What do the Red Sox need to do to make the playoffs?

[FredLynn]

Just to be clear' date=' what has BC done wrong in your view?[/quote']

 

In general terms its his job to provide the manager with players capable of competing. He is responsible for petitioning the owners for the funds necessary to acquire those players after making judgements about their level of talent. He has failed in that regard. More specifically, he has made sure that Daniel Bard was of no use to the team this year by leaving him in the role of SP past all logical reasoning. And he failed, like his former boss, to correct the pitching issues on this team that have been present for at least four years now. He also allowed certain players to be insubordinate to their new manager without repercussion and allowed others to mouth off about their contract situation publicly to the detriment of the team, again without any visible disciplinary action.

I am sure I can think of more, but off the top of my head, that IMO should suffice to discharge him from the service of the franchise.

[jacksonianmarch]

Pumps, Cherington is responsible for 2 trades, the Ross signing, the Scutaro deal, the Papi negotations, the retooled pen and the Bard experiment. Otherwise, petitioning the owners for more money isnt going to work since they have made it clear they need to get under the $189 million tax threshold for next season. He could offer to fellatiate John Henry at his beck and call and it still wouldnt work. You cannot kill him for not raising the payroll

 

You can kill Cherington on the trades for now. Reddick is turning into an all star level OFer for a team badly in need of offense. The sox got back a no power RFer and a closer who hasnt suited up once for the sox

 

Lowrie has been one of the most productive shortstops in baseball in Houston while Mark Melancon has been an enigma/juggs machine in Boston.

 

The Ross signing was pure genius and might make all of the above go away if he can be dealt for something of long term value

 

The Papi negotiations were far from great, but he got him on a one yr deal, which also could end up being a humongous boon for the org if they deal him for someone with long term value

 

The Scutaro deal at the time was a money saving move that allowed you to get Ross. Mortensen looks like he could be a valuable piece for this team going forward, so the deal doesnt actually look that bad in retrospect even with the issues the sox have had in the IF

 

The rebuilt pen is all on Cherington. His hands were all over the Miller transformation, the Padilla signing, the Cook signing, the Aceves move to the closers role, etc. Cherington did in one yr what Theo never did and that is build a good bullpen. It might be smoke and mirrors, but the results to this point are great.

 

You can definitely kill Cherington for the Bard experiment. I think Bobby made it pretty clear that he wanted Bard in the pen but was overruled. Now the kid cannot get minor leaguers out and has lost his stuff. If Bard never regains his form, then that singular decision could be the deathknell for him in Boston. Taking your relief ace, a guy who was shut down dominant for 2 seasons and turning him into a shell shocked soldier hiding from combat is all on him.

[iortiz]

Pumps' date=' Cherington is responsible for 2 trades, the Ross signing, the Scutaro deal, the Papi negotations, the retooled pen and the Bard experiment. Otherwise, petitioning the owners for more money isnt going to work since [b']they have made it clear they need to get under the $189 million tax threshold for next season[/b]. He could offer to fellatiate John Henry at his beck and call and it still wouldnt work. You cannot kill him for not raising the payroll

 

You can kill Cherington on the trades for now. Reddick is turning into an all star level OFer for a team badly in need of offense. The sox got back a no power RFer and a closer who hasnt suited up once for the sox

 

Lowrie has been one of the most productive shortstops in baseball in Houston while Mark Melancon has been an enigma/juggs machine in Boston.

 

The Ross signing was pure genius and might make all of the above go away if he can be dealt for something of long term value

 

The Papi negotiations were far from great, but he got him on a one yr deal, which also could end up being a humongous boon for the org if they deal him for someone with long term value

 

The Scutaro deal at the time was a money saving move that allowed you to get Ross. Mortensen looks like he could be a valuable piece for this team going forward, so the deal doesnt actually look that bad in retrospect even with the issues the sox have had in the IF

 

The rebuilt pen is all on Cherington. His hands were all over the Miller transformation, the Padilla signing, the Cook signing, the Aceves move to the closers role, etc. Cherington did in one yr what Theo never did and that is build a good bullpen. It might be smoke and mirrors, but the results to this point are great.

 

You can definitely kill Cherington for the Bard experiment. I think Bobby made it pretty clear that he wanted Bard in the pen but was overruled. Now the kid cannot get minor leaguers out and has lost his stuff. If Bard never regains his form, then that singular decision could be the deathknell for him in Boston. Taking your relief ace, a guy who was shut down dominant for 2 seasons and turning him into a shell shocked soldier hiding from combat is all on him.

 

This is completely false.

 

Cherington said over and over again that the LT was not the show stopper in order to build the team. Thing was that He and BV said that they felt confident with the pitching staff they had by the time (although, everybody had huge question marks in that regard), V even said that pitching was not a priority (Whata an idiot).

Now, we all know the results.

[Bellhorn04]

This is completely false.

 

Cherington said over and over again that the LT was not the show stopper in order to build the team. Thing was that He and BV said that they felt confident with the pitching staff they had by the time (although, everybody had huge question marks in that regard), V even said that pitching was not a priority (Whata an idiot).

Now, we all know the results.

 

With regard to the LT, I'm pretty sure what Cherington and/or Lucchino actually said was that the team wasn't trying to stay under the threshold for 2012 - in fact they were already over the threshold without doing much of anything because so much money was already committed.

 

Don't forget that when they traded Scutaro they said that this was going to 'free up payroll'. They then used part of that money to sign Ross.

 

Jackso is right that Cherington had very little payroll flexibility handed to him.

 

The comments about having enough pitching were a combo of PR and undue optimism.

