Bard to Rotation a Mistake?

[JohnGreen2004]

I'm not convinced that it's a mistake just yet. Bard's ERA in the games he has started this spring is 2.70, with a 1.10 WHIP. The walks are high but the hits are very low. I think Bobby V needs to at least give Bard a couple turns in the rotation come April. If he succeeds then the Sox have a starter they are paying $505,000 and if he fails they have a setup man or closer they are paying $505,000. Why not take a chance on him now?

[example1]

Bard had better get a thicker skin. It isn't about what is best for Bard or being fair to Bard. Somehow along the way perhaps before BV even got to the job someone led Bard believe he would be a starter. He was entitled to the job. That kind of attitude got this team in trouble. There are several candidates for the 4 and 5 th starters role. It is what is fair to all and what is best for the team. If Bard get a starters job under BV it will because he has earned it and is mentally tough enough to keep it. My advice to Bard is stop feeling sorry for yourself pull yourself together and pitch.

 

People rightly told Bard he would either start or close. Every established setup guy in baseball has the same expectation. This isn't about him being spoiled or showing some amount of entitlement; 1st round picks with sub 1.00 WHIPs who throw 100mph, with success in the toughest division in baseball, on the 2nd richest team in baseball, expect to eventually make it in a marquee position and not be dicked around for no apparent reason.

 

Somehow, Bard (of all people) is being lumped in with the players who shat on this team in 2011. From everything I've heard, he's a hardworking kid who has taken his pitched very well for this team.

[Dojji]

People rightly told Bard he would either start or close. Every established setup guy in baseball has the same expectation. This isn't about him being spoiled or showing some amount of entitlement; 1st round picks with sub 1.00 WHIPs who throw 100mph, with success in the toughest division in baseball, on the 2nd richest team in baseball, expect to eventually make it in a marquee position and not be dicked around for no apparent reason.

 

Somehow, Bard (of all people) is being lumped in with the players who shat on this team in 2011. From everything I've heard, he's a hardworking kid who has taken his pitched very well for this team.

 

10.64 September ERA

 

Bard, of all people. SHOULD be lumped in. It was his arm falling off that was a big part of why we blew some big leads that kept us out of the playoffs. He blew three leads that resulted in critical losses that month, including a critical blown save against the Yankees.

 

His "highlight" for the month was probably coughing up 5 runs in an eventual 8-7 loss against Toronto on 9/7, including 2 big flies

 

He surrendered nearly as many runs in September alone (14) as he had in the entire year through August 31 (15)

 

it would not be entirely inaccurate to say that Daniel Bard *was* the September collapse.

[User Name]

10.64 September ERA

 

Bard, of all people. SHOULD be lumped in. It was his arm falling off that was a big part of why we blew some big leads that kept us out of the playoffs. He blew three leads that resulted in critical losses that month, including a critical blown save against the Yankees.

 

So Bard needs to be held accountable because he became Tito's binky in September and got overused to the point where he became ineffective? That's horrible logic.

[Dojji]

Bard appeared in 70 games in 2011. That's really pretty standard for a late inning reliever.

 

And Bard's September troubles began in literally his first appearance that month. He'd pitched the night before, but before that had had about 4 days rest.

 

Bard wasn't overpitched, and he didn't pitch that extensively in September (his second least number of appearances in a given month all year). He just fell apart, nothing more or less to it than that.

[User Name]

Bard appeared in 70 games in 2011. That's really pretty standard for a late inning reliever.

 

And Bard's September troubles began in literally his first appearance that month. He'd pitched the night before, but before that had had about 4 days rest.

 

 

So Bard needs to be held accountable because he became Tito's binky in September and got overused to the point where he became ineffective? That's horrible logic.

[Dojji]

Yep, and he wasn't overworked, nor was he underrested. He became ineffective despite a very normal usage pattern for a setup man.

[Station 13]

Yep' date=' and he wasn't overworked, nor was he underrested. He became ineffective despite a very normal usage pattern for a setup man.[/quote']

 

Bard has pitch in more games and inning than any AL reliever since 2010.

[User Name]

Not at all.

 

The amount of high-leverage and back-to-back appearances Bard was in was not "normal usage pattern", specially for him.

[Station 13]

So Bard needs to be held accountable because he became Tito's binky in September and got overused to the point where he became ineffective? That's horrible logic.

 

It takes several set up guys to get it done. He can't be run out there for 20 games a season of pitching 1+ inning.

[seabeachfred]

10.64 September ERA

 

Bard, of all people. SHOULD be lumped in. It was his arm falling off that was a big part of why we blew some big leads that kept us out of the playoffs. He blew three leads that resulted in critical losses that month, including a critical blown save against the Yankees.

