The Blame Game

[FredLynn]

Right now Tazaawa is the only one out in the pen who hasn't sucked. The big question is can you trust anyone out there now. Cherrington doesn't want to move Bard to the pen. You have got to wonder whether Ben is "stuck on stupid"

 

Tazawa has pitched in two games. Granted, he has been very effective. I am not sure we can judge this guy based on such a small sample size. IMO he gets an imcomplete; promising, but incomplete. Even if he ends up being excellent for us, how often can you go to the well with him?

[RedSoxRally]

Pumpsie Green....I agree all the way. Tazawa has pitched in 2 games for a total of 3.1 innings and to read too much into it is taking too big of a leap.

[kapsis21]

I really wonder if they will have the balls to tell Bard to go back to the pen if or when Cook is brought up.

 

Also, how do they make room for cook on the roster? Repko will be put on a DL to make room for Byrd.

 

Who goes next?

 

Dmac

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I look back at some of the guys who jumped ship' date=' like Jason Bay and Victor Martinez...they probably had enough of the dysfunction and wanted out. It's only a matter of time until Ellsbury jumps too.[b']You look at Epstein's RIDICULOUS signings....John Lackey.....had we waited a year, we could have signed Cliff Lee[/b].

 

Lol. You people have the audacity to throw things like this out, while at the same time screaming like a smoldering iron was shoved up your ass whenever the Red Sox don't sign somebody.

 

I almost feel bad for Valentine, he's walked into a situation that is beyond his ability to fix. The rot is too deep. The dysfunction too profound.

 

That's kinda like saying it's beyond Stephen Hawking's ability to walk five feet. It may be true, but it doesn't set the bar very high.

[Gringo]

Lol. You people have the audacity to throw things like this out' date=' while at the same time screaming like a smoldering iron was shoved up your ass whenever the Red Sox [i']don't[/i] sign somebody.

 

 

 

That's kinda like saying it's beyond Stephen Hawking's ability to walk five feet. It may be true, but it doesn't set the bar very high.

 

Did you bother to read the entire post, smart guy?

 

Do me a favor and don't cherry pick my posts in order to make it convenient for you to fire off lame insults.

 

I said they spend too freely at times, and then not freely enough other times, with the primary complaint being that those big signings weren't even good ones.

[redsoxfan3]

Let's all blame the manager for not performing well on the field. That is stupid. He can only make managerial decisions based on what he has to work with. If the results are not there, then that is the players that are at fault. We might as well blame the media as well for them always being so negative and making remarks that we are continuing where we left off from last season. Stop blaming people. It is stupid.

[SoxSport]

Pumpsie Green....I agree all the way. Tazawa has pitched in 2 games for a total of 3.1 innings and to read too much into it is taking too big of a leap.

 

Have you seen Tazawa pitch? He has some of the best stuff and location on the staff right now--that I've seen.

[SoxSport]

Let's all blame the manager for not performing well on the field. That is stupid. He can only make managerial decisions based on what he has to work with. If the results are not there' date=' then that is the players that are at fault. We might as well blame the media as well for them always being so negative and making remarks that we are continuing where we left off from last season. Stop blaming people. It is stupid.[/quote']

 

 

Bobby V lost that game yesterday by taking out Doubront too soon. That's blaming the manager. And it's hardly stupid.

[Elktonnick]

Bobby V lost that game yesterday by taking out Doubront too soon. That's blaming the manager. And it's hardly stupid.

 

So Doubront was going to complete the game. The relievers gave up 7 runs in the 7th ans 7 again in the 8th. That's nonsense. If the pen can't hold an 8 run lead with 9 outs can you trust them tomorrow night or ever. Get real it isn't about last night's game. That's a "strawman". The bullpen sucks. Just as well that everyone see it for what it is. Cherrington didn't make one effective move over the winter to improve pitching. Worse he let Weaver get away.

[jacksonianmarch]

You cannot fault V for taking out Doubront. He was at 99 pitches. He's effectively a rookie pitcher coming off an injury plagued season and he dominated a great lineup. You have an 8 run lead and you want the kid to leave feeling good about himself to build off that performance. Even the worst pens should hold an 8 run lead through 3 innings.

[RedSoxRally]

What a coincidence, I have seen his stuff as well. My point is that 2 good outings in the first 14 games is an encouraging and I want to see more before it's decided he's the end-all be-all of bullpen help for the Red Sox. As the season wares on he will continue to get better and I look forward to it.

