2012 Catch-All Trade Deadline Thread

[seabeachfred]

I am reading carefully' date=' your thinking of 2008 not 07. Middlebrooks only saw 9 pitches in three plate appearances, I know he can crush everything on the inner half of the plate but he has no clue how to work a count. I also have no idea how you can possibly judge "moxie" or why a guy with two world series rings doesn't have it but a kid that's been hot for a month does. I'm not saying that Middlebrooks won't be a great player and if we are arguing whether it should be Youk or Middlebrooks after this season I would probably agree with you but for now it would be detrimental to this teams chances and the development of Middlebrooks if we throw him out there without a safety net so quickly.[/quote']

 

Working a count comes with experience and you don't get that type of experience in the minors, especially when you do the other things well. Middlebrooks is a good run producer, he has good power, he is hitting for a decent average, has a strong and accurate arm and with experience in the Majors can be a force for us for a long time. I have seen it before---a player with promise is kept down in the minors longer than he needs to and he starts to stagnate. This must not happen with Will. As far as Youk is concerned we have to pull the trigger in my opinion. If he suddenly goes lame again any chance for a trade for a decent prospect or starting pitcher goes out the window and what we have is a guy we won't have next year keeping one of our future key players in and out of the lineup. I don't want that and it would be a bad move for the Red Sox.

 

BTW, I am not anti Youkilis. I have always loved his fire and competiveness but I do not like his body and his penchant for breaking down. I really believe we should be finding the right trade to move him before he goes back on the DL---and IMO he will do just that.

[seabeachfred]

Why would the Cubs want Youkilis?? That makez zero sense. Maybe less.

 

You're right Forsythe; the Cubs don't want and need Youkilis because they are in full rebuilding mode. I hope I don't eat these words since I'm going to Chi Town to see the Red Sox play them in a three game series in less than two weeks, but the Cubs right now have a terrible team and they want to unload contracts, not take on new ones of older players. They are even hinting of eating most of Soriano's contract if they can get a team to take him. To get Garza, Epstein would want a king's ransom and we can't give that to him. One good prospect and one average one should be all we offer for him because the Yankees will not offer any more. For us to trade Youkilis it would have to be a team that is in contention and want to get an experienced bat in their lineup, but that team would have to have a good prospect or two to give us back, and some teams like the Dodgers don't have those types and neither do some of the other teams like the Mets or the Phillies.

[jacksonianmarch]

I think the sox could make a huge splash at the deadline for Starlin Castro. Iglesias, Barnes, and Lavarnway would allow them to solidify their SS position for yrs to come with a guy who reminds me so much of Hanley Ramirez it isnt even funny

[SoxFanForsyth]

I think the sox could make a huge splash at the deadline for Starlin Castro. Iglesias' date=' Barnes, and Lavarnway would allow them to solidify their SS position for yrs to come with a guy who reminds me so much of Hanley Ramirez it isnt even funny[/quote']

 

I would pull the trigger on that, but I think I would try to tack on a couple extra (received from a Youkilis trade) and pull Garza as well.

[jacksonianmarch]

I would pull the trigger on that' date=' but I think I would try to tack on a couple extra (received from a Youkilis trade) and pull Garza as well.[/quote']

 

They're gonna get a big haul for Garza too. It wouldnt make sense for them to bunch them unless the sox really go crazy.

[evilhand]

I think the sox could make a huge splash at the deadline for Starlin Castro. Iglesias' date=' Barnes, and Lavarnway would allow them to solidify their SS position for yrs to come with a guy who reminds me so much of Hanley Ramirez it isnt even funny[/quote']

 

No way do I trade Barnes at this point. Especially not before seeing how he fares against AA hitters. He might be a very important part of the rotation in the future. Could be as good as a number 2 and looks like a decent bet to at least be an innings eater 3-ish kind of pitcher.

 

The Red Sox need to keep some young pitching around because in the next few years, their vets will have expiring contracts and they'll need to be replaced. Beckett likely won't be back, Lester is going to be really expensive to retain, unless he doesn't figure out what's ailing him this year... in which case I'm not sure we want him back, Lackey is here until the end of time and costs far too much.

 

I don't want to see Barnes used in a trade like that, especially for a guy like Castro who's OBP is so heavily dependent on his batting average and who has no power.

 

I really don't get the Hanley comp. Hanley showed power at every level of the minors and usually had pretty good separation between his BA and his OBP. Castro, aside form 121 PAs in 2010, where he was overmatching the league, never flashed much power as a minor leaguer and has never really had that much separation between his batting average and his OBP.

 

They're very different kinds of hitters. Of course, they're both pretty rough in the field, so maybe that's where the comparison started, but Castro has a skill set that is going to vanish over night when he loses step with his reflexes and his bat slows down. Might not be for years, but it could happen sooner than we'd like if he was wearing the laundry.

 

It's too much of a risk to include your best pitching prospect. And yes, I slot Barnes in ahead of Ranaudo right now.

