So how about Daniel Nava?

[Bellhorn04]

Semperfi is right. That is exactly what will happen. You know it and so does everyone else. Doesn't mean its the right way to win the most games' date=' but its what WILL happen.[/quote']

 

Funny, I could have sworn it was Middlebrooks playing third base last night.

[SoxFanForsyth]

It's been a different story for Youkilis.

 

Youkilis also has been hurt since last July, and Middlebrooks has been well documented as a top prospect. He was known, coming into this season, as the future of the organization, and Youk's contract is up this year. Also, Youkilis right now is not nearly the player that Crawford is. Youk is old, hobbling, and has lost significant bat speed.

 

That's a bad comparison.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Semperfi is right. That is exactly what will happen. You know it and so does everyone else. Doesn't mean its the right way to win the most games' date=' but its what WILL happen.[/quote']

 

I'm sorry.

 

Are you guys actually going to sit here and tell me that Nava is a better player than Carl Crawford??

 

Has it really come to this?? My dear God. This is pathetic.

[Bellhorn04]

Youkilis also has been hurt since last July, and Middlebrooks has been well documented as a top prospect. He was known, coming into this season, as the future of the organization, and Youk's contract is up this year. Also, Youkilis right now is not nearly the player that Crawford is. Youk is old, hobbling, and has lost significant bat speed.

 

That's a bad comparison.

 

Crawford hasn't exactly been the picture of health, productivity, good technique, or any other positive traits these 1.5 years.

[Bellhorn04]

I'm sorry.

 

Are you guys actually going to sit here and tell me that Nava is a better player than Carl Crawford??

 

Has it really come to this?? My dear God. This is pathetic.

 

Crawford was flat horrible for an entire season and now injured for half another season. There are good reasons to be concerned about him.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Crawford hasn't exactly been the picture of health' date=' productivity, good technique, or any other positive traits these 1.5 years.[/quote']

 

He's not broken down, though. And his injuries are not recurring injuries like Youk's back/hip.

 

Tell me something. Lets say that Adrian Gonzalez goes on the 15 day DL. Lars Anderson comes up and hits .330/.410/.520 with 4 HR, most of which is fueled by a .400+ BABIP. Would you play Lars instead of Gonzalez when Gonzo returns?

[SoxFanForsyth]

Crawford was flat horrible for an entire season and now injured for half another season. There are good reasons to be concerned about him.

 

Not nearly concerned enough to merit having him sit 3-4x per week for Nava. That's so unbelievably ridiculous I cannot fathom how it makes any sense to anyone.

 

Its just, I just....my God. I cannot fathom this thought process. I really can't.

[BornToRun]

He's not broken down, though. And his injuries are not recurring injuries like Youk's back/hip.

 

Tell me something. Lets say that Adrian Gonzalez goes on the 15 day DL. Lars Anderson comes up and hits .330/.410/.520 with 4 HR, most of which is fueled by a .400+ BABIP. Would you play Lars instead of Gonzalez when Gonzo returns?

 

My bet is that you won't like the answer to this question when you get it.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Crawford clearly struggled last season, but I'm sorry, it's absolutely idiotic to really think that a player goes from 7th in the MVP voting, gold glove, silver slugger, ASG starter to a .255 hitter overnight.

 

That's not how it works. It's just mind boggling.

[SemperFi Sox]

I'm sorry.

 

Are you guys actually going to sit here and tell me that Nava is a better player than Carl Crawford??

Has it really come to this?? My dear God. This is pathetic.

 

Not me.

[SoxFanForsyth]

My bet is that you won't like the answer to this question when you get it.

 

No. If the answer is Lars Anderson then I just give up on the intelligence of some of the posters.

 

Odd that it's taken this long though, no?

[Bellhorn04]

He's not broken down, though. And his injuries are not recurring injuries like Youk's back/hip.

 

Tell me something. Lets say that Adrian Gonzalez goes on the 15 day DL. Lars Anderson comes up and hits .330/.410/.520 with 4 HR, most of which is fueled by a .400+ BABIP. Would you play Lars instead of Gonzalez when Gonzo returns?

