Ellsbury's injury

[ellsburyforMVP]

Josh Hamilton couldn't even play AA ball on crack' date=' what an underachiever.[/quote']

 

:lol::lol:

[a700hitter]

The problem with this opinion, and it's really frustrating, is that people who buy into this old school, play injured style of baseball is that if you want a guy to play with a subluxed shoulder, he goes out there and he struggles and he sucks and he hits .160 and can't play defense, and then the same guys who bark about how Yaz never hit the DL are the same ones screaming about how he sucks. PA and what is he doing out there.

 

The game is a lot faster now and the talent level is significantly better than it was 40-50 years ago. You can't compare the players today with the old players. I read the other day that if the 2012 Astros would absolutely crush the 27 Yankees because those days there was no such thing as a curveball and the pitching is lights out better. You just can't compare innings when people were throwing 360 innings a season, or what people were able to play through in the old school baseball days.

Fifty percent of Yaz was better than 100% of his bench replacement. Also, the opposition never knew how badly he was hurting, so Yaz in the lineup made the pitchers pitch differently to those around him. I believe that 50% of Carl Crawford or Ellsbury is better than DMac hands down. There's no question about it. Plus, Ellsbury and Crawford would bring the speed factor that DMac doesn't have. No, the sitting out when your injured crap is all about preserving stats for the next contract. Better to not play than play below optimum level for the next contract.

 

Roger Maris played with a broken wrist one year, because taking him out of the lineup would have resulted in Mantle being intentionally walked all season long. It worked. Maris was still considered a threat, and the opposition just thought he was slumping.

 

As for carping if the injured guy does poorly, you are addressing that to the wrong guy. If a star plays injured, I applaud him no matter what he does. I realize that big stars play better banged up than the average bench player. What would you rather see a banged up Pedroia or a healthy Punto. Star players get paid mega bucks to play, and IMO, if they are physically able to play, they should play. They owe it to the team. I don't care what JD Drew's OPS was in the 110 games that he played each season if my team didn't win and we had to play bums like DMac et al causing us to lose games. That's just an example-- and not a factual one, but it is meant to illustrate a point. If I spend hundreds of dollars taking my kids to see their hero Pedroia, I don't want to see Punto playing because Pedroia has a tooth ache. Again, this is hypothetical. Players have a responsibility to perform for the fans. Some fans say screw that. The players don't have to play for the fans. The fans that say that never buy tickets and never take their kids to the games. Players used to have that mentality that they played for the team and the fans. Today, they almost exclusively play for themselves and they pamper themselves. It's just my opinion.

 

When I was a little kid, I wanted to see Mantle and Mays. They were both at the end of their careers, but when you went to the ballpark, they were almost assuredly in the lineup. Mantle was severely injured almost all of his career, but he put on the uniform and played if he could walk. I remember seeing him play. It was a thrill. He was a shell of himself, but still better than anyone on the Yankee bench, and benches were much deeper in those days. I remember Mantle, but I couldn't tell you the name of his backup.

[a700hitter]

The game is a lot faster now and the talent level is significantly better than it was 40-50 years ago. You can't compare the players today with the old players.

This has nothing to do with the argument. Everything is relative. Playing injured has nothing to do with talent level.

[SoxSport]

3 or 4 games for Yaz.

 

We're not talking about the athlete here. We're talking about the management. The current management takes forever to bring a guy back from injury. The difference is policy.

[a700hitter]

We're not talking about the athlete here. We're talking about the management. The current management takes forever to bring a guy back from injury. The difference is policy.

Yes, it is management and agents and the union. It all combines to create these prima donas.

[NZSox]

Anyone got a link to most recent update on Ellsbury's injury? Really miss his contributions.

 

It can't be overstated how much it must be hurting this team's chances to lose last season's runner up MVP.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Anyone got a link to most recent update on Ellsbury's injury? Really miss his contributions.

 

It can't be overstated how much it must be hurting this team's chances to lose last season's runner up MVP.

 

Not sure where I read it today, but it seems like the end of may ( if they really want to push him ) until around June 7th is the expected time for him to be ready

[SoxFanForsyth]

Not sure where I read it today' date=' but it seems like the end of may ( if they really want to push him ) until around June 7th is the expected time for him to be ready[/quote']

 

According to Valentine, Ellsbury has started to do agility drills, which is apparently the next step in the program.

 

Jackso - Do you know what kind of a rehab program one would go through with a subluxed shoulder? Agility training is obviously going to be an early stage step, but what kind of a timetable would we be looking at here?

 

Originally, I remember a 6-8 week timetable was discussed. This Saturday will be 4 weeks from the date of the injury. So are we looking at a late May, early June return to baseball activities?

 

June 2nd would be 7 weeks from injury. Add a week of rehab games, and he could be back by June 9th. That'd be a big boost.