[jung]

Pitch counts are another form of the same ******** as 7 run limits. While this is pure conjecture, if they had gotten one inning closer, V might have brought Tazawa instead of Padilla, his acknowledge long reliever.

 

I have never believed in this pitch count ******** or anything like it except in instructional leagues. When your starting pitcher is the best option you have, you don't have a choice. Doubront was still pitching well...he was not being as fine because he was pitching with a 9 run lead and would have come out for the next inning with an 8 run lead. This bullpen has already been proven to be full of arsonists. Neither we nor V needed yesterday's game to prove that. Tazawa is the only guy all be it on a small sample size that you can have any confidence in. At least he has great stuff.

 

I have to admit while the horse was pretty close to outta' the barn for all intents and purposes, that is the first time I have seen Aviles pitch panic stricken before. I have never seen him aim the ball before and aiming the ball is in all honesty the equivalent of a choke job by the pitcher.

[jung]

Another thing I worry about off of last night's disaster is the actual condition of Padilla. There has been no indication that he has recovered from his recent injury as yet (a groin pull I believe). Maybe he should not have taken the ball at all last night. He was held out over that issue the very last time V wanted to use him.

 

If anybody sees anything on Padilla and that injury it would be good to see where he is at present.

[FredLynn]

Have you seen Tazawa pitch? He has some of the best stuff and location on the staff right now--that I've seen.

 

I have seen Tazawa once this year, and in his two outings he has had good location, movement, and velocity. Padilla also looked pretty good at one point. I hope he works out well, but I am reserving judgement on him until I see more of him.

As for Valentine having to leave Doubront in the game because he doesn't trust his pen to hold an eight run lead, thats pretty sad. I can't think of any other reason to leave him in there at 99 pitches with the season so young. Doubront is probably not going to toss 200 innings, or even 180this year. Its his first year as a SP in the majors, and these kinds of guys are usually limited in terms of how many innings he can pitch. I think it was perfectly reasonable to turn it over to the pen....except that our pen isn't reasonable.

[jung]

The pen is not reasonable but that was not a revelation from last night's game. If V went to Padilla (who has an injury) because he did not want to use Tazawa for more than one inning (the 8th) then another inning out of Doubront would have gotten him to Tazawa.

 

It is a shame to have to use a starting pitcher because you have no faith in your bullpen but it would not have been a crime to send Doubront out there and at the same time get somebody up so that if he got into even the slightest jam he could be pulled.

 

The simple truth is that with a pen full of arsonists, the best option he had was the guy already pitching at least for that inning and especially if that is what it would have taken to get to Tazawa.

 

May not have worked...all conjecture anyway and last but not least may not even matter. The Sox have much housecleaning to do. Expecting them to make a legitimate run under the circumstances has seemed like wishful thinking for a long time now regardless of how early it is this season.

 

I think some of us have looked at things and called them questions not because they are really questions but because we just don't like the answers so far.

 

I am convinced this team will eventually make some moves this season. Hopefully they will be moves that will help it look better this year and help it set up for next year.

[SoxSport]

Cafardo says this morning the players aren't getting enough of the blame:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2012/04/23/red_sox_players_arent_catching_much_flak___and_they_should/?page=2

 

I don't know if I would agree with this. He says some of the players should have changed after last September. Well, how do you do that with guaranteed contracts? You can't eat big salaries, and you can trade them either. What you could do is maybe change the face of the lineup by bringing in young upstarts like Lavarnway and Iglesias. But management chose not to do that. They basically went with the status quo. So whose fault is it?

 

 

When a team goes bad, the fault is usually at the top. It starts with Henry and Lucchino, and works its way down to the front office to the manager and the coaches. They make the decisions and set the tone.

 

The local media has chosen to take sides--picking on the players and Lucchino, and recently on the manager, Bobby V. There has been little criticism of Cherington and the front office, nor of Francona when he left. Though the Globe did publish some private stuff on Tito's medical history, which probably had nothing to do with his managing downfall.

 

Cafardo's column seems to shift the blame back onto the players, which was an original Globe theme.

But it's not the players who decide the roster, and who plays where. And it wasn't the players who didn't immediately plug the closer hole with the obvious choice--Bard--which they are coming around to finally.

And it wasn't the players who lost the Yankee game Saturday by taking the starter out too soon.