 

No, but I have a lot more faith in Gonzalez to turn it around than I do Crawford. Gonzo already put up a solid season here.

 

I've already said Crawford gets his job back. I just don't want Nava traded. If Crawford doesn't get it back together fairly quickly, he's going to be a real problem.

[Bellhorn04]

Crawford clearly struggled last season, but I'm sorry, it's absolutely idiotic to really think that a player goes from 7th in the MVP voting, gold glove, silver slugger, ASG starter to a .255 hitter overnight.

 

That's not how it works. It's just mind boggling.

 

Now you're really overstating your case. What you just described has most certainly happened.

[Bellhorn04]

Crawford clearly struggled last season, but I'm sorry, it's absolutely idiotic to really think that a player goes from 7th in the MVP voting, gold glove, silver slugger, ASG starter to a .255 hitter overnight.

 

That's not how it works. It's just mind boggling.

 

As a matter of fact, Jason Bay was 7th in MVP voting in 2009, silver slugger, ASG starter. He's hitting .246 for the Mets.

[SemperFi Sox]

citing gold gloves and all star starts doesn't give a point more merit.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Now you're really overstating your case. What you just described has most certainly happened.

 

When?!? Youkilis? He was hurt for 1/2 of 2010 and never returned to form. His poor season was due to injuries.

 

Crawford's poor season was due to him trying to overperform and play outside of his means. Same as Adam Dunn. Probably the same as Adrian Gonzalez.

 

We agree that Nava shouldn't be traded, I think his value to the Red Sox exceeds his trade value, in which case you hang on to him.

 

But Crawford is better than Nava in every facet of the game outside of BB%. That's it.

 

I mean, in 09-10, Crawford hit .306/.360/.473, averaged 17 HR, 80 RBI, 30 Doubles, 10 Triples, and 55 SB.

 

That's the guy we signed. He still has the ability to be that guy. That guy is a better player than Daniel Nava. That guy is an elite player. And that's Carl Crawford.

[SoxFanForsyth]

citing gold gloves and all star starts doesn't give a point more merit.

 

It does when the player plays for TB.

[SoxFanForsyth]

As a matter of fact' date=' Jason Bay was 7th in MVP voting in 2009, silver slugger, ASG starter. He's hitting .246 for the Mets.[/quote']

 

Citi Field =/= Fenway Park.

 

By any means. Plus Bay has battled concussions his entire time in NY, and has not ever lost his spot.

 

And, Bay is an aberration, not the rule.

[example1]

I have to agree' date=' Dojji. Nava's got a 2.0 WAR in 30 games, Crawdads had a 0.0 WAR in 2011, anyone can see that Nava is helping us win games, and a lot of people are going 'Sell high! Sell high!'. I think these message boards really bring out the armchair GM in all of us, me included. Sometimes the overthink is pretty funny.[/quote']

 

A big group of people were saying that Nava was a worth POS just a month ago. I wasn't among them.

 

I'm just saying, if Nava could go as a part of a deal for Garza, Kalish could step in and provide the same or better production, Crawford (a guy who isn't going anywhere) returns, Ellsbury returns, and you have Crawford, Ellsbury, Ross, Kalish and Sweeney as your OFs, PLUS Garza added to the rotation, I wouldn't be unhappy about it.

 

I like Nava. I really do. I'm not advocating that they trade him just to trade him. My point is that this team, for all of the s*** thrown at the FO, happens to have a group of OFs who are good/deserving of playing time right now. If another team has more use for Nava and can include a significant boost to the Sox in an area where they are lacking, I would happily sell high on Nava's recent success.

 

Yes, Nava is helping them win games right now. He will also either be taking playing time from Kalish/Ross, or sent back down to AAA once Crawford and Ellsbury are back. That's just the undeniable fact. Unless they can do something with Crawford, it seems wise to see what the interest is in Nava.

[lospunchados]

When?!? Youkilis? He was hurt for 1/2 of 2010 and never returned to form. His poor season was due to injuries.