[a700hitter]

This is completely false.

 

Cherington said over and over again that the LT was not the show stopper in order to build the team. Thing was that He and BV said that they felt confident with the pitching staff they had by the time (although, everybody had huge question marks in that regard), V even said that pitching was not a priority (Whata an idiot).

Now, we all know the results.

This is true. Time and again Cherington and bobby V repeated that they were happy with their pitching going into the season. That had me completely baffled, because it was obviously tin and deficient. I think that was just a cover story for consumption by the press. Did they think the fans were so stupid as to buy such an obviously false story? It is instances like this that cause me to never trust any statements from the FO or stories based on FO sources. They are manipulating the story to their advantage-- many times with little semblance of truth or accuracy.

[iortiz]

With regard to the LT, I'm pretty sure what Cherington and/or Lucchino actually said was that the team wasn't trying to stay under the threshold for 2012 - in fact they were already over the threshold without doing much of anything because so much money was already committed.

 

Don't forget that when they traded Scutaro they said that this was going to 'free up payroll'. They then used part of that money to sign Ross.

 

Jackso is right that Cherington had very little payroll flexibility handed to him.

 

The comments about having enough pitching were a combo of PR and undue optimism.

 

Still, the number is a mystery to me. Do you know the exact number?

 

Anyway, They clearly said that if they needed to invest they would. Again, They didn't since they felt that they had a "great team". We do not know their budget. How much budget did BC have to play with? Nobody knows. Either way they could use Ortiz Money in pitching, bringing a guy like Kuroda or Buehrle (year by year salary) or whatever. They did not.

 

Were comments rhetoric/PR by the time? I do not know, seemed so. I'm just saying what he said by the time.

 

Let's face it, if we miss the POs again, this is on BC and the FO. Thus far, and as Chief in command of Red Sox operations, he charges the blame of this partial result which is last place in the division; it is what it is. Ain't over, though.

[SoxSport]

Youkilis' apparent turnaround in Chicago is more evidence this team has some morale problems--alluded to by Olney and Cafardo. If those problems aren't corrected, this team is going nowhere. They are just kidding themselves.

[redsoxfan3]

Just out of curiosity' date=' but what did Pedroia say that makes you think he cannot keep his mouth shut?[/b']

 

Two things, primarily. First, before the season started, Valentine made a comment (I think it was about Youkilis not seeming to be himself, but its not important exactly what Pedroia's new boss said) and Pedroia told the media that "Thats not the way we do things around here. He'll (Valentine) figure it out" and second, when Pedroia injured his thumb the first time, his comment when asked if he was going to be on the DL was "No one tells me when I am going to play". Here are the exact quotes:

 

I don’t really understand what Bobby’s trying to do, but that’s not the way we do things here. Maybe in Japan.

 

-Mighty Mouth 4/17

 

"I'm going to play on Tuesday, man," he said.

"They don't tell me anything, man," he said. "I play Tuesday."

 

-Mighty Mouth 6/3

 

Here is another one from last season:

 

We’re not going to end the season being horse**** like we are…It ain’t going to end like this, I’ll tell you that.

 

-Mighty Mouth, last season early in September

 

Ortiz is the same way. He too should just shut up and play ball. I don't really want to hear about how "disrespected" he is when he team is playing like crap.

 

I understand your points and how someone can take them offensively. I think Ortiz is more out of line about bitching about how he is disrespected. I don't think Pedroia has done anything like that. Pedroia is a realist and says what is on his mind. He didn't like the manager questioning a player's work ethic, when fact has it that Youk has always been a hard worker, so I was actually impressed Pedroia had the balls to say something about that. The one where he said that no one tells him he is going to play is just him being stubborn. He hates to sit out and wants to help his team. He probably did cross the line a bit there, but I don't think it is anything that serious. The last one when he said the team was playing like horseshit was a situation where a player was showing his frustration. Everyone was frustrated. I don't think any of those situations were all that bad. Pedroia has a mouth, that is for sure. He says what is on his mind, but I do not think it hurts the team any. He isn't going around talking s*** about the FO, manager, or his teammates.

[Bellhorn04]

Still, the number is a mystery to me. Do you know the exact number?

 

Anyway, They clearly said that if they needed to invest they would. Again, They didn't since they felt that they had a "great team". We do not know their budget. How much budget did BC have to play with? Nobody knows. Either way they could use Ortiz Money in pitching, bringing a guy like Kuroda or Buehrle (year by year salary) or whatever. They did not.

 

Here are the most recent numbers I had for the 2012 luxury tax calcs.

 

1 Gonzalez 22.00

2 Crawford 20.29

3 Beckett 17.00

4 Lackey 16.50

5 Ortiz 14.58

6 Youkilis 10.31

7 Matsuzaka 8.67

8 Ellsbury 8.05

9 Buchholz 7.38

10 Pedroia 6.80

11 Lester 6.00

12 Jenks 6.00

13 Bailey 3.90

14 Ross 3.00

15 Salty 2.50

16 Iglesias 2.06

17 Sweeney 1.75

18 Bard 1.61

19 Punto 1.50

20 Shoppach 1.35

21 Aceves 1.28

22 Aviles 1.20

23 Albers 1.05

24 Miller 1.04

25 Morales 0.85

25 man total 166.67

26-40 man total 8.00

Benefits 10.50

Bonuses 2.00

Total 187.17

 

Notes:

 

-A few of those numbers like the benefits are estimates, but they should be close.

-It's my understanding the settlement with Jenks resulted in a 1.5 million reduction of his contract.