[seabeachfred]

No way do I trade Barnes at this point. Especially not before seeing how he fares against AA hitters. He might be a very important part of the rotation in the future. Could be as good as a number 2 and looks like a decent bet to at least be an innings eater 3-ish kind of pitcher.

 

The Red Sox need to keep some young pitching around because in the next few years, their vets will have expiring contracts and they'll need to be replaced. Beckett likely won't be back, Lester is going to be really expensive to retain, unless he doesn't figure out what's ailing him this year... in which case I'm not sure we want him back, Lackey is here until the end of time and costs far too much.

 

I don't want to see Barnes used in a trade like that, especially for a guy like Castro who's OBP is so heavily dependent on his batting average and who has no power.

 

I really don't get the Hanley comp. Hanley showed power at every level of the minors and usually had pretty good separation between his BA and his OBP. Castro, aside form 121 PAs in 2010, where he was overmatching the league, never flashed much power as a minor leaguer and has never really had that much separation between his batting average and his OBP.

 

They're very different kinds of hitters. Of course, they're both pretty rough in the field, so maybe that's where the comparison started, but Castro has a skill set that is going to vanish over night when he loses step with his reflexes and his bat slows down. Might not be for years, but it could happen sooner than we'd like if he was wearing the laundry.

 

It's too much of a risk to include your best pitching prospect. And yes, I slot Barnes in ahead of Ranaudo right now.

 

We need to develop some young pitchers and maybe in a hurry. Trading Barnes would be very foolhardy, and, like you, I don't see the comparison between Hanley and Starlin. Hanley has power and is a run producer while Castro has little power and a very poor OBA for a 300 hitter. He is also a pretty mediocre fielder and prone to kick the routine play. We have to tred very carefully on any trade along these lines and hope that Epstein doesn't run the tables on his former assistant flunky Cherington who seems more incompetent by the day.

[jacksonianmarch]

Hanley was 23 yrs old when he was dealt to the Marlins. His debut season at age 23, he hit 17 homers . Starlin is 22 this season, and already has 2 full seasons under his belt and is on pace for 12-15 homers this yr.

[Station 13]

Castros isn't what the Sox need. Trading for him means the team still need starting pitching and they gave up their #1 pitching prospect to fill an area that isn't a weakness.

[FredLynn]

Castros isn't what the Sox need. Trading for him means the team still need starting pitching and they gave up their #1 pitching prospect to fill an area that isn't a weakness.

 

You are absolutely right. I expect the trade to be announced this week.

[Palodios]

Castros isn't what the Sox need. Trading for him means the team still need starting pitching and they gave up their #1 pitching prospect to fill an area that isn't a weakness.

 

This.

 

Castro is going to cost a ton, and you're paying for his potential, not for his results. If you're going to give a big haul, why not give it to get a guy that 1) fills a major need for the team, 2) Will help the team now, and 3) Isn't coming from the team whose executives -- Epstein and Hoyer-- will bend over your farm system on its knee and tell it whose its daddy is.

[evilhand]

Hanley was 23 yrs old when he was dealt to the Marlins. His debut season at age 23' date=' he hit 17 homers . Starlin is 22 this season, and already has 2 full seasons under his belt and is on pace for 12-15 homers this yr.[/quote']

 

A small sample size of 1/3 a season does not out weigh his entire minor league career. Hanley has always had power. Castro has not. Hanley walks a decent amount, Castro does not.

 

The only part of the comparison that fits is that they're both butchers in the field and they both have good contact skills.

[TutGadol]

The Castro trade could easily be a lose-lose. When Craw and Els come back there is no where to put him in the lineup, and Barnes will most likely to leave in this kind of trade. Other then Bard, the pitching staff is sort of getting it's s*** together. So if anything, trade position prospects and maybe Cook for a decent starter who can complete the rotation and get Bard to the bullpen. I'm just hoping the FO didn't ruin Bard completely by not ending this experiment earlier.

[a700hitter]

The Castro trade could easily be a lose-lose. When Craw and Els come back there is no where to put him in the lineup' date=' and Barnes will most likely to leave in this kind of trade. Other then Bard, the pitching staff is sort of getting it's s*** together. So if anything, trade position prospects and maybe Cook for a decent starter who can complete the rotation and get Bard to the bullpen. I'm just hoping the FO didn't ruin Bard completely by not ending this experiment earlier.[/quote']I wouldn't trade Barnes for this head case. Maybe Renaudo.

[SoxSport]

Castros isn't what the Sox need. Trading for him means the team still need starting pitching and they gave up their #1 pitching prospect to fill an area that isn't a weakness.

 

Good observation. Gonzo and Crawford have hurt this team so far. They did not address needs and took up valuable salary. Epstein figured he could move Youks to 3B, but that has been disastrous for Youks.

[mvp 78]

Getting old has been disastrous to Youk. I don't think playing 3b caused it.

[FredLynn]

Getting old has been disastrous to Youk. I don't think playing 3b caused it.

 

Playing third base is much tougher on the body than playing first base. With Youk's body type its even more demanding. While the switch isn't totally responsible for his physical breakdown, it has certainly played a role.