 

Crawford's poor season was due to him trying to overperform and play outside of his means. Same as Adam Dunn. Probably the same as Adrian Gonzalez.

 

We agree that Nava shouldn't be traded, I think his value to the Red Sox exceeds his trade value, in which case you hang on to him.

 

But Crawford is better than Nava in every facet of the game outside of BB%. That's it.

 

I mean, in 09-10, Crawford hit .306/.360/.473, averaged 17 HR, 80 RBI, 30 Doubles, 10 Triples, and 55 SB.

 

That's the guy we signed. He still has the ability to be that guy. That guy is a better player than Daniel Nava. That guy is an elite player. And that's Carl Crawford.

 

Crawford should outperform Nava in every facet of the game ( though to be fair we don't know what kind of arm strength he will have with a whole new throwing motion, and coming back from elbow surgery), but Nava has had a great obp and is reminiscent of the old philosophy of the team, guys who take pitches and get on base.

 

I don't think he should take Crawfords place but i think with the strong possibility of Youk leaving Nava needs to find at least a couple of games a week because other than Ortiz the walks aren't happening very often on this team (Gonzalez went May 15 to June 11th without a walk).

 

Expecting the 2009/2010 Crawford is pretty unrealistic. I hope he can keep around 15 plus homer power but the sb's are going down. By the 09/10 seasons he wasn't the guy who just took bases at will no matter who was pitching or catching, he destroyed the bad teams ( ie 21 steals in 35 games against the sox , and 86 in 289 games against everyone else). I'm not saying he can't still get a bunch of steals but 55 seems highly unlikely especially since he went 21 for 21 against the sox and 86 steals and 21 caught stealings against everyone else.

 

Should crawford be closer to the 2010 numbers than 2011, Absolutely, and hopefully, for the sake of the team he will be.

[jung]

You guys are all assuming that the Sox will hold CC out until he is ready to play every day and I doubt that will be the case. I suspect that they will work him in because they will want to get him going before he is ready for everyday play. Hence I think they will play both players if Nava is still playing well.

 

For one thing I think they will want to get him out there before he is really ready to throw from the outfield but will want Aviles to meet throws in the outfield. That will get Crawford seeing ML pitching before he is really ready to play full time.

 

If they do hold CC out till he is ready for everyday play then I think you will see Nava in Center again presuming he is still helping the team win games with Kalish and Ross platooning in Right.

 

I don't they will just insert CC into every day play right off the bat....particularly if Nava is still helping them win games.

[Bellhorn04]

You guys are all assuming that the Sox will hold CC out until he is ready to play every day and I doubt that will be the case. I suspect that they will work him in because they will want to get him going before he is ready for everyday play. Hence I think they will play both players if Nava is still playing well.

 

For one thing I think they will want to get him out there before he is really ready to throw from the outfield but will want Aviles to meet throws in the outfield. That will get Crawford seeing ML pitching before he is really ready to play full time.

 

If they do hold CC out till he is ready for everyday play then I think you will see Nava in Center again presuming he is still helping the team win games with Kalish and Ross platooning in Right.

 

I don't they will just insert CC into every day play right off the bat....particularly if Nava is still helping them win games.

 

Valentine seems to be a fairly adept lineup juggler...he's had plenty of practice at it already this year.

[Bellhorn04]

Crawford should outperform Nava in every facet of the game ( though to be fair we don't know what kind of arm strength he will have with a whole new throwing motion, and coming back from elbow surgery), but Nava has had a great obp and is reminiscent of the old philosophy of the team, guys who take pitches and get on base.

 

I don't think he should take Crawfords place but i think with the strong possibility of Youk leaving Nava needs to find at least a couple of games a week because other than Ortiz the walks aren't happening very often on this team (Gonzalez went May 15 to June 11th without a walk).

 

Expecting the 2009/2010 Crawford is pretty unrealistic. I hope he can keep around 15 plus homer power but the sb's are going down. By the 09/10 seasons he wasn't the guy who just took bases at will no matter who was pitching or catching, he destroyed the bad teams ( ie 21 steals in 35 games against the sox , and 86 in 289 games against everyone else). I'm not saying he can't still get a bunch of steals but 55 seems highly unlikely especially since he went 21 for 21 against the sox and 86 steals and 21 caught stealings against everyone else.