-They also had a reduction on Youkilis's contract of something like 2 million.

-The threshold for 2012 is 178 million.

-The threshold for 2013 stays at 178 million.

-The threshold for 2014, 2015, 2016 increases to 189 million.

-There is a big change in 2014 that results in an additional penalty for exceeding the threshold. I'm not sure exactly how it works but I read that EVEN THE YANKEES plan to get their payroll to 189 million for 2014 because it will save them 50 million in tax and penalties.

[Bellhorn04]

The team doesn't disclose its exact budget limit.

[Laser Show]

Only 4 of those top 13 players could have played if they wanted. That's where the problems with this team arise. So much wasted money

[redsoxbeatz]

Youkilis' apparent turnaround in Chicago is more evidence this team has some morale problems--alluded to by Olney and Cafardo. If those problems aren't corrected' date=' this team is going nowhere. They are just kidding themselves.[/quote']

 

Seriously! I added Youk to my fantasy baseball challenge team, cheap market value!

[redsoxbeatz]

1 Gonzalez 22.00

2 Crawford 20.29

3 Beckett 17.00

4 Lackey 16.50

 

Top four makes me want to puke till I pass out.

 

p.s. Crawford is now "possibly" returning for the White Sox series at Fenway on the 16th. He should just sit out for the season, with so much rust to shake off he'll be useless.

[iortiz]

Thanks for the numbers Bellhorn04. A 190 MUSD team in the last place huh?. Thanks Theo. Thanks LL. ...and now, Thanks BC.

 

Jenks, D-K and Youk won't be next season. I doubt that they resign Papi and Ross. If so, you will have 40 MUSD to play with next season in order to bring at least a solid SP.

 

As I said in offseason, they put in jeopardy a 190 MUSD team when they decided not to bring another arm.

 

They decided save cents, and spend dollars.

 

Hopefully things turn around, somehow.

[lospunchados]

Since this thread has gone on a tangent of questioning BC I'll throw a bit out there. Almost all of BC's problems go straight to the Bard decision and no payroll flexibility. In multiple sources Bobby V. had talked about Bard training to be a starter next year and to prepare for it. This was in the first week to week and a half of december. With papelbon allready having left in free agency and Bard moving from the setup role a strength ( 8th and ninth inning bullpen) now was a glaring weakness.

 

They have a lot of shortstops available (lowrie,aviles,scutaro and iglesias) so getting bullpen help from that makes sense. Lowrie makes sense to move as he had been unable to stay healthy thus far and still had fairly good trade value so he was moved for a closer, who could be either close or be a setup man.

 

That trade was great and made sense leaving three people for ss and of the three, none have had major injury concerns. They would all be comparable valueeither with the bat or better with the glove (ie. Iglesisas better defensivly, not as good a hitter as lowrie). On the same day though they add nick punto to a two year deal. To me this just screams that they really don't have any faith in Iglesias at all.

 

Then, on December 28th, they use Reddick ( who is viewed i'm assuming as movable mostly on the basis of he is a left handed hitter and we have Kalish in the minors) to get a closer. It makes sense if you decide that Kalish will get healthy and back on track and he is more of the future, and with the lineup for the 2012 ( in theory ) all ready featuring Crawford,Ellsbury,Ortiz and Gonzlaez as lefties, I guess it is justifiable.

 

With four shortstops again in mid January they trade Scutaro for a bullpen arm (Mortensen) and to clear up some cap space, which they use, two days later to sign Cody Ross. Great move a Right handed power bat added for half of Scutaro's contract.

 

With 32 million in pitching contracts that we would be lucky to get half a season from ( actually it's probably better if we get no pitching from them) BC obviously was looking from within the orginization to fill the starting pitching holes. He had found cheap bullpen arms and traded for other bullpen arms so he felt ok there.

 

The Ortiz situation, not handled great ( if they really wanted some cap space for someone or a SP they could have offered less dollars per year and a multi year to Ortiz).

 

The main problem is the front office saw his stuff and thought hey, why spend 10 million on Kuroda or multi year deal to Buerhle when i can get a Verlander or Strasburg starter for 1 million.

 

Some of the deals look bad now but at the time most made sense but all hinged on a big gamble that didn't pan out. For a Baseball gm with no money to use, in retrospect two of the three deals now look good.

 

Lowrie for Melancon is still a good deal as other than a disasterous April/May he has been fantastic since being recalled. Aviles numbers vs Lowrie are very close and though Lowrie has more homers the dropoff isn't terrible ( it wouldn't be a dropoff at all if Aviles could learn to take a walk, but appearantly he can't) as aviles has a higher average and more sb's.

 

Scutaro esentially for Ross and Mortensen has been great as Aviles numbers are comparable to Scutaro's.

 

The Reddick deal is looking really bad now ( especially with the laughable stat that Reddick 20 HR, Redsox entire outfield 20 HR).

 

The Punto "deal" was stupid as well. Why play Iglesisas 2 million a season and not give him a shot (500k less than the combined salary of aviles and punto combined).

 

I think it's tough to blame BC for the terrible season so far, the first season of a baseball GM honestly has very little to do with what they have done, and his big decision/gamble ( Bard) seemed as much based on the previous GM's problems as him just wanting to throw Bard into a new situation. With a lot of young talent and some expiring contracts coming off the books i think we will see what he can do soon. At least he appears to have some kind of plan or strategy in place ( though the first idea didn't really plan out), it's more than Theo was doing in his last couple of years.