 

His "highlight" for the month was probably coughing up 5 runs in an eventual 8-7 loss against Toronto on 9/7, including 2 big flies

 

He surrendered nearly as many runs in September alone (14) as he had in the entire year through August 31 (15)

 

it would not be entirely inaccurate to say that Daniel Bard *was* the September collapse.

 

Dojji, I'm beginning to become convinced that Bard is a candy ass. When the team got off to a rocky start last season he was right in the middle of it, getting his ass reamed and losing games. When the team collapsed in September he played a leading role in that. It might be true his arm was tired and that could have been a legitimate excuse but we have to keep in mind that on nine occasions he was entrusted with a tie or lead and proceeded to blow the game away. The guy is no Craig Hansen, thank God, but I wonder about his heart, guts and balls.

[User Name]

Dojji' date=' I'm beginning to become convinced that Bard is a candy ass. When the team got off to a rocky start last season he was right in the middle of it, getting his ass reamed and losing games. When the team collapsed in September he played a leading role in that. It might be true his arm was tired and that could have been a legitimate excuse but we have to keep in mind that on nine occasions he was entrusted with a tie or lead and proceeded to blow the game away. The guy is no Craig Hansen, thank God, but I wonder about his heart, guts and balls.[/quote']

 

Really Fred? Aren't you one of the leading detractors of "FrancoMa"? So doesn't it seem like this could be a problem of mismanagement on his part? As did almost everyone else in the media?

[Dojji]

Bard has pitch in more games and inning than any AL reliever since 2010.

 

Love how you qualify that.

 

Aceves threw 113 innings last year. Even if you want to assign him 6 innings for each of his 4 starts, that's still more innings of relief than Bard.

 

Ramram and MDC both pitched more than Bard in 2008 alone.

 

Melancon matched his numbers for Houston last year.

 

His usage pattern. Is not. That unusual.

[example1]

Watching people diminish Bard's importance to this team with every post... sad.

 

Papelbon got his ass kissed as he left the Sox after years of implying he would never sign with them unless they overpaid, but Bard is treated like a pansy who should be in middle relief, if he can just prove he can handle it.

[Dojji]

If anything, it highlights his importance to the staff.

 

When he fell apart, the team fell apart.

 

If he wasn't important to the staff, his ineffectiveness wouldn't have sucked that much.

[example1]

If anything, it highlights his importance to the staff.

 

When he fell apart, the team fell apart.

 

If he wasn't important to the staff, his ineffectiveness wouldn't have sucked that much.

 

The team fell apart AND he fell apart. he wasn't the catalyst. He wasn't fried chicken and he wasn't drinking in the clubhouse. He blew a few games after being one of the best relievers in baseball for the past few years.

[jung]

Well if Sean MacAdams has it right maybe we have our answer. MacAdams reports tonight that both Aceves and Bard will not be in the rotation at the same time.

 

He goes on to report the the decision will hinge on which of the two is the more important to the bullpen. If that is the case then I would bet that the rotation will be:

Lester

Beckett

Buch

Doubront

Bard

 

with Aceves joining the other pen mates which I guess now includes Padilla.

[Elktonnick]

Well if Sean MacAdams has it right maybe we have our answer. MacAdams reports tonight that both Aceves and Bard will not be in the rotation at the same time.

 

He goes on to report the the decision will hinge on which of the two is the more important to the bullpen. If that is the case then I would bet that the rotation will be:

Lester

Beckett

Buch

Doubront

Bard

 

with Aceves joining the other pen mates which I guess now includes Padilla.

 

I agree with McAdam. I always have. That's why it isn't about BV it what is good for the team. It comes down to Aceves and Bard it always has. If Melancon were more effective it would make it more likely that Bard would be a starter. But the more ineffective Melancon is thought to be the more likely Bard returns to the pen. The only other joker in the deck is they probably don't need to make the final decision on Bard's fate until he gets one or two starts during the regular season.

[Elktonnick]

People rightly told Bard he would either start or close. Every established setup guy in baseball has the same expectation. This isn't about him being spoiled or showing some amount of entitlement; 1st round picks with sub 1.00 WHIPs who throw 100mph, with success in the toughest division in baseball, on the 2nd richest team in baseball, expect to eventually make it in a marquee position and not be dicked around for no apparent reason.

 

Somehow, Bard (of all people) is being lumped in with the players who shat on this team in 2011. From everything I've heard, he's a hardworking kid who has taken his pitched very well for this team.