 

Could it be here? :thumbsup:

[redsoxfan3]

The earliest Ells can return is May 25th. That is six weeks after the injury. I don't think it will be on May 25th because they will probably want him to get some rehab games in. I think early June is a realistic return for Ells. I hope it is sooner rather than later.

[ellsburyforMVP]

Could it be here? :thumbsup:

 

Hahahahahaha......... I remember sitting there wondering where in the f%^^:lol:

[XxNicki MinajxX]

ELlsbury backs soon? good good!

[RedSoxFan84]

I understand both sides of the injured players in the lineup debate, but I think that it is being over-simplified here. Would you be pissed if you took your kids to a game to see Pedroia but he was sitting out with a toothache (as was the example given)? Of course you would. However, there is a vast difference between playing with a toothache and playing with a busted shoulder. A toothache is just annoying pain that you can deal with before or after the game with asprin and a trip the dentist. There is no risk of causing further injury. With a busted shoulder (yes, that is the correct medical term), you are risking causing further damage to the shoulder and/or injury to other areas by over-compensating for the shoulder, all of which could end up with a 6 week injury break with a healthy comeback turning into a more severe injury where the player could miss significantly more time, even the season in certain cases.

 

Basically, I think if you're hurting but you're not risking further and more severe injury by playing, then you should play. Now I'm no doctor, but in Ellsbury's case, how pissed would we be if he played through it and ended up with a serious long-term injury that kept him out for the rest of the season or something?

[a700hitter]

I understand both sides of the injured players in the lineup debate, but I think that it is being over-simplified here. Would you be pissed if you took your kids to a game to see Pedroia but he was sitting out with a toothache (as was the example given)? Of course you would. However, there is a vast difference between playing with a toothache and playing with a busted shoulder. A toothache is just annoying pain that you can deal with before or after the game with asprin and a trip the dentist. There is no risk of causing further injury. With a busted shoulder (yes, that is the correct medical term), you are risking causing further damage to the shoulder and/or injury to other areas by over-compensating for the shoulder, all of which could end up with a 6 week injury break with a healthy comeback turning into a more severe injury where the player could miss significantly more time, even the season in certain cases.

 

Basically, I think if you're hurting but you're not risking further and more severe injury by playing, then you should play. Now I'm no doctor, but in Ellsbury's case, how pissed would we be if he played through it and ended up with a serious long-term injury that kept him out for the rest of the season or something?

There are injuries that prevent you from playing. There are injuries which will get worse if you play. You shouldn't play if that is the case. Then there are injuries that you can play with and playing will not cause additional damage. If the latter is the case, you should be playing. Too many guys don't play in that situation and wait until they are fully recovered. That pisses me off when it is a highly paid star. Football players play all the time with busted ribs and healing shoulder separations and people are beating the s*** out of them. The difference is that their contracts are not guaranteed.

[RedSoxFan84]

I agree completely there. If you have an injury but playing wont make it worse, then you should play, as long as you're still able to contribute effectively. I don't understand all the details of Ellsbury's injury, so I don't know if he is or isn't capable of playing at an effective level or not, nor whether his injury would get worse from playing or not.

[jung]

The Sox are getting to be downright Patriot like lately either because they want to handle injury situations like this or because this is another area where the Sox have gotten to be a bit dysfunctional.

 

I would say that it is hard for us to understand what Ells could or could not do. The Sox provided a description of the injury but we don't even know if the Sox provided precise and accurate information. Just considering the location of the injury and the amount of time Ells will have been out when he does finally come back, would lead me to suspect that it was a pretty severe injury. It looked pretty severe when it happened. In fact that worries the heck out of me. I suspect Ells is going to come back pretty slowly. I only hope that at some point this year Ells returns to 100% of the player that we had before that guy landed on his shoulder.

 

Football really does not provide a good equivalent example here I do not think. For one thing, you have 10 other guys out on the field with you at all times and you are all really working as a unit to make a play. So your injury can be masked better because your teammates can provide you more support. Also something like a shoulder can be wrapped and bound to the point where while it will restrict motion, the player can often still play.

 

Your teammates really cannot help you in baseball and you really have to have complete freedom of movement in order to perform at all. In addition although I am not a doctor, it is hard for me to imagine that you don't run the risk of at least prolonging the injury trying to swing a baseball bat with an injured shoulder. I just hope Ells does not end up tweaking his shoulder even trying to take a cautious approach.

[Celticdonnelly]

When is Jacoby due to return?

[kapsis21]

beginning of june maybe.

[redsoxfan3]

When is Jacoby due to return?

 

I think the earliest he can return is June 13th. He was transferred from the 15 day DL to the 60 day DL a couple of days ago. Hopefully he will be ready to return right around that time.

[redsoxfan3]

Also, with Ellsbury coming back mid-June, here are some other injury updates.