[lospunchados]

Since this thread has gone on a tangent of questioning BC I'll throw a bit out there. Almost all of BC's problems go straight to the Bard decision and no payroll flexibility. In multiple sources Bobby V. had talked about Bard training to be a starter next year and to prepare for it. This was in the first week to week and a half of december. With papelbon allready having left in free agency and Bard moving from the setup role a strength ( 8th and ninth inning bullpen) now was a glaring weakness.

 

They have a lot of shortstops available (lowrie,aviles,scutaro and iglesias) so getting bullpen help from that makes sense. Lowrie makes sense to move as he had been unable to stay healthy thus far and still had fairly good trade value so he was moved for a closer, who could be either close or be a setup man.

 

That trade was great and made sense leaving three people for ss and of the three, none have had major injury concerns. They would all be comparable valueeither with the bat or better with the glove (ie. Iglesisas better defensivly, not as good a hitter as lowrie). On the same day though they add nick punto to a two year deal. To me this just screams that they really don't have any faith in Iglesias at all.

 

Then, on December 28th, they use Reddick ( who is viewed i'm assuming as movable mostly on the basis of he is a left handed hitter and we have Kalish in the minors) to get a closer. It makes sense if you decide that Kalish will get healthy and back on track and he is more of the future, and with the lineup for the 2012 ( in theory ) all ready featuring Crawford,Ellsbury,Ortiz and Gonzlaez as lefties, I guess it is justifiable.

 

With four shortstops again in mid January they trade Scutaro for a bullpen arm (Mortensen) and to clear up some cap space, which they use, two days later to sign Cody Ross. Great move a Right handed power bat added for half of Scutaro's contract.

 

With 32 million in pitching contracts that we would be lucky to get half a season from ( actually it's probably better if we get no pitching from them) BC obviously was looking from within the orginization to fill the starting pitching holes. He had found cheap bullpen arms and traded for other bullpen arms so he felt ok there.

 

The Ortiz situation, not handled great ( if they really wanted some cap space for someone or a SP they could have offered less dollars per year and a multi year to Ortiz).

 

The main problem is the front office saw his stuff and thought hey, why spend 10 million on Kuroda or multi year deal to Buerhle when i can get a Verlander or Strasburg starter for 1 million.

 

Some of the deals look bad now but at the time most made sense but all hinged on a big gamble that didn't pan out. For a Baseball gm with no money to use, in retrospect two of the three deals now look good.

 

Lowrie for Melancon is still a good deal as other than a disasterous April/May he has been fantastic since being recalled. Aviles numbers vs Lowrie are very close and though Lowrie has more homers the dropoff isn't terrible ( it wouldn't be a dropoff at all if Aviles could learn to take a walk, but appearantly he can't) as aviles has a higher average and more sb's.

 

Scutaro esentially for Ross and Mortensen has been great as Aviles numbers are comparable to Scutaro's.

 

The Reddick deal is looking really bad now ( especially with the laughable stat that Reddick 20 HR, Redsox entire outfield 20 HR).

 

The Punto "deal" was stupid as well. Why play Iglesisas 2 million a season and not give him a shot (500k less than the combined salary of aviles and punto combined).

 

I think it's tough to blame BC for the terrible season so far, the first season of a baseball GM honestly has very little to do with what they have done, and his big decision/gamble ( Bard) seemed as much based on the previous GM's problems as him just wanting to throw Bard into a new situation. With a lot of young talent and some expiring contracts coming off the books i think we will see what he can do soon. At least he appears to have some kind of plan or strategy in place ( though the first idea didn't really plan out), it's more than Theo was doing in his last couple of years.

[a700hitter]

Since this thread has gone on a tangent of questioning BC I'll throw a bit out there. Almost all of BC's problems go straight to the Bard decision and no payroll flexibility. In multiple sources Bobby V. had talked about Bard training to be a starter next year and to prepare for it. This was in the first week to week and a half of december. With papelbon allready having left in free agency and Bard moving from the setup role a strength ( 8th and ninth inning bullpen) now was a glaring weakness.

 

They have a lot of shortstops available (lowrie,aviles,scutaro and iglesias) so getting bullpen help from that makes sense. Lowrie makes sense to move as he had been unable to stay healthy thus far and still had fairly good trade value so he was moved for a closer, who could be either close or be a setup man.

 

That trade was great and made sense leaving three people for ss and of the three, none have had major injury concerns. They would all be comparable valueeither with the bat or better with the glove (ie. Iglesisas better defensivly, not as good a hitter as lowrie). On the same day though they add nick punto to a two year deal. To me this just screams that they really don't have any faith in Iglesias at all.

 

Then, on December 28th, they use Reddick ( who is viewed i'm assuming as movable mostly on the basis of he is a left handed hitter and we have Kalish in the minors) to get a closer. It makes sense if you decide that Kalish will get healthy and back on track and he is more of the future, and with the lineup for the 2012 ( in theory ) all ready featuring Crawford,Ellsbury,Ortiz and Gonzlaez as lefties, I guess it is justifiable.

 

With four shortstops again in mid January they trade Scutaro for a bullpen arm (Mortensen) and to clear up some cap space, which they use, two days later to sign Cody Ross. Great move a Right handed power bat added for half of Scutaro's contract.

 

With 32 million in pitching contracts that we would be lucky to get half a season from ( actually it's probably better if we get no pitching from them) BC obviously was looking from within the orginization to fill the starting pitching holes. He had found cheap bullpen arms and traded for other bullpen arms so he felt ok there.

 

The Ortiz situation, not handled great ( if they really wanted some cap space for someone or a SP they could have offered less dollars per year and a multi year to Ortiz).

