still in the running for the playoffs with everything that has happened this year. It is so hard to tell what is going to happen with this team. We get Ells, CC, and Bailey back who could be huge contributors. Bard could also return to the pen as a good reliever again. I think we are only going to progressively get better.

[jung]

There are fun things to watch...Cook today should be interesting although this is still not the kind of offensive team we would really like to see him pitch against.

 

The way the Sox fail in close, low scoring games is very difficult to watch. The Sox seem so stubborn to play the game the way they want to play it and nobody can really play that way....it is not just them....nobody is that good....you really have to take what you can and hold down the opponent as much as you can.

 

While Salty is fun to watch at the plate...Salty behind the plate is like chaulk across a blackboard.

 

I am really worried about Kalish. While he has his "no excuses" theme going, he does not look confident at all either in the field or at the plate....been wearin' that please don't hit the ball here look lately and seems like he is walking through a maze on the way to......and then back from a plate appearance.

[example1]

Give Kalish some slack. He's a tough kid and is returning after a full season off and rushing to get back. He's got the tools and character to be quite successful.

[jung]

I think the Sox should cut him some slack...he is just not quite ready yet.

[mvp 78]

Give Kalish some slack. He's a tough kid and is returning after a full season off and rushing to get back. He's got the tools and character to be quite successful.

 

I'm hopping aboard this train.

[InfernoOrangeSS]

I hope I can hold out till all these MVPers get back from injury...We get like 6 of them right? Swept by Oakland? Wow!

 

(I do think we will make a run at the playoffs...I just wanted to add my own frustration to this thread.)

 

 

[FredLynn]

I think Pumpsie's focus is on our W-L record. And to a certain extent I agree that you can't get around the W-L record. 42-39 is dismal' date=' no matter what potential upgrades are on the horizon. We keep losing games we shouldn't be losing. Losing 4 of 6 to Seattle and Oakland is ridiculous.[/quote']

 

Not really Bob. My focus is based on the opinion that the goal is to win a ring and that this team is nowhere close to that goal. Our W-L record supports that. I would rather admit that we are dead in the water and be SELLERS this year, for once, and try to assemble a worthy team for next year or the year after that. I am dead serious that I think we are just fetid flotsam this year, and last night's loss, despite my overreaction, cinched that opinion for me.

Other knowledgeable fans have other opinions, and thats fine. It is the differing opinions that makes this board interesting.

[FenwayWest]

 

We have not lost a single game to the Yankees.

 

We certainly have lost to the yankees... Twice! In Fenway!.... The fact is, we actually haven't WON a game against them yet this year...

 

In other news... I think its unlikely... but we're still in it... Teams can get hot late, look at St Louis last year, the Rockies in 2007.... Right now, I'd be happy to make the playoffs, and I think its possible. The team isn't playing to its potential. The talent is there, they're just not playing up to it.

[ibot2much]

We are 1.5 out of the Wild Card.

 

We have not lost a single game to the Yankees.

 

 

Yea..you are so right...not a single game.....just the only two they played against NYY 4/20 and 4/21 2-6 and 9-15

[Youk Of The Nation]

I'm pretty sure SFF meant that during the two losses to Oakland the Sox didn't lose a game in the standings to the Yankees, since they also lost those two days to the Rays. He didn't mean we hadn't lost to the Yankees, just that the two losses to Oakland just kept things stagnant instead of dropping the Sox further from first.

[FenwayWest]

Ah ok, that makes sense then...