 

Kalish- possible June return. He would probably start out in the minors.

Crawford- possibly in July around the All-Star Break.

Cook- possibly at the end of this month.

Bailey- possibly in August.

Carpenter- possibly in June.

Jenks- possible return right after the All-Star Break in July.

McDonald- the end of this month.

Youkilis- any day now.

Matsuzaka- soon, but playing time in majors depends on how well he progresses in AAA.

 

These are just estimates and can change due to setbacks.

[a700hitter]

Also, with Ellsbury coming back mid-June, here are some other injury updates.

 

Kalish- possible June return. He would probably start out in the minors.

Crawford- possibly in July around the All-Star Break.

Cook- possibly at the end of this month.

Bailey- possibly in August.

Carpenter- possibly in June.

Jenks- possible return right after the All-Star Break in July.

McDonald- the end of this month.

Youkilis- any day now.

Matsuzaka- soon, but playing time in majors depends on how well he progresses in AAA.

 

These are just estimates and can change due to setbacks.

I think Kalish would need at least a month in the minors before they would consider calling him up.

[mvp 78]

Kalish may need the whole season in Pawtucket.

[a700hitter]

Kalish may need the whole season in Pawtucket.

^ This is the most likely scenario. He is not going to be in the mix this season for the big club. He hasn't played anywhere in more than a year.

[SoxFanForsyth]

^ This is the most likely scenario. He is not going to be in the mix this season for the big club. He hasn't played anywhere in more than a year.

 

Not to mention that Sweeney and Ross look like they are going to be an extremely valuable platoon in RF. So it's not like we are putting out a couple Darnell out in RF against all pitchers. Kalish has time to get back in shape. He will be the RF in 2013, for sure. Along with Iggy, WMB, and Lavarnway. Could Barnes make a few starts for the Sox in 2013? Either way, this team will have a nice infusion of young, high caliber talent to go along with the veterans.

[jung]

If there is some lesson in the Nava, WMB experience it is in the value of having some balance between young players and aging stars. These guys make most of the regulars look like they belong in some senior league. Suddenly beer and chicken makes much more sense for that crew:D:D

[SoxSport]

If there is some lesson in the Nava' date=' WMB experience it is in the value of having some balance between young players and aging stars. These guys make most of the regulars look like they belong in some senior league. Suddenly bear and chicken makes much more sense for that crew:D:D[/quote']

 

True, but there has always been a "pecking order" on the Red Sox. Usually salary-related.

 

The management hasn't really paid much attention to winning since '07. They haven't always fielded the best teams possible--and that's still true.

 

Look at last year. They threw Lackey out there start after start to get bombed--and then they disclose the guy had a bad elbow.

[a700hitter]

True, but there has always been a "pecking order" on the Red Sox. Usually salary-related.

 

The management hasn't really paid much attention to winning since '07. They haven't always fielded the best teams possible--and that's still true.

 

Look at last year. They threw Lackey out there start after start to get bombed--and then they disclose the guy had a bad elbow.

I agree. To have rolled out those two bums Lackey and Wakefield game after game as the team was going through a record setting collapse and 3 months later they told us that the solution to our starting pitching problems were in-house. If so, why the hell didn't we see them in September instead of forfeiting all of those games. That just makes no sense.

[Dojji]

Which of the pitchers who are part of the solution now, would have been able to start last year? Doubront was too green, and Bard was in the pen and crumbling along with eveyone else.

[SoxFanForsyth]

Which of the pitchers who are part of the solution now' date=' would have been able to start last year? Doubront was too green, and Bard was in the pen and crumbling along with eveyone else.[/quote']

 

I agree. Not to mention you're not going to stretch out Bard after he's been throwing in the 8th inning all season.

 

I can see an argument for Aceves, but at the same time, Aceves threw 25 innings in September to a 1.80 ERA. He threw in each of the final 4 games of the season.

 

Doubront, meanwhile, had a 6.10 ERA overall, but was one of the few bright spots out of the bullpen, posting a 3.00 ERA from 9/8 - the end of the season.

 

Hindsight is 20/20. We can go back to these threads last year. I can guarantee you nobody was calling for Bard or Doubront to start games. And Aceves was the only reliable arm out of the bullpen, as Pap had a 7.71 ERA and 2 BS in his final 3 SVO.

[jung]

Well if we remember Theo admitted that not trying to find another arm for the later part of last season was a mistake. I got the impression from the way he framed that discussion that there was nothing behind that decision like a lack of willingness to get somebody. He made it sound like he just flat made a mistake. So I think he basically told us what happened. He screwed up.

[Bellhorn04]

Also, with Ellsbury coming back mid-June, here are some other injury updates.

Jenks- possible return right after the All-Star Break in July.

 

Jenks? You're kidding right. I figured his next appearance in the ballpahk would be to play Santa Claus for 'Christmas at Fenway'.