 

The main problem is the front office saw his stuff and thought hey, why spend 10 million on Kuroda or multi year deal to Buerhle when i can get a Verlander or Strasburg starter for 1 million.

 

Some of the deals look bad now but at the time most made sense but all hinged on a big gamble that didn't pan out. For a Baseball gm with no money to use, in retrospect two of the three deals now look good.

 

Lowrie for Melancon is still a good deal as other than a disasterous April/May he has been fantastic since being recalled. Aviles numbers vs Lowrie are very close and though Lowrie has more homers the dropoff isn't terrible ( it wouldn't be a dropoff at all if Aviles could learn to take a walk, but appearantly he can't) as aviles has a higher average and more sb's.

 

Scutaro esentially for Ross and Mortensen has been great as Aviles numbers are comparable to Scutaro's.

 

The Reddick deal is looking really bad now ( especially with the laughable stat that Reddick 20 HR, Redsox entire outfield 20 HR).

 

The Punto "deal" was stupid as well. Why play Iglesisas 2 million a season and not give him a shot (500k less than the combined salary of aviles and punto combined).

 

I think it's tough to blame BC for the terrible season so far, the first season of a baseball GM honestly has very little to do with what they have done, and his big decision/gamble ( Bard) seemed as much based on the previous GM's problems as him just wanting to throw Bard into a new situation. With a lot of young talent and some expiring contracts coming off the books i think we will see what he can do soon. At least he appears to have some kind of plan or strategy in place ( though the first idea didn't really plan out), it's more than Theo was doing in his last couple of years.

He doesn't get all of the blame, but he gets partial blame. Just because a deal looks good at the time doesn't mean that he is not accountable when it turns out to be bad. That's just not the way it works. He made the deals and they blew up. He's accountable. It doesn't matter how good the deals looked when they were made. The opposing GM's are patting themselves on the back and rightly so. They got the better of those deals. Other than the Cody Ross acquisition, he has done almost nothing right. I said it over and over before the season started that starting the season with two rookies in the rotation was a recipe for failure. You can go with one guy and there should be a decent contingency plan, but two is just ensuring failure. We have done alright with Doubs, but Bard was a total failure and embarrassment and they ruined him. With the way our top 3 has pitched we are very luck that Doubs has performed. If he had bombed along with Bard like Hughes and Kennedy had bombed for the Yanks in 2008, we'd be buried in last place far behind Toronto.

[kgsmith]

quit getting players with health issues, like carl crawford

[FredLynn]

Top four makes me want to puke till I pass out.

 

p.s. Crawford is now "possibly" returning for the White Sox series at Fenway on the 16th. He should just sit out for the season, with so much rust to shake off he'll be useless.

 

All Epstein signings. As I have been writing here until I want to puke, Epstein left this franchise with a task equivalent to shoveling out the Aegean Stables.

[iortiz]

Since this thread has gone on a tangent of questioning BC I'll throw a bit out there. Almost all of BC's problems go straight to the Bard decision and no payroll flexibility. In multiple sources Bobby V. had talked about Bard training to be a starter next year and to prepare for it. This was in the first week to week and a half of december. With papelbon allready having left in free agency and Bard moving from the setup role a strength ( 8th and ninth inning bullpen) now was a glaring weakness.

 

They have a lot of shortstops available (lowrie,aviles,scutaro and iglesias) so getting bullpen help from that makes sense. Lowrie makes sense to move as he had been unable to stay healthy thus far and still had fairly good trade value so he was moved for a closer, who could be either close or be a setup man.

 

That trade was great and made sense leaving three people for ss and of the three, none have had major injury concerns. They would all be comparable valueeither with the bat or better with the glove (ie. Iglesisas better defensivly, not as good a hitter as lowrie). On the same day though they add nick punto to a two year deal. To me this just screams that they really don't have any faith in Iglesias at all.

 

Then, on December 28th, they use Reddick ( who is viewed i'm assuming as movable mostly on the basis of he is a left handed hitter and we have Kalish in the minors) to get a closer. It makes sense if you decide that Kalish will get healthy and back on track and he is more of the future, and with the lineup for the 2012 ( in theory ) all ready featuring Crawford,Ellsbury,Ortiz and Gonzlaez as lefties, I guess it is justifiable.

 

With four shortstops again in mid January they trade Scutaro for a bullpen arm (Mortensen) and to clear up some cap space, which they use, two days later to sign Cody Ross. Great move a Right handed power bat added for half of Scutaro's contract.

 

With 32 million in pitching contracts that we would be lucky to get half a season from ( actually it's probably better if we get no pitching from them) BC obviously was looking from within the orginization to fill the starting pitching holes. He had found cheap bullpen arms and traded for other bullpen arms so he felt ok there.

 

The Ortiz situation, not handled great ( if they really wanted some cap space for someone or a SP they could have offered less dollars per year and a multi year to Ortiz).

 

The main problem is the front office saw his stuff and thought hey, why spend 10 million on Kuroda or multi year deal to Buerhle when i can get a Verlander or Strasburg starter for 1 million.

 

Some of the deals look bad now but at the time most made sense but all hinged on a big gamble that didn't pan out. For a Baseball gm with no money to use, in retrospect two of the three deals now look good.

 

Lowrie for Melancon is still a good deal as other than a disasterous April/May he has been fantastic since being recalled. Aviles numbers vs Lowrie are very close and though Lowrie has more homers the dropoff isn't terrible ( it wouldn't be a dropoff at all if Aviles could learn to take a walk, but appearantly he can't) as aviles has a higher average and more sb's.

 

Scutaro esentially for Ross and Mortensen has been great as Aviles numbers are comparable to Scutaro's.