[Elktonnick]

Cafardo says this morning the players aren't getting enough of the blame:

 

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2012/04/23/red_sox_players_arent_catching_much_flak___and_they_should/?page=2

 

I don't know if I would agree with this. He says some of the players should have changed after last September. Well, how do you do that with guaranteed contracts? You can't eat big salaries, and you can trade them either. What you could do is maybe change the face of the lineup by bringing in young upstarts like Lavarnway and Iglesias. But management chose not to do that. They basically went with the status quo. So whose fault is it?

 

 

When a team goes bad, the fault is usually at the top. It starts with Henry and Lucchino, and works its way down to the front office to the manager and the coaches. They make the decisions and set the tone.

 

The local media has chosen to take sides--picking on the players and Lucchino, and recently on the manager, Bobby V. There has been little criticism of Cherington and the front office, nor of Francona when he left. Though the Globe did publish some private stuff on Tito's medical history, which probably had nothing to do with his managing downfall.

 

Cafardo's column seems to shift the blame back onto the players, which was an original Globe theme.

But it's not the players who decide the roster, and who plays where. And it wasn't the players who didn't immediately plug the closer hole with the obvious choice--Bard--which they are coming around to finally.

And it wasn't the players who lost the Yankee game Saturday by taking the starter out too soon.

 

That is just pure nonsense. They lost because their bull pen couldn't hold an 8 run lead. They obviously were holding Doubront to a pitch count of about 100 pitches. It's April, if your bull pen can't hold an 8 run lead in April then it isn't the manager's fault but the GM's fault because of the crap he signed, during off season. This trying to place blame on the manager when 99.9% of managers would have done the same is simply nuts.

[jung]

Well you can't simply ignore the fact that the players have played stupid, selfish, and piss poor baseball. For example, they have been extremely impatient at the plate going up there hackin' at first pitches constantly. Notice if you will that the Saturday game was one of the few in awhile where they were actually patient at the plate for once (I suspect the result of the players getting together and recognizing that as an issue). This offense particularly without Ells and CC is not good enough to allow starting pitchers to stay in games. They must drive up pitch counts and get to bullpens. Once they get to pens they must remain patient and wait to get a good pitch to hit. However even on Saturday, once the lead reached 9 runs they reverted to their usual hack away process at the plate and patience went out the window again. They are just not committed to it. They have scored 17 runs in the last 5 games including the 9 they scored on Saturday. They will not win many games scoring a bit over 3 runs per game.

 

While the relief pitching has been terrible, the starting pitching with the exception of the 4 and and the 5 has not been great maybe mediocre is an apt description.

 

The entire management of this team deserves a good bit of the criticism for the huge expenditures of money in bogus signings, poor decisions all over the place, the decision to hire V which is backfiring in a big way, the inability to control communications within their own management personnel which in effect means control themselves so that they could at least speak with one voice to the outside world and not wear their dysfunctional tendencies on their sleeves.

 

In the first place you cannot in my opinion, segregate Red Sox Baseball Operations including the GM from executive management because the GM is really micromanaged by LL regardless of who he is. So I think you can divide the groups into All Management and FO, field management and coaches and then the players.

 

I think Management and FO gets 35% of the blame for doing such a poor job of handling the financial assets of the organization, personnel decisions including FA signings, the hiring of the wrong guy to manage, V and doing so for all the wrong reasons, they way they have handled their new GM and for the Machiavellian atmosphere they have created around the departure of Tito and Theo and the hiring of V. I think the players get 45% of the blame for playing like s***, for not even being able to pull together and play like a team and for generally acting like a bunch of spoiled rotten *******s. I think the Manager and Coaches get 15% of the blame for not even being able to make rudimentary decisions correctly and not really understanding how to use their players. Some of the issues there are clearly related to the fact that none of the coaching staff are V guys save one I believe. Frankly even 15% to the coaching staff may be a bit much when you consider you poorly the players have played and how badly management and the FO has performed.

[Elktonnick]

Well you can't simply ignore the fact that the players have played stupid, selfish, and piss poor baseball. For example, they have been extremely impatient at the plate going up there hackin' at first pitches constantly. Notice if you will that the Saturday game was one of the few in awhile where they were actually patient at the plate for once (I suspect the result of the players getting together and recognizing that as an issue). This offense particularly without Ells and CC is not good enough to allow starting pitchers to stay in games. They must drive up pitch counts and get to bullpens. Once they get to pens they must remain patient and wait to get a good pitch to hit. However even on Saturday, once the lead reached 9 runs they reverted to their usual hack away process at the plate and patience went out the window again. They are just not committed to it. They have scored 17 runs in the last 5 games including the 9 they scored on Saturday. They will not win many games scoring a bit over 3 runs per game.