 

He wasn't "dicked" around for no apparent reason. The reasons were there for us all to see. He walks too many guys; he has only two established pitches. A starter won't last long just with a 100 mph fastball if that's all he throws. A starter has to go two and three times through an order to be effective. Bard has yet to prove he can do that.

[Bellhorn04]

In the last game, after the Jays scored their third run in the second, Bard's last twelve at-bats went like this. And this was hitters getting their second and third at-bats:

 

Groundout

Strikeout

Popout

Single

Popout

Groundout

Lineout

Groundout

Groundout

Groundout

Flyout

Strikeout

[Elktonnick]

In the last game, after the Jays scored their third run in the second, Bard's last twelve at-bats went like this. And this was hitters getting their second and third at-bats:

 

Groundout

Strikeout

Popout

Single

Popout

Groundout

Lineout

Groundout

Groundout

Groundout

Flyout

Strikeout

 

Yes Bard retired his last eight in a row as I recall. He pitched wel although he threw way too many fastballs which he couldn't do an entire year.l. Now let's see him do it again and again. If he does it a couple times more and holds down the walks he gets the job. Assuming Aceves doesn't pitch better. That last outing was the only time he has done it though.

[JohnGreen2004]

In the last game, after the Jays scored their third run in the second, Bard's last twelve at-bats went like this. And this was hitters getting their second and third at-bats:

 

Groundout

Strikeout

Popout

Single

Popout

Groundout

Lineout

Groundout

Groundout

Groundout

Flyout

Strikeout

Exactly, Bards problem this spring has been the "one bad inning" and walks. I think Bobby V needs to give Bard a fair shot to prove himself now. If he succeeds then he becomes a decent/good starter under team control for a few more years, if he doesn't then he goes back to the pen.

 

If he is successful it could save the Red Sox some of that cap space they've talked so much about this offseason. Instead of paying upwards of 10 million for a starter in '13 when Dice-K departs and Lackey is still ineffective, they could have a very good bargain with Bard. The worst case scenario is he loses a couple games in April and goes back to the pen but IMO now is the time to give him an extensive look as a starter.

[Dojji]

The team fell apart AND he fell apart. he wasn't the catalyst. He wasn't fried chicken and he wasn't drinking in the clubhouse. He blew a few games after being one of the best relievers in baseball for the past few years.

 

I don't believe the fried chicken and beer thing was the *cause* of anything.

 

It was the symptom of an attitude in the clubhouse, nothing more. And just because a given player didn't show the obvious symptom didn't mean he didn't have the disease. you don't fail that badly without everyone chipping in.

[jacksonianmarch]

How can anyone be so sure Bard wasnt a part of the clubhouse spiral? We werent there. What you can definitely say, is he was a major part of the standings spiral in September. He lost 4 games in September and blew 3 saves. For a guy who only appeared in 11 games, he was the guy who gave up the lead in 4 of them for good. That's horrific

[jacksonianmarch]

From the sounds of it, they are definitely giving Doubront a slot in the rotation and letting him sink or swim. I think Aceves actually slots into that 4 spot for now and eventually ends up back in the pen with Bard. That pen would be pretty solid, though, with Aceves, Bard and Bailey locking it down. If Melancon could do anything in 2012, then it'd be a plus

[Station 13]

At this point I think Bard should be shelve from starting. Revisit the idea next year after they can established a #4 starter. This give the Sox more flexibility with Bard without feeling crunch.

[jacksonianmarch]

Exactly station. It is fine for your #5 starter to be an experiment. He can be skipped if struggling due to the off days and can be moved up the pantheon if lighting it up. Leaving 2 spots to the wind is a great way to tank a season. It forced your top 3 to be on point all season long, and with a guy like Buch in the 3 hole coming off a spinal fracture, you arent sure what you're gonna get.

[jacksonianmarch]

BTW, the Angels are said to be the front-runner for Oswalt. That rotation would be deadly

[User Name]

How can anyone be so sure Bard wasnt a part of the clubhouse spiral? We werent there. What you can definitely say' date=' is he was a major part of the standings spiral in September. He lost 4 games in September and blew 3 saves. For a guy who only appeared in 11 games, he was the guy who gave up the lead in 4 of them for good. That's horrific[/quote']

 

How can we be so sure he was? You're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

[example1]

At this point I think Bard should be shelve from starting. Revisit the idea next year after they can established a #4 starter. This give the Sox more flexibility with Bard without feeling crunch.

 

I just don't see how Bard is MORE questionable than whatever option they have as a #5 currently. If Aceves or Doubront are more qualified to start then they should be able to slot into the #4 spot.

 

I actually have no problem with Bard in the pen. He should give them a very deep group out there. I just want to make sure he's been given the opportunity to see what he can do as a SP.