 

The Reddick deal is looking really bad now ( especially with the laughable stat that Reddick 20 HR, Redsox entire outfield 20 HR).

 

The Punto "deal" was stupid as well. Why play Iglesisas 2 million a season and not give him a shot (500k less than the combined salary of aviles and punto combined).

 

I think it's tough to blame BC for the terrible season so far, the first season of a baseball GM honestly has very little to do with what they have done, and his big decision/gamble ( Bard) seemed as much based on the previous GM's problems as him just wanting to throw Bard into a new situation. With a lot of young talent and some expiring contracts coming off the books i think we will see what he can do soon. At least he appears to have some kind of plan or strategy in place ( though the first idea didn't really plan out), it's more than Theo was doing in his last couple of years.

 

IMO a 190 MUSD team and arguably the the most important franchise in the MLB after NYY shouldn't be run for a rookie GM.

 

I'm not judging the good intentions of BC or even Theo's. That's out of question. I do not think they wished bad to the team. Thing is, this is not about intentions. This is about results. Plans versus results. If the results were bad, the plan was bad as well. It is what it is.

 

At the time each move/trade seemed "good". Again, Good intentions. Reality is saying us, most of them were not good decisions for whatever reason (plenty discussed). What worries me the most is that we have tons of examples. D-K, Jenks, CC, Lackey, etc, etc, etc. in the last, say 4 -5 years. You could mistake in a move or two, but our case is ridiculous, we have signed/traded tons of busts. As SCM33 says, We are clogged in our payroll, regardless the discipline and other aspects of the game which involves coaching, management, mentoring, professionalism, etc. leaves a lot to desire in this team.

 

Want a real change?, clean up the FO. Fire LL. Fire BC. Fire the staffs.

 

Bring Friedman. Start over, and let him build the goddamn team.

[FredLynn]

Pumps, Cherington is responsible for 2 trades, the Ross signing, the Scutaro deal, the Papi negotations, the retooled pen and the Bard experiment. Otherwise, petitioning the owners for more money isnt going to work since they have made it clear they need to get under the $189 million tax threshold for next season. He could offer to fellatiate John Henry at his beck and call and it still wouldnt work. You cannot kill him for not raising the payroll

 

You can kill Cherington on the trades for now. Reddick is turning into an all star level OFer for a team badly in need of offense. The sox got back a no power RFer and a closer who hasnt suited up once for the sox

 

Lowrie has been one of the most productive shortstops in baseball in Houston while Mark Melancon has been an enigma/juggs machine in Boston.

 

The Ross signing was pure genius and might make all of the above go away if he can be dealt for something of long term value

 

The Papi negotiations were far from great, but he got him on a one yr deal, which also could end up being a humongous boon for the org if they deal him for someone with long term value

 

The Scutaro deal at the time was a money saving move that allowed you to get Ross. Mortensen looks like he could be a valuable piece for this team going forward, so the deal doesnt actually look that bad in retrospect even with the issues the sox have had in the IF

 

The rebuilt pen is all on Cherington. His hands were all over the Miller transformation, the Padilla signing, the Cook signing, the Aceves move to the closers role, etc. Cherington did in one yr what Theo never did and that is build a good bullpen. It might be smoke and mirrors, but the results to this point are great.

 

You can definitely kill Cherington for the Bard experiment. I think Bobby made it pretty clear that he wanted Bard in the pen but was overruled. Now the kid cannot get minor leaguers out and has lost his stuff. If Bard never regains his form, then that singular decision could be the deathknell for him in Boston. Taking your relief ace, a guy who was shut down dominant for 2 seasons and turning him into a shell shocked soldier hiding from combat is all on him.

 

In the end, someone has to take responsibility for this mess. IMO its a divided blame that I place on not only Cherington (for the reasons I mentioned and stand by), but also Lucchino and especially the owners who failed to complete the job of cleaning out the FO to make room for new blood. Cherington is not new blood, he is a disciple of the incompetent buffoon who dirtied the franchise then abandoned the mess to be fixed by someone else. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Frankly, I am not sure this can be fixed until our current owners sell the team or hire someone competent to run it then stay the hell away.

[FredLynn]

One of the Sawxheads posters put up this post today. I have not verified it, but if its true, its pretty disturbing:

 

WEEI's John Dennis reported this morning that Valentine 'recently' called a team meeting to discuss attitude, focus, etc., and that in the middle of it David Ortiz stood up, turned his back, got dressed and walked out.

[jung]

I have seen this posted here and elsewhere before and it simply makes no sense. You cannot have average starting pitching and make it up in offense. That has worked on occasion especially through the Steroid era but even if it gains you success in the regular season it almost insures failure in the post season.

 

In addition, aiming for average starting pitching will almost insure below average starting pitching and with that you are not only insuring failure in the post season if you get there but you put in great jeopardy any chance that you will get there.

 

What are these proponents of offense suggesting? Are they suggesting that the Sox would have to score on an all time record setting basis in order to succeed using such a formula? I don't think they really mean to imply that but in fact that is what you are implying when you suggest that the second best offense in baseball tied to the 27th best starting pitching in baseball needs more offense to win.

 

I will acknowledge that timely hitting as opposed to hitting in general has been a problem for this team. However when your starting pitching which is without any question the most important facet of baseball is 27th out of 30, you are going nowhere.

 

If you have such feebly starting pitching and such porous defense, you are going nowhere. Never mind the error totals, this team gives up extra outs like they were Easter candy.