 

While the relief pitching has been terrible, the starting pitching with the exception of the 4 and and the 5 has not been great maybe mediocre is an apt description.

 

The entire management of this team deserves a good bit of the criticism for the huge expenditures of money in bogus signings, poor decisions all over the place, the decision to hire V which is backfiring in a big way, the inability to control communications within their own management personnel which in effect means control themselves so that they could at least speak with one voice to the outside world and not wear their dysfunctional tendencies on their sleeves.

 

In the first place you cannot in my opinion, segregate Red Sox Baseball Operations including the GM from executive management because the GM is really micromanaged by LL regardless of who he is. So I think you can divide the groups into All Management and FO, field management and coaches and then the players.

 

I think Management and FO gets 35% of the blame for doing such a poor job of handling the financial assets of the organization, personnel decisions including FA signings, the hiring of the wrong guy to manage, V and doing so for all the wrong reasons, they way they have handled their new GM and for the Machiavellian atmosphere they have created around the departure of Tito and Theo and the hiring of V. I think the players get 45% of the blame for playing like s***, for not even being able to pull together and play like a team and for generally acting like a bunch of spoiled rotten *******s. I think the Manager and Coaches get 15% of the blame for not even being able to make rudimentary decisions correctly and not really understanding how to use their players. Some of the issues there are clearly related to the fact that none of the coaching staff are V guys save one I believe. Frankly even 15% to the coaching staff may be a bit much when you consider you poorly the players have played and how badly management and the FO has performed.

 

50% players, with one or two exceptions the pitchers haven't shown up to play yet, 45% FO for not cleaning house completely a la the Flyers and for not empowering their new manager (whomever that was by letting him bring in his own coaches) and 5% the new manager. BTW any new manager (I am speaking now outside of baseball) who has had to come in and clean up a mess such as the one that existed in Boston will get the exact same reaction from those who wanted to maintain the status quo ante. What BV faces is typical and to be expected which is why from the getgo I thought this was a two year deal.

 

Bobby's failure is that he may actually want to be liked by these guys.

[Bellhorn04]

Anybody like to know the team's record in games started by Saltalamacchia since he joined the team? Going into tonight's game,

 

49 wins

61 losses

[SoxSport]

[/b]

 

That is just pure nonsense. They lost because their bull pen couldn't hold an 8 run lead. They obviously were holding Doubront to a pitch count of about 100 pitches. It's April, if your bull pen can't hold an 8 run lead in April then it isn't the manager's fault but the GM's fault because of the crap he signed, during off season. This trying to place blame on the manager when 99.9% of managers would have done the same is simply nuts.

 

The Globe poll this morning on who's to blame:

 

24% say the bullpen

 

23% say the ownership.

 

 

Not so nuts, pal.

[SoxFanForsyth]

The Globe poll this morning on who's to blame:

 

24% say the bullpen

 

23% say the ownership.

 

 

Not so nuts, pal.

 

Are you really going to try to sit here and tell us that it's the FO's fault that the bullpen couldn't get 9 outs without giving up 8 runs?? Are you kidding me?!?

 

The FO went out and acquired a proven closer in Bailey. They went out and got a guy in Melancon who had success last year as a late inning reliever, and don't give me that "He was a good player on a bad team" because Hunter Pence doesn't seem to be struggling in Philly. It's not the FO's fault that Bailey had a freak injury or that Melancon is throwing the ball flat and straight right now. It's not their fault that Aceves is overthrowing and is suddenly throwing with no movement after posting a 2.03 ERA out of the bullpen last year.

 

There is some blame to be placed on management and the FO, but they've got players who have been successful in the past.

 

I'm sorry, but the team is failing because the pitchers are failing. Buchholz isn't a 9.00 ERA guy. Lester isn't a 6.00 ERA guy. Aceves isn't an 18.00 ERA guy. Beckett isn't a 5.86 ERA guy. Morales isn't a 6.00 ERA guy. Melancon isn't a 49.50 ERA guy.

 

Adrian Gonzalez isn't a .715 OPS guy. Is Youkilis a .533 OPS guy?

 

This team is full of underachievers right now, and the FO had no reason to believe any of these things would happen based on their track record and history. That's a joke.

 

It's 90% on the players.

[iortiz]

Well, In the end, this would've been FO' fault. This ain't over... a lot of path still there. But if we fail this will be FO's fault since their plan wouldn't have work it out, as simple as that.