 

Should crawford be closer to the 2010 numbers than 2011, Absolutely, and hopefully, for the sake of the team he will be.

 

Nice number crunching on the steals.

[seabeachfred]

I'm sorry.

 

Are you guys actually going to sit here and tell me that Nava is a better player than Carl Crawford??

 

Has it really come to this?? My dear God. This is pathetic.

 

Forsyth, the fact is that Nava is a better player THIS year for us than Crawford was LAST year for us. Face it, Carl was a plane crash last season--at bat, in the field and on the bases. He really stunk. At their best Crawford is a better ballplayer but when he comes back he had better start producing and not show us that last year's rotten performance was an indicator of things to come. I also wonder if he cannot play in Boston; there are a lot of players who have proven that over the years that they cannot handle the critical press and demanding fans. Let's also be honest about things. The Crawford signing was not in our team's best interests because we signed a clone of Ellsbury who didn't have the power or speed that Jacoby had. I also means that Jacoby is as good as gone after 2013, if not sooner.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Forsyth' date=' the fact is that Nava is a better player THIS year for us than Crawford was LAST year for us. Face it, Carl was a plane crash last season--at bat, in the field and on the bases. He really stunk. At their best Crawford is a better ballplayer but when he comes back he had better start producing and not show us that last year's rotten performance was an indicator of things to come. I also wonder if he cannot play in Boston; there are a lot of players who have proven that over the years that they cannot handle the critical press and demanding fans. Let's also be honest about things. The Crawford signing was not in our team's best interests because we signed a clone of Ellsbury who didn't have the power or speed that Jacoby had. I also means that Jacoby is as good as gone after 2013, if not sooner.[/quote']

 

You cannot, cannot, cannot, cannot, can NOT sit a guy who has a proven track record of being an elite player for a guy who has had a brilliant 2 month hot streak, based heavily on a .400 BABIP.

 

You just can't. It's ridiculous and that's now how you win consistently.

 

Look, is Crawford going to be a 55+ SB guy again? Eh, I'd peg him at around 45 in a given year. It's not like he's turned into a 20 SB guy though. People are completely overstating how much Crawford's speed has diminished.

 

Crawford can easily still be a .300/.350/.465 hitter with 30 2B, 10 3B, 15 HR, 40+ SB, and 100+ runs. That's not at all a reach for this guy.

 

I cannot wait for Crawford to come back, be the Crawford of old, maybe not the 2010 Crawford but easily could be the 2009 Crawford with a few less SB.

 

This is a guy who you should slot in the 2 hole and just watch him go nuts because he can and will drive pitchers nuts. Crawford and Ellsbury are the kinds of players who turn 1 run losses into 1 run wins because of their legs and the aggressiveness on the basepaths.

 

They swipe bags. They go 1st to 3rd on singles. They score from 1st on a wall ball double. They make pitchers slide step and make a mistake pitch to big hitters. There is a ton of things that guys like Crawford and Ellsbury do well that doesn't show up in the OBP column.

[jung]

The play of the super subs is what is in part what is allowing the Sox to take their time with guys like CC and Ells.

 

I simply do not see the Sox rushing CC back into every day play especially since he is clearly slow recovering his ability to throw. I think they will want him to see some ML pitching and I also think they will want him to ease his way back into playing Fenway's left field before he is fully ready to throw from there and that will mean putting him into games before he is ready to play every day.

 

That might also provide a soft landing for CC into the lineup. He will not have the same sort of pressures that he succumbed to last year hanging over his head every day. Need I remind us that he never really beat those pressures last year but instead just kept playing worse until finally he could no longer field as well as hit!

 

While we all seem to be ready to accept that he succumbed to those pressures last year I for one am not willing to accept that he can and will beat them this year. I would prefer to see him eased back into the lineup since we already have the result for simply throwing him into the deep end of the pool. We threw him into the deep end of the pool last year. I have no interest in repeating that experience. The only difference is that we had games in hand last year and could afford to play CC every day regardless of how well he played.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The play of the super subs is what is in part what is allowing the Sox to take their time with guys like CC and Ells.