[jung]

I had posted something last night in the game thread about the Sox Management and their propensity to bias toward glitz and glamor moves or moves designed to bias toward the branding of the Sox over straight baseball moves. Some folks offered an opposing view.

 

My view is that what you emphasis ends up being what you are....if you don't emphasis the kinds of skill sets that would come into play when some of these whacky contracts are being considered well then they are not there when you need them....if the people are there and can do the job but they realize which of certain FO moves are being motivated by the bias towards glitz and glamor (ala LL) then they won't put their necks in that noose and step up to the plate to present an opposing argument when it is needed.

 

Nobody makes any bones even within and atop the Red Sox that LL runs the Red Sox. Well frankly LL's primary concerns are fanny's in seats and generating the optimal return for the investors from the brand that is the Red Sox. LL apparently has always been willing and able to reach down into Baseball Operations to bias decisions and he has both the impunity to do it and the willingness to throw anybody that stands in his way or that can be used as a scapegoat under the bus. Evidence LL's willingness to reach down into Baseball Operations could be found in Theo's revolt and rejection of that propensity a few years ago. I don't even want to go into the number of instances Sox upper management has thrown somebody under the bus rather than take the blame themselves...that is a book.

 

Theo left plenty of doubt about who or what influences within the Red Sox he was referring to in his most recent comments about feeling pressures to "do something" as he said in those comments relating to big FA moves. Well if anything you would have thought that Theo was pointing at himself in the way he framed those comments.....that is until LL felt compelled to defend himself from those comments! Why did LL feel compelled to defend himself from comments not directed at him in the first place?

 

Regardless of what biases upper management uses to direct this organization, things will not get better here until and unless upper management feels compelled by threats to its financial underpinnings to change that direction.

 

It has a horribly unbalanced roster, mainly dependent on heavy money, long term contracts to big stars with the preponderance of money tied up in those stars who for the most part underperform and/or create a difficult environment for any manager who's incentive is to guide the team toward victories.

 

Where was the preponderance of money tied up at the start of the year and what have those players done:

Youkalis: under performing up until his release from the Red Sox, clubhouse malcontent, appears to have forced the Sox hand as far as trading him at this point under threat of bad behavior in what already appears to be a clubhouse in trouble

Lester:underperforming, visibly expressing his anger at teammates and management

Lackey: under performed and now on the shelf recovering from TJ needed to resolve an elbow problem known to exist at the time of his signing, visibly expressed his anger toward teammates and management even for the most mundane of management decisions or teammate errors

Crawford: underperformed famously in the first year of his contract and suffering from injures some known at the time of his signing, apparently some not

Beckett: underperforming as a combination of on-field performance and roster absence due to injury, ring leader of the chicken and bear squad, willing, able and apparently insistent on proclaiming his freedom from Sox management and baseball in general

Agons: underperforming, insistent that he resolve his own issues outside of Sox coaching efforts, apparently resisting efforts by V to get him a day of rest here or there insisting that he stay in the lineup everyday through a horrific slump. At the end of it all last year complaining about the schedule and making various and sundry other ridiculous comments. May well be hiding a shoulder injury that might at this point rob him of the ability to generate the kind of power he once possessed...a shoulder injury that he had at the time of his signing

Ortiz: over performing at a level that has kept the Sox afloat this year through a period when they could easily have floated to the bottom of the league but insistent on self serving remarks right in the middle of a pretty bad season for the Sox and right on top of the disaster of last September. Adamant that he negotiate through the media, mid-season proving himself a hypocrite in the process apparently convinced that Sox Nation will rush to support him in his public contract negotiations. Bad move David.....I don't think this is going to work out like you want it to.

diceK, Underperforming, Not making huge money for a pitcher but worthy of mention here given how poorly he has performed relative to his salary and the fee paid just to talk to him before his signing. His salary is not chicken feed, just not as large as some of the other under performers

 

This is where all the real money was at the start of the season. In that group you have six players brought here under trade or FA situations, five under big money trade or FA situations and one that now makes big money (Ortiz) but was picked off the scrap heap at the time. Three of those five having injuries at the time that continue to plague them now yet were given the biggest contracts in the team's history. Two of them are not playing at all (Lackey and CC) and one of them is not and has not been the player the Sox needed him to be since the midway point of last year, his first as a Red Sox (Agons).

 

Where is it written that the Sox must offer fabulously off the hook, huge money long term contracts to players with suspect injury issues staring them in the face. Signing these players is one thing..don't give them the ranch, the keys to the kingdom, the ability to hamstring your organization for years! Why would you do that?.... Because they are a big name and it is the name you want more even than you want the player. If you want the name more than you want the player you have defacto opted for glitz and glamor over substance.

 

Why would you insure that CC would sign with you by offering him incredible money when even at the time you would have to admit that CC was a luxury....not even somebody anyone was seriously considering as a possible Red Sox target. Yet you swooped in at the last offering him a deal he could not in his right mind refuse....glitz....glamor....make another splash asset management....that is why.

 

Name me any GM that will opt for glitz and glamor over substance?

 

 

 

Unless LL gets his foot off the neck of this organization, I just don't see much change coming. I would guess there is a small chance that JH would unravel the Sox from LL control but only if he wants to keep the team and the organization starts to feel financial pain from LL's stewardship of the Sox.

[lospunchados]

In the end, someone has to take responsibility for this mess. IMO its a divided blame that I place on not only Cherington (for the reasons I mentioned and stand by), but also Lucchino and especially the owners who failed to complete the job of cleaning out the FO to make room for new blood. Cherington is not new blood, he is a disciple of the incompetent buffoon who dirtied the franchise then abandoned the mess to be fixed by someone else. There is plenty of blame to go around.