 

Some around here have put a lot great ideas with almost the same budget they used this offseason. They went like this and thus far the results are what several around here predicted; We have a very unbalanced team and we are paying for that. Hopefully they right the ship.

[a700hitter]

Are you really going to try to sit here and tell us that it's the FO's fault that the bullpen couldn't get 9 outs without giving up 8 runs?? Are you kidding me?!?

 

The FO went out and acquired a proven closer in Bailey. They went out and got a guy in Melancon who had success last year as a late inning reliever, and don't give me that "He was a good player on a bad team" because Hunter Pence doesn't seem to be struggling in Philly. It's not the FO's fault that Bailey had a freak injury or that Melancon is throwing the ball flat and straight right now. It's not their fault that Aceves is overthrowing and is suddenly throwing with no movement after posting a 2.03 ERA out of the bullpen last year.

 

There is some blame to be placed on management and the FO, but they've got players who have been successful in the past.

 

I'm sorry, but the team is failing because the pitchers are failing. Buchholz isn't a 9.00 ERA guy. Lester isn't a 6.00 ERA guy. Aceves isn't an 18.00 ERA guy. Beckett isn't a 5.86 ERA guy. Morales isn't a 6.00 ERA guy. Melancon isn't a 49.50 ERA guy.

 

Adrian Gonzalez isn't a .715 OPS guy. Is Youkilis a .533 OPS guy?

 

This team is full of underachievers right now, and the FO had no reason to believe any of these things would happen based on their track record and history. That's a joke.

 

It's 90% on the players.

You are ignoring the fundamental flaw in this team by attributing the current state of affairs to under performance. Yes, everyone on the staff is under performing. Buchh and Lest will come around, and even though the bullpen will not continue to pitch to an 18 ERA, the difference between the bullpen and the rest of the team is that we have no talent in the pen-- no talent, no experience and no track record of accomplishment. That adds up to a big gaping hole. Youk will hit, AGon will hit, Lester and Buch will pitch well. They all have talent. There is no talent in the pen. The late innings are a parade of pigs to the mound. If one of our relievers gets 3 outs without giving up a run, we should thank God, because they are not good major league pitchers. They stink. The problem needs to be addressed with new players. The bullpen has no chance of righting itself unless Bard goes into the closer role. That much is clear.

[SoxSport]

It's 90% on the players.

 

 

Read the Globe blame poll.

 

The readers have the bullpen and the ownership at the top--by a large margin.

 

 

When a player sucks--it's the player's fault.

 

When a team sucks--it's the management's fault.

[a700hitter]

Are you really going to try to sit here and tell us that it's the FO's fault that the bullpen couldn't get 9 outs without giving up 8 runs?? Are you kidding me?!?

They should have known that they did nt adequately replace Papelbon and Bard with Melancon and Bailey. Even if you call Bailey and Papelbon a wash, which is a tremendous overstatement, Melancon as a 8th inning guy was a pipe dream. People who believed that he could replace Bard based on 1/2 a year of stats with Houston obviously never saw the guy pitch. He has nothing. He may not even be as good as Albers. The poorly constructed bullpen is 100% on the FO. The injury to Bailey didnot cause the entire pen to suck. Also, if you want to talk about the misfortunes suffered by the FO due to Bailey's injury, you need to be fair and acknowledge that Doubront has surpassed their expectations in claiming a rotation spot. If he hadn't been such a surprise, Aeves would be the 5th starter and the pen would be even worse if that were possible.

[jung]

In my case I have lumped the FO in with Upper Management because I don't think it possible to separate them at least in the Sox organization, thanks to Mr LL in the main. In my view, that group together in the way it has handled the departures of Theo and Tito, the Managerial hiring, the entire s*** storm that is V, PR in general combined with ill advised signings that have strapped this team with financial obligations preventing it from making additional moves puts them in for 35% of the blame.

 

Had I chosen to segregate the FO I would not be able to assign that much blame to them. However in the whacky world of the Red Sox, segregating the FO is not possible. I fail to see how in fact we can select guys like Theo and BC is assign significant amounts of blame to them. They are birds of a feather neither having much organizational room beyond being allowed to select which hand they use to whip their asses.

[Flynnatic10]

I blame Julio Lugo.

[Dojji]

http://freefall.purrsia.com/ff1000/fv00949.gif

 

Is there anything more useless than assigning the blame?

[Jacoby_Ellsbury]

I blame Dojji.

 

It's all your f***ing fault, Dojji!