[mvp 78]

His 2010 injury was caused by playing 3b?

[FredLynn]

His 2010 injury was caused by playing 3b?

 

Did he play 3B in 2010?

[a700hitter]

Red Sox Prioritizing Starting Pitching Depth

By Mike Axisa [June 4 at 8:12am CST]

 

The Red Sox are prioritizing starting pitching depth leading up to the trade deadline, reports WEEI.com's Rob Bradford. Boston's rotation came into today with a 4.53 ERA that ranks 28th out of the 30 big league clubs.

 

Although Daisuke Matsuzaka (Tommy John surgery) and Aaron Cook (laceration) are currently rehabbing their way back to the club, Daniel Bard's five-run, five-out outing yesterday ballooned his ERA to 5.24 in ten starts and one relief appearance. He has more walks (37) than strikeouts (34). Southpaw Felix Doubront (3.76 ERA) is the club's only starter with an ERA below 4.25.

 

Ross Ohlendorf recently opted out of his minor league contract with the Red Sox after pitching to a 4.61 ERA with 6.3 K/9 and 2.6 BB/9 in 52 2/3 innings for their Triple-A affiliate.

This is a reality check-- 28th out of 30. It is why we are in last place. We can stomp our feet about not being a last place team, but that's where we are, and if the pitching situation doesn't improve, we will be treading water in the division. 28th out of 30 is horrendously bad after 1/3 of the season. It is worse than I had feared it would be.

[mvp 78]

Did he play 3B in 2010?

 

2 very hard games. Must've been then!

[FredLynn]

2 very hard games. Must've been then!

 

Oh, I forgot. The fact that he was also injured playing first base rules out any connection between the move to third base being connected to his more recent injuries. My bad.

[Bellhorn04]

Oh' date=' I forgot. The fact that he was also injured playing first base rules out any connection between the move to third base being connected to his more recent injuries. My bad.[/quote']

 

Put it this way: can you connect any of his injury issues to playing 3B?

[mvp 78]

Oh' date=' I forgot. The fact that he was also injured playing first base rules out any connection between the move to third base being connected to his more recent injuries. My bad.[/quote']

 

Well he was on the shelf after only a few games in 2012. Must've been the rigorous few games at 3b!

[SoxFanForsyth]

This is a reality check-- 28th out of 30. It is why we are in last place. We can stomp our feet about not being a last place team' date=' but that's where we are, and if the pitching situation doesn't improve, we will be treading water in the division. 28th out of 30 is horrendously bad after 1/3 of the season. It is worse than I had feared it would be.[/quote']

 

It IS improving. SP is the reason this team is only 3 games out, not 9 games out.

 

From the article you referenced by Rob Bradford:

 

It is starting pitching that got the Red Sox back in the conversation, with Bobby Valentine's staff carrying a 6.01 ERA while starting the season at 12-19. Since then, however, it has stabilized, entering Bard's latest start with the third-best starters' ERA in the American League (3.99), while going 13-6 and totaling the second-most innings in the AL (140) as a group.

 

They started horribly, but have rebounded very nicely. Give them time. The start of the season manipulates the total data, so they look much worse than they really are right now.

[a700hitter]

It IS improving. SP is the reason this team is only 3 games out, not 9 games out.

 

From the article you referenced by Rob Bradford:

 

 

 

They started horribly, but have rebounded very nicely. Give them time. The start of the season manipulates the total data, so they look much worse than they really are right now.

I agree that it is trending in the right direction, but 28 out of 30 at the one-third mark is horrendously bad and our place in the standings is reflective of it. If the pitching continues to trend in the right direction ending up in the middle of the pack, the offense should be able to drive this team up in the standings. However, if the pitching stays in the bottom third, they will be in trouble. Developing Bard is not a luxury they can afford.

[FredLynn]

Put it this way: can you connect any of his injury issues to playing 3B?

 

Not directly, but its pretty clear that 3B is a more demanding position to play compared to first base. Its not the whole story-simply getting older is part of it too. However, I do think it has played a role and will continue to play a role in his injury proclivity.

[FredLynn]

Well he was on the shelf after only a few games in 2012. Must've been the rigorous few games at 3b!

 

In 2011 he played 112 games at 3B. Thats a lot of time there when you are overweight and out of shape.

[FredLynn]

Since then, however, it has stabilized, entering Bard's latest start with the third-best starters' ERA in the American League (3.99), while going 13-6 and totaling the second-most innings in the AL (140) as a group.

 

This is really the most important consideration. Obviously our SP sucked for the first 30 games or so. But it has come around. The key is for the SP to keep improving and be consistently good from here on out, not what they did before, because even though they were horrible early on, we are still in the race. Our competition failed to bury us when they had the opportunity to do it.

[a700hitter]

This is really the most important consideration. Obviously our SP sucked for the first 30 games or so. But it has come around. The key is for the SP to keep improving and be consistently good from here on out, not what they did before, because even though they were horrible early on, we are still in the race. Our competition failed to bury us when they had the opportunity to do it.

This is completely true.