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Meh

By Meh
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iortiz Worcester Red Sox

iortiz

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I found out curios that these guys do not put neither of our pitchers as #1 in their respective categories.
jacksonianmarch GOAT

jacksonianmarch

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I found out curios that these guys do not put neither of our pitchers as #1 in their respective categories.

 

Beckett had a better yr than CC in production, but not in innings and he's a toss up on a yr to yr basis. Price is better than Lester. And Pineda had better production and has better stuff than Hellickson and Buchholz. Doesnt mean the sox rotation is bad, just that their question marks or matchups arent what they seem.

Palodios Greenville Drive

Palodios

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Price is better than Lester.

 

I do not agree with this at all. Lester has a career ERA+ of 128. Price has an ERA+ of 117. You could make the case that they're on the same level... but better? Not even close.

Meh First Round Pick

Meh

Verified Member
Posted
  • Author
Posted
That has the Jays closer to the Sox than the Sox are to the Rays' date=' do you think that is legit?[/quote']

 

Jays are sneaky good. I actually think they've got a better chance to finish second than the red sox. They may not be better right now, but come august I think they will be.

Station 13 MVP

Station 13

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Jays are sneaky good. I actually think they've got a better chance to finish second than the red sox. They may not be better right now' date=' but come august I think they will be.[/quote']

 

The Jays will be good in a few years, just not anywhere more than 4th at the moment.

User Name Boston Red Sox

User Name

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Jays are sneaky good. I actually think they've got a better chance to finish second than the red sox. They may not be better right now' date=' but come august I think they will be.[/quote']

 

Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

If the Jays have a better chance than the Sox to finish second, i may just start eating fast food to lose weight.

User Name Boston Red Sox

User Name

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
I do not agree with this at all. Lester has a career ERA+ of 128. Price has an ERA+ of 117. You could make the case that they're on the same level... but better? Not even close.

 

Lester has been exactly on the same level as Sabathia the last couple of years, apparently expecting some objectivity is a fool's pursuit.

User Name Boston Red Sox

User Name

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Sabathia WAR over last 3 seasons- 18.7

Lester WAR over last 3 seasons- 15.8

 

Sabathia has been good for almost a win per season more than Lester.

 

Solely because of IP, which factors heavily into the formula. Funny because you've said multiple times WAR is not the "be all-end all" but it's an overwhelmingly accurate tool when it helps your argument. Interesting.

 

Lester ERA+ last three seasons: 136.

 

CC ERA+ last three seasons: 136.

User Name Boston Red Sox

User Name

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Another note:

 

The BB-Reference version of WAR, which uses a formula that is only slightly tweaked from the FG formula, has Lester and CC at the following values for the last three years:

 

Lester: 15.4 WAR

 

CC: 16.2 WAR.

 

0.8 WAR difference for a formula that's not supposed to be accurate to the decimal level, all the while including Lester's worst full year at the MLB level, and Sabathia's best.

jacksonianmarch GOAT

jacksonianmarch

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Lets put this all to rest right now...

 

CC 2009-2011:

705IP 636H 249ER 202BB 624K 1.18WHIP 3.17ERA 3.1K/BB 8.0K/9IP

 

Lester 2009-2011

603IP 519H 226ER 222BB 632K 1.23WHIP 3.37ERA 2.8K/BB 9.4K/9IP

 

CC threw over 100 more innings in 3 seasons, which is HUGE. He has a lower WHIP, ERA, and K/BB. The only thing Lester has on him is K rate. He's less durable, less accurate and allows more baserunners. Lester is CLOSE, but he's not CC.

 

The ERA isnt a great indicator, but the WHIP, Innings and BB rate are huge.

jacksonianmarch GOAT

jacksonianmarch

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
Not spread out over three seasons it isn't.

 

Face it, Lester is right around the same league as CC, and with potential for improvement to boot.

 

He's 28, he's in his prime. And no, he isnt "right around the same league", he's in the class below. I showed you the numbers, 30+ innings PER YEAR more than Lester with a better WHIP and lower walk rate. Cmon man, he's close, but not in the same league. An ace must give you innings, Lester does that, but not the way CC does

User Name Boston Red Sox

User Name

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
He's 28' date=' he's in his prime. And no, he isnt "right around the same league", he's in the class below. I showed you the numbers, 30+ innings PER YEAR more than Lester with a better WHIP and lower walk rate. Cmon man, he's close, but not in the same league. An ace must give you innings, Lester does that, but not the way CC does[/quote']

 

That's a subjective take on things to strengthen your argument. They are both what you could consider an "Ace".

 

They are both similar statistically. While CC is better, which i am not arguing against, magnifying the difference between the two accomplishes nothing.

Meh First Round Pick

Meh

Verified Member
Posted
  • Author
Posted
Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

If the Jays have a better chance than the Sox to finish second, i may just start eating fast food to lose weight.

 

first off you took that out of context, I never said eating fast food will make you lose weight. I said if you eat it in moderation it wont make you fat. Which it will not...

 

Second their lineup could be sick, joey bats, lawrie and then guys like escobar, snider, rasmus, jp, lind and johnson they get overlooked. They have a sick farm system and their payroll isn't maxed out. They could promote guys or make deals. They could add a matt cain if the giants sell or a grienke, etc. I brought this up with Guardians fans, fans who aren't in our division and they all agreed, most of them even said they'd finish 1st ahead of the Yankees.

User Name Boston Red Sox

User Name

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted
first off you took that out of context' date=' I never said eating fast food will make you lose weight. I said if you eat it in moderation it wont make you fat. Which it will not...[/quote']

 

Sure.

 

Second their lineup could be sick, joey bats, lawrie and then guys like escobar, snider, rasmus, jp, lind and johnson they get overlooked. They have a sick farm system and their payroll isn't maxed out. They could promote guys or make deals. They could add a matt cain if the giants sell or a grienke, etc. I brought this up with Guardians fans, fans who aren't in our division and they all agreed, most of them even said they'd finish 1st ahead of the Yankees.

 

A) Your Guardians fans don't know what they're talking about.

 

B ) Your scenario proposes a lot of "ifs" understates the difference in pitching (Romero and ???) and disregards the fact that both the Red Sox and Yankees were miles better offensively last year.

 

Your point is mostly conjecture of what "could" happen and is not grounded in reality. The Red Sox also have a bunch of prospects who could be ready by mid-season. Don't mean they'll be up.

RedSox_Ruszkowski College Ball

RedSox_Ruszkowski

Verified Member
Posted
Posted
.... I brought this up with Guardians fans' date=' fans who aren't in our division and they all agreed, most of them even said they'd finish 1st ahead of the Yankees.[/quote']

 

well....now i believe it! if an indian's fan said it, well, it must be true. :dunno: in all reality, the jays will do what they always do... start out pretty hot, fizzle during the main stretch, then when nothing matters again, play some more good ball at the end of the season. it's true, they could have a pretty good team in years to come, but it's still going to be a few years. look how long it took the rays to be competitors.

SoxFanForsyth All-Star

SoxFanForsyth

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

CC and Lester are a wash. ERA+ are the exact same over the past 3 years.

 

To be honest, if we're looking at 2012, I'd much rather have Lester. He's younger and has fewer innings logged on his arm in the past 3 years. He's good for 200+ IP a year at an ERA of around 3.30. He's younger than CC, too.

 

Talent is a wash, as indicated by ERA+, ERA, FIP, etc. Going forward, I'll take the guy with the lower innings over the past few years.

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