Frankly, I am not sure this can be fixed until our current owners sell the team or hire someone competent to run it then stay the hell away.

 

I'm not absolving BC of blame. The incompetent buffoon you speak of made the terrible signings. There were many rumors that others around Theo did not want either of his big signings (CC Lackey). Hiring new blood doesn't fix everything either, being a disciple of Theo could benefit him. The problem wasn't the formula, theo had it right he just quit following it. It doesn't matter who is the GM they need a solid plan to save the team, that's why I said we ned to see what BC will do. Just bringing in some other GM doesn't change anything now.

[example1]

Blaming BC for his inability to spend money on top of poorly spent money seems a bit absurd. He's blamed for not pushing the team way over the salary cap for whom? Oswalt? Do we really think that Oswalt would have this team in 1st place? Edwin Jackson?

 

The payroll flexibility--as discussed by Jacko--is a very real problem faced by both the Sox and Yankees. The penalty for being over the LT become prohibitively large in a season or two and the rewards for being under it are so enormous that teams are scrambling to do that. It's not something that could have been anticipated but is now the reality. So I don't hold BC accountable for not getting a more expensive SP to complement the already overpriced stable of SPs they had already.

 

BC gets complete credit, in my book, for all the things listed by Jacko. Ross, Scutaro and the entire bullpen--which is much more challenging than it appears... especially when you have no closer and no setup guy. I'd say he gets an A in creating a bullpen from thin air, and they actually have some pretty good BP pieces to move forward with.

[iortiz]

Thus far? He gets a F, overall.

[d-money]

Playoffs?Playoffs?lol.This team has wet itself with its s***** play!!It didnt help to start the damn season slow.Yes they have had injuries to deal with but Gonzalez has been a joke and guys like Beckett and Lester have crapped their pants.I am sick of it!!

[jung]

I don't know anymore. Does one more arm do it for the rotation? I suspect that is possible. However I thought that if they would go for an arm it would be sort of a middle of the pack arm. The worse the starting pitching gets, the more I it looks like they really will need a true number 1 starter to make enough of an difference to matter. How the heck do you make that happen at the trading deadline of the current season? What do you have to give up to make that happen and with so many other issues that sit below and behind but still there after the starting pitching how much would we expect management to be willing to risk prospects and things of that sort to bring a big deal pitcher here?

 

I just don't think they will do that. So I guess at this point we are stuck with a shot via the WC and I know one of the popular sort of optimistic views is that anything can happen if you get there....look at the Cards for example. Well the Cards are not a good example. They did not have the one game play-in which I think is to damaging to the chances of the WC. I don't like the two WC system at all.

 

The Cards got hot at the end of the year. Frankly this does not look like a team that can get that kind of hot at the end of the year. It can't get past a day anymore with some sort of odd player thing and the players are now talking out of both sides of their mouths. They want the media to leave them alone, midseason yet they want to negotiate through the media midseason. Well what the hell is that? Still has to many players going in to many different directions. I cannot for the life of me understand why upper management did not back V early on with Youk because in one move, they made it impossible for V to really gain any control of the team and they made it possible for the players to stew in their own juices as a pastime. Why should they not just complain and moan. Why concentrate on baseball when I can concentrate on my own issues making them vocally and visibly to management under the "squeaky wheel gets the grease" rule.

 

I can believe that one really good arm can make the difference if:

- It is truly a top of the rotation arm

- Beckett makes the rest of his starts not creating these gaps in his schedule and forcing him to get back on track again and again

- Buch comes back and pitches as he was pitching before he went down

- Lester pitches no worse than he has pitched so far which would suggest more middle of the road, not great but not terrible starts

- at least Ells comes back

- Ortiz continues to be the stalwart in the lineup he has been

- Pedey comes back and plays like we know he can

 

Any of those don't happen and I don't think an arm in the rotation gets it done at least to a degree that is meaningful. No sense in burning off prospects just to get a chance ala' the WC and then fail in the first round.

[SoxSport]

Blaming BC for his inability to spend money on top of poorly spent money seems a bit absurd. He's blamed for not pushing the team way over the salary cap for whom? Oswalt? Do we really think that Oswalt would have this team in 1st place? Edwin Jackson?

 

The payroll flexibility--as discussed by Jacko--is a very real problem faced by both the Sox and Yankees. The penalty for being over the LT become prohibitively large in a season or two and the rewards for being under it are so enormous that teams are scrambling to do that. It's not something that could have been anticipated but is now the reality. So I don't hold BC accountable for not getting a more expensive SP to complement the already overpriced stable of SPs they had already.

 

BC gets complete credit, in my book, for all the things listed by Jacko. Ross, Scutaro and the entire bullpen--which is much more challenging than it appears... especially when you have no closer and no setup guy. I'd say he gets an A in creating a bullpen from thin air, and they actually have some pretty good BP pieces to move forward with.

 

Ben's bad decisions:

 

--moving Bard to starter; V wanted him in the BP

 

--trading for Bailey instead of Gio G. He could have had either, but not both.

 

--not making Iglesias the starting SS from the start. His defense would have helped the pitching. Again, against the wishes of V, from reports.

 

--not bringing up Lavarnway. Nothing like learning on the job. Right, Salty?

 

 

Lucchino's bad decisions:

 

--For making the manager search public, which revealed differences with the FO

 

--For letting the FO control personnel after he hired Valentine.

 

--For maintaining the status quo and not changing the culture.

 

Lucchino, more than anyone else, is responsible for the management conflicts on the Red Sox, which could be affecting team performance.