 

I simply do not see the Sox rushing CC back into every day play especially since he is clearly slow recovering his ability to throw. I think they will want him to see some ML pitching and I also think they will want him to ease his way back into playing Fenway's left field before he is fully ready to throw from there and that will mean putting him into games before he is ready to play every day.

 

That might also provide a soft landing for CC into the lineup. He will not have the same sort of pressures that he succumbed to last year hanging over his head every day. Need I remind us that he never really beat those pressures last year but instead just kept playing worse until finally he could no longer field as well as hit!

 

While we all seem to be ready to accept that he succumbed to those pressures last year I for one am not willing to accept that he can and will beat them this year. I would prefer to see him eased back into the lineup since we already have the result for simply throwing him into the deep end of the pool. We threw him into the deep end of the pool last year. I have no interest in repeating that experience. The only difference is that we had games in hand last year and could afford to play CC every day regardless of how well he played.

 

I don't understand this philosophy. It's not like he's got a torn hammy, or something that he could really aggravate by playing too much. The wrist is completely healed. The elbow is fine when he's hitting. He should be in there everyday, no question about it.

 

Now, if you want to argue that he should come back for the Yankees series right before the ASB, play Friday, 1/2 on the Saturday doubleheader, and then on Sunday, I can 100% agree. You get your timing, you get a breather, and then you take off.

 

But I don't think they baby him. Just like they're not babying Cody Ross, didn't baby Ryan Sweeney, didn't baby Ryan Kalish. Once he's back, they'll cut him loose. The more AB's he gets, the quicker he gets his timing.

[redsoxrules]

You cannot, cannot, cannot, cannot, can NOT sit a guy who has a proven track record of being an elite player for a guy who has had a brilliant 2 month hot streak, based heavily on a .400 BABIP.

 

You just can't. It's ridiculous and that's now how you win consistently.

 

Look, is Crawford going to be a 55+ SB guy again? Eh, I'd peg him at around 45 in a given year. It's not like he's turned into a 20 SB guy though. People are completely overstating how much Crawford's speed has diminished.

 

Crawford can easily still be a .300/.350/.465 hitter with 30 2B, 10 3B, 15 HR, 40+ SB, and 100+ runs. That's not at all a reach for this guy.

 

I cannot wait for Crawford to come back, be the Crawford of old, maybe not the 2010 Crawford but easily could be the 2009 Crawford with a few less SB.

 

This is a guy who you should slot in the 2 hole and just watch him go nuts because he can and will drive pitchers nuts. Crawford and Ellsbury are the kinds of players who turn 1 run losses into 1 run wins because of their legs and the aggressiveness on the basepaths.

 

They swipe bags. They go 1st to 3rd on singles. They score from 1st on a wall ball double. They make pitchers slide step and make a mistake pitch to big hitters. There is a ton of things that guys like Crawford and Ellsbury do well that doesn't show up in the OBP column.

 

I wouldn't be so sure. He doesn't even average that for his career

[SoxFanForsyth]

I wouldn't be so sure. He doesn't even average that for his career

 

He's also not 20 anymore. And from the time he was 23 on, which is when a normal player would start his career, he's hitting .302/.347/.463. Then he had a terrible year.

[kapsis21]

He's also not 20 anymore. And from the time he was 23 on' date=' which is when a normal player would start his career, he's hitting .302/.347/.463. Then he had a terrible year.[/quote']

 

until he can prove himself fact is he has looked completely out of place in Redsox uniform.

he did have some good games here and there but struggled all thru last year.

 

having a career of .302 doesnt mean he will continue to be that way, need to work at it. and hopefully he has straightened out his swing/stance.

but as of now Nava is riding a hot streak and you dont want to discontinue that.. plain and simple

Youk is getting sit for WMB

if Crawford comes back and starts a 2-30 AB he might as well get back on the bench and let Nava play. its sad how money has driven this game from what it should be. f***ing Yankees